End of OTA TV in the Netherlands? - AVS Forum
HDTV Technical > End of OTA TV in the Netherlands?
kenglish's Avatar kenglish 06:20 AM 07-09-2014
http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2014/...h-dtt-in-2015/

They are saying that, since most everyone has Cable TV at home, and can also get satellite both at home and on the road ("Caravan-ing", as they call it), there is no longer a need for over-the-air TV broadcasting. It could go away by early 2017.
Remember that the Dutch were some of the first to adopt digital terrestrial broadcasting.

Could it happen here?

bac522's Avatar bac522 06:36 AM 07-09-2014
First I assume when you say "here" you mean the USA, avsforum is worldwide.

I'm actually seeing what I perceive as an uptick in OTA in the US because I think both Cable and Satellite are getting to the point of just ludicrous pricing especially Comcast's pricing! Every time I shows friends/neighbors the quality of my picture I'm getting with OTA, a good 50% of them turn around and dump Cable/Sat...only problem for me though is that they ask me to help them with getting an OTA in place...well at least I won't be buying beer for a while...LOL!

Also, the FCC (generally) makes decisions based on input from the public and I think there's enough OTA users in the US to make a stink enough not to change that. I doubt in the US OTA will be going away anytime soon.

I don't know much about how Dutch television works in terms of pricing or if the article is only referencing public tv so not much to go on from the article.
turnne1's Avatar turnne1 06:39 AM 07-09-2014
and all the while the OTA broadcasting is going downhill quickly...and the cable/satellite channels seem to have about the only shows worth watching anymore

I rarely even watch local stations anymore. I used to watch it for the news...now I get that mostly from the internet


Warren
jjeff's Avatar jjeff 06:53 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
and all the while the OTA broadcasting is going downhill quickly...and the cable/satellite channels seem to have about the only shows worth watching anymore

I rarely even watch local stations anymore. I used to watch it for the news...now I get that mostly from the internet


Warren
This is opposite of what I hear. I'm OTA only and have enough to record to keep my Tivo 3/4 full most of the time. Many of the people I know that have cable or even sattelite seem to always be watching network programming and I think to myself, and you pay for that
Guess it depends on what you watch, if your a hardcore sports watcher I guess you are destined to pay a monthly fee, that or you can't wait for cable programming to be available on DVD/BD or streaming.
I really really doubt we'll be going the way of the Netherlands, for one how would carriage fees work for local stations, if no local stations existed.....no way local stations are going to give up that money.
turnne1's Avatar turnne1 07:09 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
This is opposite of what I hear. I'm OTA only and have enough to record to keep my Tivo 3/4 full most of the time. Many of the people I know that have cable or even sattelite seem to always be watching network programming and I think to myself, and you pay for that
Guess it depends on what you watch, if your a hardcore sports watcher I guess you are destined to pay a monthly fee, that or you can't wait for cable programming to be available on DVD/BD or streaming.
I really really doubt we'll be going the way of the Netherlands, for one how would carriage fees work for local stations, if no local stations existed.....no way local stations are going to give up that money.
interesting
I can't imagine giving up ESPN for live sports..ie..much better Olympic coverage recently...many of the shows on HBO/Showtime//etc///Games of Thrones..True blood and many more
the list goes on an on.......talk about a full DVR...lol
The creativity and obvious financial investment in their shows...Game of Thrones being a perfect example...is so far ahead of net work TV
You are correct in that you can rent some of the shows on blu ray( or stream it) after the season has passed

I don't know anyone that is strictly OTA....as I think there are more pay subscribers than there are strictly over the air in the United States

Warren
jjeff's Avatar jjeff 07:27 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
....I don't know anyone that is strictly OTA....as I think there are more pay subscribers than there are strictly over the air in the United States

Warren
That is correct, I believe <20% are OTA only although that number probably doubles when you add in people who use both, OTA to a few TVs and pay TV to the rest. I also believe my area(MSP) is among the highest percentage of OTA only households but still far short of 50%.
Someone else is sure to know the actual percentages but I believe I'm in the ball park.
Drlink's Avatar Drlink 07:33 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
interesting
I can't imagine giving up ESPN for live sports..ie..much better Olympic coverage recently...many of the shows on HBO/Showtime//etc///Games of Thrones..True blood and many more
the list goes on an on.......talk about a full DVR...lol
The creativity and obvious financial investment in their shows...Game of Thrones being a perfect example...is so far ahead of net work TV
You are correct in that you can rent some of the shows on blu ray( or stream it) after the season has passed

I don't know anyone that is strictly OTA....as I think there are more pay subscribers than there are strictly over the air in the United States

Warren
Live sports is the one large gap in the armor of the cord-cutter. My household is OTA, Netflix Streaming/Bluray Disc Plan and Amazon Prime. We can eventually watch anything we could possibly desire (and a lot of it in superior Bluray video/audio), except the sports.
TVOD's Avatar TVOD 07:37 AM 07-09-2014
If the US government had their way, OTA TV would be gone tomorrow with the spectrum ready for auction. Nearly half the original UHF TV band is gone already. Some station owners may wonder if the costs of an OTA transmitter is worthwhile, particularly as it doesn't generate retrans fees. No OTA also means the elimination of possible FCC fines, though the agency was finally restrained from making up the obscenity rules on the fly. Conversely, without OTA what defines a TV station or its service area?
Drlink's Avatar Drlink 07:47 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
If the US government had their way, OTA TV would be gone tomorrow with the spectrum ready for auction. Nearly half the original UHF TV band is gone already. Some station owners may wonder if the costs of an OTA transmitter is worthwhile, particularly as it doesn't generate retrans fees. No OTA also means the elimination of possible FCC fines, though the agency was finally restrained from making up the obscenity rules on the fly. Conversely, without OTA what defines a TV station or its service area?
As much as I bemoaned the SCOTUS Aereo decision, I did worry that Aereo's continued existance might have hastened the demise of traditional OTA in the US.

Multiple networks threatened as much before and during litigation.
laridae's Avatar laridae 07:51 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenglish View Post
http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2014/...h-dtt-in-2015/

They are saying that, since most everyone has Cable TV at home, and can also get satellite both at home and on the road ("Caravan-ing", as they call it), there is no longer a need for over-the-air TV broadcasting. It could go away by early 2017.
Remember that the Dutch were some of the first to adopt digital terrestrial broadcasting.

Could it happen here?
That doesn't sound right. The country is small and flat and ideally suited to free OTA broadcasts.
Guess they have too much money, or else the carriers have somehow convinced the gov regulators to not undermine their cash cow with free competition.
turnne1's Avatar turnne1 08:09 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drlink View Post
Live sports is the one large gap in the armor of the cord-cutter. My household is OTA, Netflix Streaming/Bluray Disc Plan and Amazon Prime. We can eventually watch anything we could possibly desire (and a lot of it in superior Bluray video/audio), except the sports.
eventually..being the key word there
There are actually a few more shows that may be of interest..other than ESPN broadcasting that you many are interested in
There are food , home and reality channels that you cant get over the air..or rented/streamed
My Direct TV ..for the most part ..is broadcast in 1080P and dolby digital surround
are the blu ray dics of the shows in lossless audio formats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
Conversely, without OTA what defines a TV station or its service area?
a station that is domiciled in your local area that primarily talks about local events/news

I dont think it matters if you receive it OTA or not

Warren
bac522's Avatar bac522 09:00 AM 07-09-2014
Yeah, live sports is probably the biggest kink in OTAs armor...since going completely OTA, I miss not seeing Bruins hockey live...although I can get the games online the next day. Fortunately football is covered pretty good by the major networks. Outside of that, between OTA and streaming devices like Roku, I'm at no lose for viewing material while pocketing $1200 a year!
Drlink's Avatar Drlink 10:11 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
eventually..being the key word there
There are actually a few more shows that may be of interest..other than ESPN broadcasting that you many are interested in
There are food , home and reality channels that you cant get over the air..or rented/streamed
My Direct TV ..for the most part ..is broadcast in 1080P and dolby digital surround
are the blu ray dics of the shows in lossless audio formats?
True...some of the "food, home and reality channels" aren't available via OTA or streaming...but I don't think they represent a issue for the significant majority of consumers.

There is a one year delay in our consumption of premium cable and most non-premium cable content, but that actually works to our advantage as we are selective about the shows we watch based on the feedback of friends and critical reviews. Patience is a virtue!

The formats vary, but the audio and video on Bluray looks and sounds superior than what I see on friend's/family members Comcast/Dish HD broadcasts.
TVOD's Avatar TVOD 10:31 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
a station that is domiciled in your local area that primarily talks about local events/news

I dont think it matters if you receive it OTA or not
What defines the boundaries of my local area? How distant the areas are that the local news talks about?
turnne1's Avatar turnne1 10:35 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drlink View Post
True...some of the "food, home and reality channels" aren't available via OTA or streaming...but I don't think they represent a issue for the significant majority of consumers.

There is a one year delay in our consumption of premium cable and most non-premium cable content, but that actually works to our advantage as we are selective about the shows we watch based on the feedback of friends and critical reviews. Patience is a virtue!

The formats vary, but the audio and video on Bluray looks and sounds superior than what I see on friend's/family members Comcast/Dish HD broadcasts.
I would bet since there are umpteen food, home and reality channels....that there is a significant number of people that desire( and will pay) to watch them

Perhaps you are lucky that you dont have the desire to watch what millions of other people do...

Because there are a lot more Hondas than BMWs on the road ...does that mean that BMW's are not as desirable?....

I dont really have personal experience with watching blu ray of year old( or older ) series vs watching it currently on Direct TV. I generally watch the show when its current. Rarely, if ever, do I watch reruns of shows I have seen in prior seasons
IMO..Direct Tv is superior in video quality to those sources you mentioned...and it is also more expensive typically

As for streaming....it can be up or down ,depending on your internet connection, in quality
I am sure that you have to admit that "critical reviews" have a high amount of subjectivity...so the best "litmus test" is ones own viewing
That being said...there is something to be said for not knowing what is coming..vs watching it a year( or more) later and knowing the story line details because you could have already read that as well....along with those "critical reviews"
One could say that is a spoiler.


Warren
Drlink's Avatar Drlink 11:56 AM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
I would bet since there are umpteen food, home and reality channels....that there is a significant number of people that desire( and will pay) to watch them

Perhaps you are lucky that you dont have the desire to watch what millions of other people do...

Because there are a lot more Hondas than BMWs on the road ...does that mean that BMW's are not as desirable?....

I dont really have personal experience with watching blu ray of year old( or older ) series vs watching it currently on Direct TV. I generally watch the show when its current. Rarely, if ever, do I watch reruns of shows I have seen in prior seasons
IMO..Direct Tv is superior in video quality to those sources you mentioned...and it is also more expensive typically

As for streaming....it can be up or down ,depending on your internet connection, in quality
I am sure that you have to admit that "critical reviews" have a high amount of subjectivity...so the best "litmus test" is ones own viewing
That being said...there is something to be said for not knowing what is coming..vs watching it a year( or more) later and knowing the story line details because you could have already read that as well....along with those "critical reviews"
One could say that is a spoiler.


Warren
I wouldn't be so sure about the number of people wanting to watch that programming relative to the cost of the service. See the link I've provided below:

http://arstechnica.com/business/2014...only-watch-17/

I think we have some philosophic differences regarding media consumption that defies agreement! I hate it when that happens.
Ratman's Avatar Ratman 12:56 PM 07-09-2014
Holland is approx. twice the size of New Jersey. For them to eliminate OTA is not a big issue.
Will OTA disappear in the U.S.... lower 48? Eventually. But it's a long way off IMO.

This has no more impact for OTA in the U.S. than saying that North Korea will only broadcast basketball games.
TVOD's Avatar TVOD 01:05 PM 07-09-2014
Will OTA still be around for ATSC 3.0 to get off the ground? I still have no idea how that conversion may happen.
Dagwood70's Avatar Dagwood70 01:08 PM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by laridae View Post
That doesn't sound right. The country is small and flat and ideally suited to free OTA broadcasts.
Guess they have too much money, or else the carriers have somehow convinced the gov regulators to not undermine their cash cow with free competition.
If I remember correctly from when I lived in Germany the main German & Netherlands' national channels were free to air over the satellite dish. You only had to buy and set up a basic box and dish. If you wanted premium channels (movies, etc.) you paid a monthly fee and got a card to put your satellite receiver box.
turnne1's Avatar turnne1 05:01 PM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drlink View Post
I wouldn't be so sure about the number of people wanting to watch that programming relative to the cost of the service. See the link I've provided below:

http://arstechnica.com/business/2014...only-watch-17/

I think we have some philosophic differences regarding media consumption that defies agreement! I hate it when that happens.
LOL..not sure of the point of that article

Reason being of those 19 of 189 channels that a specific household will watch..I bet it differs from household to household depending on their specific taste

Having the ability choose from a wide selection is far better than having to watch what is there because of a poor selection

I am not sure how " philosophical" your point of view is for a few reasons

1. This is AVS forum that is full of A/V enthusiasts who invest all types of financial ( and other) resources in what they think they need for a hobby/desire...........far and above the average
2. If I were a betting man I would say the majority of AVS forum members/posters are male
3. do you think a male who has spent both money and time far above the average amount is not going to have a paid service that includes ESPN?
4. do you think they are going to invest time and money( hundreds to thousands of dollars) and want to watch a show a year after it comes out
5. Do you think they will invest time and money( hundreds to thousands of dollars) and watch sitcoms during primetime on OTA channels?

no...that is not philosophical that is reality

Warren
ProjectSHO89's Avatar ProjectSHO89 06:31 AM 07-11-2014
Since the subject of TV in the Netherlands is on the table, I just came across this webpage showing a fire and tower collapse in the Netherlands in 2011.

The site is in Dutch, but Chrome or Google's Translate can translate from the Dutch into English (or whatever).

http://fmtvdx.eu/zendmast/smilde/hoogersmilde.html

Sample photo from the multi-page article:


Aero 1's Avatar Aero 1 07:50 AM 07-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bac522 View Post
Yeah, live sports is probably the biggest kink in OTAs armor...since going completely OTA, I miss not seeing Bruins hockey live...although I can get the games online the next day. Fortunately football is covered pretty good by the major networks. Outside of that, between OTA and streaming devices like Roku, I'm at no lose for viewing material while pocketing $1200 a year!
There are ways around that though. I admit that its not something a non technically inclined person can figure out, but its very easy and very cheap to bypass blackouts with the online sports packages. I watch my local MLB, NHL and MLS teams live with their local broadcasts with my MLB.tv, NHL Gamecenter Live and MLS live subscriptions.
sneals2000's Avatar sneals2000 06:46 PM 07-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagwood70 View Post
If I remember correctly from when I lived in Germany the main German & Netherlands' national channels were free to air over the satellite dish. You only had to buy and set up a basic box and dish. If you wanted premium channels (movies, etc.) you paid a monthly fee and got a card to put your satellite receiver box.
That is still true in Germany - where the main terrestrial channels are also available FTA unencrypted on satellite - and in many cases also in HD (OTA in Germany is, AIUI, still MPEG2 SD only) However in the Netherlands, the main terrestrial channels are encrypted on satellite and not FTA. They may be FTV (free-to-view) or Pay-TV - not sure - but they require a viewing card and suitable conditional access module to view.

OTA in the Netherlands, unlike Germany and the UK, is dominated by pay-TV services, with only the main terrestrial PSBs (Now called NED1, NED2, NED3) and a few minority channels, available unencrypted and FTA. The rest require a viewing card and CAM (Conditional Access Module - either standalone or integrated) - either in your TV or a set-top box (There is a European standard for CAMs which means that all TVs have a CI (Common interface) slot - a bit like a Cablecard slot - which allows a CAM and viewing card to be installed (so you can watch pay-TV services on OTA - and in some cases cable - without needing a STB).

This isn't uncommon in Europe - Sweden has a significant amount of pay-TV on their OTA platforms too (though more services are FTA there than in the Netherlands to be fair)

Once OTA is dominated by pay-TV, the discussion about whether it is a "public service" and different to cable and satellite are more nuanced I guess - particularly if OTA is not a major force (as it is in other European countries like the UK) There is increasing discussion about the 700MHz block (the 800MHz block has gone already) currently used for TV being redesignated for mobile broadband, reducing significantly the spectrum for OTA broadcasts.

Switching existing SD MPEG2 services using DVB-T to SD AV/H264 using DVB-T2 is one proposal to cope with reduced spectrum... A partial solution would keep the main PSBs on MPEG2 SD DVB-T but switch everything else to AVC/H264 DVB-T2. DVB-T2 allows 40+Mbs instead of the 24-27Mbs DVB-T offers in an 8MHz channel, and using AVC rather than MPEG2 allows for a lower bitrate to be used for each service at a given quality, so you can significantly increase the number of channels that could be broadcast in a given spectrum allocation.
TVOD's Avatar TVOD 07:10 PM 07-11-2014
There were some early efforts at pay OTA in the US, but from what I remember they were not 24/7 and were only local operations. With the diverse ownership of local stations compared to other countries (though less compared to US ownership in the past), the pay model would be more difficult to implement. As shown in other countries, the move is away from OTA, especially as VOD gains popularity.
sneals2000's Avatar sneals2000 03:04 AM 07-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
There were some early efforts at pay OTA in the US, but from what I remember they were not 24/7 and were only local operations. With the diverse ownership of local stations compared to other countries (though less compared to US ownership in the past), the pay model would be more difficult to implement. As shown in other countries, the move is away from OTA, especially as VOD gains popularity.
Yep - it's interesting how OTA varies across the world. In some countries - the UK and Japan for instance - it is still a very significant platform. Whereas in others, like the US and Netherlands it is far less significant.

In the UK 75% of homes watch digital OTA, 37% receive satellite pay-TV, 13% receive cable pay-TV and 3.4% receive an IPTV pay-TV service. (Obviously many households receive both pay-TV and OTA - either to cope with PVR viewing clash or for second or third sets in kitchens or bedrooms etc.) Only 54% of households subscribe to pay-TV, but 98% of households watch a digital TV platform. That means 44% of UK households are OTA (or FTA satellite) only. The percentage figures for Freesat (which is a subscription free satellite platform carrying many of the same services as digital OTA, and quite a few more) isn't clear - but 2.1 million households have Freesat or "Freesat from Sky" (which is encrypted and needs a Sky satellite receiver, but no subscription)

The UK's digital OTA platform was initially heavily pay-TV - but the platform launched at the same time as Sky's digital satellite platform which offered more channels, and was trying to squeeze too many channels into too little bandwidth, so suffered from both over compression and running a modulation scheme which wasn't robust enough (so suffered heavily from picture break-up in fringe reception areas, and often required new rooftop aerials/antennae) It closed. The system was then very successfully reinvented with lighter compression, more robust modulation and a predominantly free-to-air channel line-up. I think it is relatively unusual in Europe to have almost no pay-TV OTA - but the UK is an unusual TV market I guess.

Personally I think IPTV is also a significant future distribution system IF high-speed broadband becomes more available (and in some countries, like the US, high-speed broadband is often tied to TV delivery via cable anyway) MPEG-DASH is a really significant development in this arena. Having a standardised IPTV standard that can cope with multiple bitrate streams, and allows multiple broadcasters to use the same receiver hardware without custom apps, has got to be a good thing.
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