What is the "Deal" with (Upcoming) 4K? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 06-14-2014, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the "Deal" with (Upcoming) 4K?

Not positive is this was the right place to post this question, but I was wondering if anyone had any information on how the next generation of home theater -- i.e. "4K" or "Ultra High Def" -- is going to work, specifically with regard to physical hardware and how it relates to what we already own...

In other words, when Blu-ray came along, the players upscaled -- or were "backward compatible with -- standard DVDs, bringing them up (as best they could) to match the best resolution of our displays (in my case, it's 1080p because I'm running a Sony SXRD rear projection screen). I know many 4K and "4K ready" displays have arrived on the scene, but how is all this going to work...if native 4K content comes via physical media, are we going to have to buy "Ultra HD" players to replace our Blu-ray players? If so, will these machines be "double backward compatible" -- meaning, will they upscale both DVD AND Blu-ray to 4K? What about our A/V receivers...will these need to be replaced too to pass the higher resolution streams and, inevitably, the new surround codecs that come on 4K discs (if this happens)?

I know right now Sony -- can we say a "Superbit tactic"? -- is putting out some titles that have been either "remastered in 4K" or re-released in native 4K (if I'm not mistaken) i.e. Amazing Spider-Man, but what is the deal with this upcoming revolution to home cinema...will there be physical media released in 4K that will "replace" Blu-ray as BD was supposed to do with DVD? Or is there nothing to worry about right now?

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post #2 of 31 Old 06-14-2014, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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As a side note...is it just my end, or did this forum change its layout, thread structures, post themes etc?

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post #3 of 31 Old 06-14-2014, 08:32 PM
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There is next to no chance of Blu-ray bringing us 4K. So I would not worry about that. 4K content will come and will be in the form of Internet streaming/download. Current generation displays (for the most part) have built-in support for next generation compression format and platform for delivery of streaming content to them. They also have the required new content protection system (HDCP 2.2).

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post #4 of 31 Old 06-14-2014, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
As a side note...is it just my end, or did this forum change its layout, thread structures, post themes etc?
It changed more than the layout. The original version of AVS Forum was hosted on an older version of "Vbulletin." AVS Forum switched a year or two ago to another platform called Huddler. That is an entirely different system although they did try hard to emulate most of the functionality of Vbulletin. AVS Forum has now switched back to Vbulletin. Being an entirely different system, it works differently even though it kind of looks similar. Unfortunately this is a newest version of VBulletin which in my opinion has take a step backward in usability compared to 4.X version that many other forums use.

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post #5 of 31 Old 06-15-2014, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
There is next to no chance of Blu-ray bringing us 4K. So I would not worry about that. 4K content will come and will be in the form of Internet streaming/download. Current generation displays (for the most part) have built-in support for next generation compression format and platform for delivery of streaming content to them. They also have the required new content protection system (HDCP 2.2).
Thanks for the reply, amir.

So, you're saying there's little to no chance of 4K becoming a physical form of media to buy (kind of like a replacement for Blu-ray)? If so, what's the deal with some of Sony's new "Mastered in 4K" titles? This won't be a standard going forward?

As for the displays...I will be in the market for a new one soon, but should I be looking for one that says it's "4K Ready" or some such wording?

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post #6 of 31 Old 06-15-2014, 01:40 PM
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HDMI 1.4 was the FIRST version which could support 4K at 24 and 30 fps frame rate, but NOT at the higher 60 fps rate desired for smoother (e.g. latest Lord of the Rings) video presentation and fast moving SPORTS (recall that current 720p Sports programs use 60 fps).

HDMI 1.3 and earlier interfaces do NOT support 4K format...so check the specs details on your current AVR or other equipments and whatever you consider buying:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.3

A new interface, HDMI 2.0, is required to transfer 4K at 60 fps frame rate. Hopefully, new equipment with HDMI 2.0 interfaces ALSO include the new HDCP 2.2 Encryption Standard (probably we will first see in the new Ultra-Ray Discs???):
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0

Current 4K program material (e.g. streaming Netflix & Utube....apparently ONLY in 4:3 format???) obviously is being heavily over-compressed for our "convenience" until Ultra-Ray Discs are available:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

Yes, 4K on Blu-Ray Discs WILL be available from major studios by the END OF THIS YEAR and will, of course, require a new Ultra-Ray Disc Player:
http://www.whathifi.com/news/4k-blu-...scs-will-exist

A NEW Ultra-Ray (Violet-Ray???) Player SHOULD have HDMI 2.0 (backward compatible with HDMI 1.4), so eventually you MIGHT want a new AVR with HDMI 2.0 Switching....but it's OPTIONAL. You could also connect the Ultra-Ray Player's HDMI 2.0 interface directly to a new UHDTV (HDMI 1.4 or 2.0) and use your older AVR fed with Optical/Coax Digital Audio for surround sound.

If possible, I would hold off buying a UHDTV until the end of this year or early next year (lower prices usually found in January), when the first Ultra-Ray Discs are SUPPOSED to be available. Since Internet should be built into these high-end sets, I am also concerned about whether today's sets will need to be upgraded to support a NEW, MORE EFFICIENT CODEC for Internet Streaming....esp. since CODEC's are usually implemented in HARDWARE and might not be a simple software upgrade.

This author agrees with me and brings up an addition concern....Live Sports actually needs 120 fps, not just 60 Hz as currently used in today's 720p broadcasts. If OTA, SAT and/or Cable providers decide to standardize on 120 Hz for 4K broadcasts (with perhaps a more efficient CODEC), the CURRENT 4K UHDTVs will become less desirable...although they could still be fed a (possibly Trans-Coded) and down-converted 60 fps 4K signal:
http://recombu.com/digital/news/why-...et_M13197.html

BTW: I've seen numerous 4K demos at CES on "small" 42-50 inch screens as well as monster 80-103 inch screens....fed by computers streaming off a hard drive. The "small" screens were perceived to be only slightly better than other 1080p HDTV demos. The monster screens were needed to clearly show the improvement of UHDTV.....

Since current OTA/SAT/Cable broadcasts are severely limited by over-compression (macro-blocking, esp. with rapidly changing images) and lack of care in production, I doubt that upconverting these channels to UHDTV will show very much....if ANY....improvement. And although I haven't seen any yet, I doubt that up-converting pristine 1080p Blu-Ray Disc content to UHDTV will make much of a visible improvement....perhaps you should search out other user's experience on this subject....

This author descrives what to look for in new UHDTV equipment....and points out that MANY current 4K UHDTV's do NOT have all of these "essential" features....so "Caveat Emptor":
http://hdguru.com/three-must-have-4k-tv-features
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post #7 of 31 Old 06-15-2014, 02:29 PM
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+1. If you don't NEED a new tv now, I'd wait like holl_ands suggests. There's just too much flux going on now with UHD/4k, HDMI 2.0, HDCP2.2, etc. Practically all of the mfrs have sets, or will be offering sets with HDMI 2.0 upgradeability etc etc etc. But until the new chipsets are built-in to the tv's, with the rest of the supporting hardware components, it just might be best to wait and see what the 2015 sets have to offer. Upgrade pathways, whether they are done via firmware, board swap, or an external STB are available now, or will soon be, but there's nothing more robust and stable than the chipsets built-in and the rest of the tv built around that.
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post #8 of 31 Old 06-15-2014, 02:29 PM
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The primary use for a 4 k monitor today is as a computer monitor. The resolution has finally exceeded that which was available on CRTs before everyone downgraded to 1080P LCD screens.
I do not believe that any kind of streaming media, even if they call it "4k" can give better image quality than current Blu-ray media. The bandwidth just is not there for it in the US infrastructure.
I will become interested in 4 K media when there is a disk format for it, and the copy protection has been cracked to the point where I can play the media I buy on Linux.
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post #9 of 31 Old 06-15-2014, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow -- great (though a bit technical in places, lol) information guys, thank you very much for providing that and for your feedback...

No, we definitely won't NEED a new TV any time soon (we're running a 50-inch Sony SXRD rear projection set that is perfectly fine and is only on its second lamp) as the only reason we really wanted to upgrade was due to size (we want a 75 or 80-inch set) based on our seating distance; I just wanted to know what the deal was with upcoming 4K protocols because it all seemed so confusing and jumbled up (much like Blu-ray/1080p was prior to launch for that matter -- or even HD DVD)...

That said, and knowing native Ultra HD/4K media is on the way, will the new "Ultra High Def" players that will read these discs be DOUBLE backward-compatible? In other words, will they be able to "upconvert" BOTH DVD and Blu-ray to 4K (while of course playing native 4K material)? The gear I have now is all HDMI 1.3(a) compatible -- an Onkyo TX-SR605 AVR, OPPO BDP-83 and the Sony SXRD...what will be needed to make native 4K work, or do we even know yet?

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post #10 of 31 Old 06-15-2014, 11:20 PM
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There is no REQUIREMENT for DVD Players to up-convert 480p DVD's to 1080i/p...it's OPTIONAL and hence is only found in SOME DVD Players.

Same thing applies to 4K Players....upconverting 480p/720p/1080p to 4K is OPTIONAL and hence should only be found in SOME Ultra-Disc Players....but I would expect to see this capability in the large majority of Players...and might be missing in the cheaper Players....


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post #11 of 31 Old 06-16-2014, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
The gear I have now is all HDMI 1.3(a) compatible -- an Onkyo TX-SR605 AVR, OPPO BDP-83 and the Sony SXRD...what will be needed to make native 4K work, or do we even know yet?
I don't think HDMI 1.3a is capable of 4k/2160 @/60fps 4:2:0, which is the upper limit of 1.4b and the lower limit of 2.0. So, you'll be in the same boat as most of us in that you will eventually have to upgrade your devices to take advantage of the increased bandwidth required for the newer formats that are coming with HDMI 2.0.
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post #12 of 31 Old 06-16-2014, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
There is no REQUIREMENT for DVD Players to up-convert 480p DVD's to 1080i/p...it's OPTIONAL and hence is only found in SOME DVD Players.

Yes...but this pertains mainly to early "upconverting" decks for the most part, no? Up until Blu-ray players started coming out, we saw the release of mainly 1080p-capable upconverting DVD players...

Quote:
Same thing applies to 4K Players....upconverting 480p/720p/1080p to 4K is OPTIONAL and hence should only be found in SOME Ultra-Disc Players....but I would expect to see this capability in the large majority of Players...and might be missing in the cheaper Players....

I see what you're saying; I suppose what I am ultimately asking is if -- that is, if we know at this time -- the new 4K players SHOULD be double backwards compatible...meaning they should be able to play DVD, Blu-ray AND native 4K media...


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post #13 of 31 Old 06-16-2014, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
I don't think HDMI 1.3a is capable of 4k/2160 @/60fps 4:2:0, which is the upper limit of 1.4b and the lower limit of 2.0. So, you'll be in the same boat as most of us in that you will eventually have to upgrade your devices to take advantage of the increased bandwidth required for the newer formats that are coming with HDMI 2.0.

Yes, Otto; I'm aware that the HDMI 1.3 spec would be an outdated method to pass the new formats, codecs, etc. -- I was merely sharing what my current gear boasts...

Here's something I neglected to ask in the original question -- what about the audio formats expected to accompany 4K films on disc? Is DTS or Dolby planning on new surround codecs beyond TrueHD/Master Audio, or should these codecs carry on with "enhanced resolution"?
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post #14 of 31 Old 06-16-2014, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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post #15 of 31 Old 06-17-2014, 01:37 AM
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Current Blu-Ray Discs support the fol. Audio Formats (note that DSD Lossless Audio Format is NOT supported on BD....SACD is a DIFFERENT Disc Format):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Audio

I think the current LOSSLESS High Rez Audio Formats are about as perfect as it's going to get for Disc Format (except perhaps DSD Codec as discussed below)...with loads of flexibility and more channels than I have room to mount speakers. The industry needs to concentrate on making it easier to navigate & play, more readily FOUND including appropriate advertising (OF COURSE IT'S BETTER THAN CLICK, SNAP, HISS & POP VINYL) and (needless to say) more affordable for users to buy Hi-Rez Audio Tracks, whether hard-copy discs or Internet Download:
http://www.whathifi.com/news/high-re...u-need-to-know
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...00+BSW20140111
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/hig...-from-ces-2014

Personally, I think that there is a NEED for a discrete, independent Center-Rear Speaker Channel, as provided by DTS-ES 6.1...but hardly any discs USE this format....and it's NOT normally found as a SEPARATE Ctr-Rear channel....you have to re-configure one of the OTHER channels for the couple hours you watch that disc and then put it back to original configuration....total Buzz-Kill. (And NO, NOT MATRIXED or otherwise DERIVED from LR+RR like some systems fake it). BTW: Dolby Digital Surround EX does this for CINEMA (only) Systems by putting the digital data in-between the film sprocket holes:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professio...rround-ex.html
So unless my dream of a 6.1 or 8.1 system is adopted, it appears that we are still looking at 5.1 and 7.1 sound systems.

Partly as overkill and partly to address the REAL problem of trans-coding back and forth between DSD and PCM (which is the underlying sample format in most Codecs), DSD Recorders are available that record at Double, Quad and Octuple the normal DSD rate of 2.8444 Mbps x 1 bit (64x the CD rate of 44.1 ksps x 16 bits). So Ultra-Disc Format MIGHT include these formats, depending on what the standardization committee decides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_...ouble-rate_DSD

There are several, still competing, still co-existing Internet Audio Streaming formats that provide LOSSLESS High Rez Audio Formats, primarily FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) and ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec) and Sony's ATRAC Advanced Lossless Codec (Adaptive Transform Acoustic Coding). Click on initials for links to more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_codecs

Although my OPPO BDP-93 3D Blu-Ray Player has Internet Connectivity, specs (and S/W update descriptions) indicate that it does NOT support these Hi-Rez Audio Streaming formats...although they have been around for quite some time....

They ARE found in fol. high end, Internet Connected, Sony HAP-S1 HDD Audio Recorder/Player (which does NOT play CD, DVD or BD Discs):
http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-...ls#/manualsTab
If you click on "Reference Guide", you'll find the fol. list of supported Audio Formats:
DSD (DSF, DSDIFF), LPCM (WAV, AIFF), FLAC, ALAC, ATRAC Advanced
Lossless, ATRAC, MP3, AAC, WMA (2 channels)


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post #16 of 31 Old 06-17-2014, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
There is no REQUIREMENT for DVD Players to up-convert 480p DVD's to 1080i/p...it's OPTIONAL and hence is only found in SOME DVD Players.
But a parallel comparison would be to ask if Blu-ray players are required to up-convert DVDs to 720p or 1080i/p. As far as I am aware, there is no such requirement, but I am unaware of any Blu-ray players that don't have the capability to up-convert DVDs.

Both Blu-ray players I have can up-convert and currently they are set to do so, but I just checked and both have the option to pass on the format the disc was recorded in (one of them will deinterlace and pass 480p if the original was 480i, the other looks like it will pass 480i).

For what it's worth, I never heard of an upscaling DVD player until after there were HD DVD and Blu-ray players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Same thing applies to 4K Players....upconverting 480p/720p/1080p to 4K is OPTIONAL and hence should only be found in SOME Ultra-Disc Players....but I would expect to see this capability in the large majority of Players...and might be missing in the cheaper Players....
If a 4K (UHD) player can play Blu-ray discs and DVDs, I would be surprised if it doesn't have the ability to upscale, but we may have to wait until they are being sold to know for sure.

You might be right about the upscaling capabilities be omitted on the cheaper 4K players since the need for TVs to be able to handle various formats from the ATSC tuner and HDMI-connected devices will still be there, since it is unlikely for a TV or a "monitor" to sell if the only signal you can feed it is 4K (UHD) when the vast majority of content is 480, 720 and 1080.

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Blu-ray players (Sony BDP-S3100, old LG BD390), Roku (the original model: N1000), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (25Mbps/5Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Starter Package), DVD/VHS player.
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post #17 of 31 Old 06-17-2014, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Current Blu-Ray Discs support the fol. Audio Formats (note that DSD Lossless Audio Format is NOT supported on BD....SACD is a DIFFERENT Disc Format):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Audio

I think the current LOSSLESS High Rez Audio Formats are about as perfect as it's going to get for Disc Format (except perhaps DSD Codec as discussed below)...with loads of flexibility and more channels than I have room to mount speakers. The industry needs to concentrate on making it easier to navigate & play, more readily FOUND including appropriate advertising (OF COURSE IT'S BETTER THAN CLICK, SNAP, HISS & POP VINYL) and (needless to say) more affordable for users to buy Hi-Rez Audio Tracks, whether hard-copy discs or Internet Download:
http://www.whathifi.com/news/high-re...u-need-to-know
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...00+BSW20140111
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/hig...-from-ces-2014

Personally, I think that there is a NEED for a discrete, independent Center-Rear Speaker Channel, as provided by DTS-ES 6.1...but hardly any discs USE this format....and it's NOT normally found as a SEPARATE Ctr-Rear channel....you have to re-configure one of the OTHER channels for the couple hours you watch that disc and then put it back to original configuration....total Buzz-Kill. (And NO, NOT MATRIXED or otherwise DERIVED from LR+RR like some systems fake it). BTW: Dolby Digital Surround EX does this for CINEMA (only) Systems by putting the digital data in-between the film sprocket holes:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professio...rround-ex.html
So unless my dream of a 6.1 or 8.1 system is adopted, it appears that we are still looking at 5.1 and 7.1 sound systems.

Partly as overkill and partly to address the REAL problem of trans-coding back and forth between DSD and PCM (which is the underlying sample format in most Codecs), DSD Recorders are available that record at Double, Quad and Octuple the normal DSD rate of 2.8444 Mbps x 1 bit (64x the CD rate of 44.1 ksps x 16 bits). So Ultra-Disc Format MIGHT include these formats, depending on what the standardization committee decides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_...ouble-rate_DSD

There are several, still competing, still co-existing Internet Audio Streaming formats that provide LOSSLESS High Rez Audio Formats, primarily FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) and ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec) and Sony's ATRAC Advanced Lossless Codec (Adaptive Transform Acoustic Coding). Click on initials for links to more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_codecs

Although my OPPO BDP-93 3D Blu-Ray Player has Internet Connectivity, specs (and S/W update descriptions) indicate that it does NOT support these Hi-Rez Audio Streaming formats...although they have been around for quite some time....

They ARE found in fol. high end, Internet Connected, Sony HAP-S1 HDD Audio Recorder/Player (which does NOT play CD, DVD or BD Discs):
http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-...ls#/manualsTab
If you click on "Reference Guide", you'll find the fol. list of supported Audio Formats:
DSD (DSF, DSDIFF), LPCM (WAV, AIFF), FLAC, ALAC, ATRAC Advanced
Lossless, ATRAC, MP3, AAC, WMA (2 channels)
So...are you saying that seemingly we should see TrueHD/Master Audio continue with 4K?

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post #18 of 31 Old 06-17-2014, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
But a parallel comparison would be to ask if Blu-ray players are required to up-convert DVDs to 720p or 1080i/p. As far as I am aware, there is no such requirement, but I am unaware of any Blu-ray players that don't have the capability to up-convert DVDs.

If I am not mistaken, they ALL have to upconvert DVD...

Quote:
For what it's worth, I never heard of an upscaling DVD player until after there were HD DVD and Blu-ray players.

Oh, yes, Mark -- upconverting DVD players were indeed all over the market before HD DVD and Blu-ray arrived...no doubt...and some very good, albeit expensive ones a la Denon...

Quote:
If a 4K (UHD) player can play Blu-ray discs and DVDs, I would be surprised if it doesn't have the ability to upscale, but we may have to wait until they are being sold to know for sure.

I, too, would they would need to be double backward compatible as to keep any market share because consumers wouldn't want to be told they have to "give up" their Blu-ray players (though they can just keep them in the rack to play Blu-ray)...

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post #19 of 31 Old 06-17-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
So...are you saying that seemingly we should see TrueHD/Master Audio continue with 4K?


If that's the case then all the more reason to avoid 4k ( since audio would be no better than current )....unless you have a projector or an 80" flat panel. Pointless to most of us,...but then again I'm not much of a videophile.....just audio


Enjoy the pixels!

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post #20 of 31 Old 06-17-2014, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
If that's the case then all the more reason to avoid 4k ( since audio would be no better than current )....unless you have a projector or an 80" flat panel. Pointless to most of us,...but then again I'm not much of a videophile.....just audio


Enjoy the pixels!

Well, my next display was going to be in the 75 to 80" range, so perhaps 4K would make sense visually -- I saw a demo at a local Sears on Samsung's curved 4K display (I think it was a 55") and it was JAW DROPPING...everything Blu-ray should have (or could have) been IMO...


Of course, the actual FILMS that come out on the DISCS probably won't look nearly as impressive...


What part of New York you in?

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post #21 of 31 Old 06-17-2014, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
So...are you saying that seemingly we should see TrueHD/Master Audio continue with 4K?
Just as Blu-Ray Players continue to provide the ability to play older formats (e.g. CD, DVD, etc), the new Ultra (Violet-Ray???) Players should retain the ability to also play the older assortment of Disc and File formats...including the Blu-Ray list of Audio File Formats I cited above (incl. Lossless TrueHD/Master Audio, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, and DTS-HD Master Audio).

BUT, I still expect to see SOME Ultra Players that leave out one or more formats for whatever licensing/popularity/whatever rationale a particular manufacturer adopts. So unless most of the "chips" standardize on providing HDCD decoding, I expect only a very few (e.g. OPPO) will implement HDCD "backward compatible TRUE 20-bit samples vice CD 16-bit" embedded in the CD format (3.6+ Million Titles worldwide), since there are/were only 5000+ HDCD Titles in the marketplace. BTW there are also numerous UNLABELED HDCD Titles out there posing as regular CD's until you play them on a HDCD capable player (incl. latest MS Media Player...see wiki for note re a glitch):
http://www.goodwinshighend.com/hdcd.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_De...atible_Digital

SACD's (over 7000+ Titles) will probably continue to be playable on SONY Ultra Players....and not so much for other manufacturers...so you might need to insert SACD's into your Sony Playstation to play them.

DVD-Audio Discs (with MLP, Meridian Lossless Packing Codec and Hi-Rez PCM Stereo) continue to be playable on a FEW High-End Blu-Ray Players (e.g. OPPO, Cambridge, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, et.al., incl. SACD's) but may or may not be in future Ultra Players, depending on whether manufacturer's decide to maintain the capability to play the (maybe 1000???) Titles in the marketplace, with very few new releases (or re-releases of old Titles) expected:
http://members2.jcom.home.ne.jp/0440...l/dadsacd.html
http://www.dvd-a.net/

Personally I have mixed feelings re DVD-Audio vs SACD.....the first sounds slightly "better" to my ears and supports short VIDEO demo or comment tracks, whilst SACD Hybrid Discs (with a second CD layer) are playable in any Car CD Player.

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to find SACD, DVD-Audio and/or Blu-Ray Players for Automobile applications (hmm...maybe I could shock mount one of my old Universal Players under the Passenger's seat....like I did about 1967 for my first FM Tuner in a car).

PS: My Oppo BDP-93 3D Blu-Ray/Universal Player does ALL of the above formats.....and even better, it outputs them (incl. ALL of the new Hi-Rez Formats) via the 5.1/7.1 RCA Analog Outputs....which can either go DIRECTLY into the AVR's Power Amplifiers....or via the AVR's built-in Room Frequency Response Equalizer....and Sub-Woofer output goes through a separate 1/3 Octave Band Equalizer feeding a separate 70's era Amp & a pair of Altec 15-in VOTT Speakers/Equipment Stands.


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post #22 of 31 Old 06-18-2014, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks; I suppose we'll have to wait and see what happens with the evolution of this new format...


So, in quasi-summary, what we'll be looking at when NATIVE 4K optical media arrives is:


1. New 4K capable display
2. New 4K player
3. New HDMI 2.0-compatible receiver


...correct?

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post #23 of 31 Old 06-18-2014, 04:25 PM
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And all 3 implement at least one 4K HDMI standard video format consistent across all three. (The problem with too many optional HDMI 2 features is that vendors may implement different options and, while all may be HDMI 2 compatible, the mix across vendors in one's home might not produce the desired results.)

This is one of the reasons why I am usually shy of being on the very leading edge of a new technology.

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Blu-ray players (Sony BDP-S3100, old LG BD390), Roku (the original model: N1000), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (25Mbps/5Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Starter Package), DVD/VHS player.
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post #24 of 31 Old 06-18-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
+1. If you don't NEED a new tv now, I'd wait like holl_ands suggests. There's just too much flux going on now with UHD/4k, HDMI 2.0, HDCP2.2, etc. Practically all of the mfrs have sets, or will be offering sets with HDMI 2.0 upgradeability etc etc etc. But until the new chipsets are built-in to the tv's, with the rest of the supporting hardware components, it just might be best to wait and see what the 2015 sets have to offer. Upgrade pathways, whether they are done via firmware, board swap, or an external STB are available now, or will soon be, but there's nothing more robust and stable than the chipsets built-in and the rest of the tv built around that.
The "2020" video standard will not only standardize 4K, but will also support HDR (High Dynamic Range) and Wide Color (12-bit color gamut instead of 8-bit). So really, anything purchased in the next few years will be outdated when that standard gets fully implemented by manufacturers (which may take until 2021 or 2022, or could happen by 2018).

HDR and Wide Color along with corresponding contrast improvements will have as much or more benefit to picture quality as 4K.

So personally, I'm probably sticking with 1080p for another 4 or 5 years at least, so I can get a panel or projector that supports the 2020 standard.

Also, US internet infrastructure should have the bandwidth to stream 4K with an affordable connection by then. To do "real" 4K you need about 70 megabits. It can be done in less, but the quality isn't any better than real 1080p.

$.02.
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post #25 of 31 Old 06-18-2014, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
And all 3 implement at least one 4K HDMI standard video format consistent across all three. (The problem with too many optional HDMI 2 features is that vendors may implement different options and, while all may be HDMI 2 compatible, the mix across vendors in one's home might not produce the desired results.)

This is one of the reasons why I am usually shy of being on the very leading edge of a new technology.

Mark,


I totally agree about the "being on the bleeding edge of new technology" thing -- I knew it was going to be a nightmare when HD DVD flooded the market (the hardware that is) and lo and behold, the original Toshiba decks were absolute pieces of crap out of the gate...I always wait until at least some bugs are worked out of a technology...

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post #26 of 31 Old 06-18-2014, 07:45 PM
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Be interesting to see what the 2160 (60p I believe) BBC tests look like on DVB-T2. I imagine they will be running HEVC in a 40.25Mbs standard UK T2 mux (be interesting if they aren't). Also be interesting to see if they use 10bit as Sky have for their recent tests.

Does anyone know what the French Open 4K DVB-T2 stuff looked like?
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post #27 of 31 Old 06-22-2014, 06:17 PM
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Well - as posted in another thread, the BBC 4k tests are up in London.

3840x2160/59.94p at around 35-37Mbs HEVC/H265 in a DVB-T2 mux. Currently showing a very short repeating loop of BBC buildings and moving trees with an audio spectrum sweep test signal.

DVB Viewer, TransEdit and TSReader all cope with it. The video is correctly flagged as HEVC, the audio as AAC (AC3 not used for terrestrial in the UK) Recent FFPlay and LAVFilters will let you watch it - though it's very CPU intensive... Recording it and transcoding to H264/AVC for later real-time playback is entirely possible though.

The BBC will be showing 3 World Cup matches on this test channel I believe.
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post #28 of 31 Old 06-22-2014, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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The thing is....how will feature Hollywood films look in 4K?

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post #29 of 31 Old 06-23-2014, 04:11 PM
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Here's your answer....but beware....after reading this you might be tempted to WAIT for 16K Super-Duper-Ultra-DTVs...with direct Brain interface:
http://www.slashfilm.com/film-interv...misconceptions

Per Hugh Murray, the SVP of Film Production at IMAX:

"There are IMAX film cameras that use 65mm negative running horizontally. Every frame is almost three inches wide. The detail you get is unparalleled. Kodak says that 35mm film has 6K resolution horizontally if you’ve got it off a 35mm negative, but our negative is three times larger than that, so you’re looking at potentially 18,000 pixels across as your starting point before you do anything else with it. It’s captured in the camera. So it’s an amazing capture medium and a lot of the forest shots and the wide shots in the arena sequence, it’s the perfect camera for all of those details."

PS: In "Camera-Speak", BEST 35-mm Film is 6K x 0.75*6K = 27 Mpxl
and IMAX is about 18K x 0.7*18K = 227 Mpxl (assuming square pixels).
[BEST 35-mm Film requires lots of light...other shots may be much lower resolution using higher speed Film.]

Compare to:
HDTV (720p) = 1280 x 720 = 0.9 Mpxl
HDTV (1080p) = 1920 x 1080 = 2.1 Mpxl
UDTV (4K) = 3840 x 2160 = 8.1 Mpxl
UDTV (8K) = 7680 x 4320 = 33.2 Mpxl


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post #30 of 31 Old 06-23-2014, 09:49 PM
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A fairly recent article with lots of technical details re 4K UHD Disc requirements (spec final expected end of 2014....unclear if TRULY FINAL....or simply out for final COMMENTS).....and (per Sony source) is expected to be targeted for 2015 Xmas buying season:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/tech...ate-april-2014

And competitor Samsung's view of 4K UHD Disc requirements/solutions:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multime...tribution.html

BTW: I'm surprised that they haven't picked some OTHER name, cuz ULTRA DISC (and Ultra Gold Disc) is already used to describe some Mobile Fidelity CD & SACD Disc's (I have a bunch of each type):
http://www.mofi.com/category_s/1822.htm
http://www.mofi.com/category_s/1821.htm
As well as an apparently unrelated CD/DVD Disc pressing house:
http://www.ultradisc.com
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