I have coax, but is it good enough? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I have coax, but is it good enough?

I need to wire a home with RG6. I have 1000' of Belden 82248 that is only sweep tested to 450MHz. I plan to use for Comcast's Xfinity X1 Platform CATV/internet and possibly a switch to Satellite. I realize that Belden 1694a is one of the best choices in cable but I would like to avoid buying more cable if I could. Also, when searching the forums the majority of related posts seemed to be quite old so i figured I would see what advice current advice I could get seeing how a lot may have changed now that it is 2014.

1: So I am wondering if it was possible that Belden may have chose avoid sweep testing this particular cable for the higher frequencies just to avoid infringing their premium line? The cable construction is quite similar with the exception of the 65% TC braid on the 82248 vs. 95% on the 1694a and also the insulation and jacket material. Both have solid copper 18awg center conductors.

2: Is it worth the risk to install the cable I already own, or should I bite the bullet and purchase cable that has been specifically sweep tested to higher frequencies?

3: If you suggest buying more, Are there any suggestions for cost savings such as finding a cable with similar build characteristics to the 1694a? Such as the Wired Home 3106AD0U from Parts express, etc?
http://www.parts-express.com/wired-h...1000f--101-107

Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.
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post #2 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 04:48 PM
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If you ever plan on using satellite, it will have to be replaced. Satellite service requires excellent performance to 2.2 GHz.

You'd have to ask Belden directly about the other stuff.
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post #3 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I called Belden. They said the 82248 wasn't sweep tested above 450MHz. Seemed like a generic answer to me since the build is close to comparable to higher sweep tested cables. Maybe I'll try to sell the box and buy something else.
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post #4 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 05:51 PM
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If there is a possiblity that satellite might in the plans for the future - I'd STRONGLY suggest using RG6 that has been swept to 3 GHz (rather than just 2.2 GHz). This way, you will be ready for ANYTHING.

I'd also suggest that you wire all the coax into a Homerun configuration - all cables terminating at a "wiring closet". You'll find this works well for cable, satellite and OTA.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #5 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah thanks. Everything will get homeran. All CAT6 to a 48 -port patch panel. Security and fire alarm wiring as well. The only question is the capability of the coax. If no one is convinced it's worth it to use what I have I'll just order better rated cable. It would have been nice to save a few hundred bucks though.
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post #6 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 08:03 PM
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Belden 82248 is very similar construction as Belden 1694A, except 1694A has significantly lower outer shield resistance:
http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/82248.pdf
http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/1694A.pdf

However, 82248 Loss near 700 MHz (top of UHF TV Band) is 6.6 dB/100-ft vs just over 5 dB/100-ft for 1694A...so not that much different....

Last edited by holl_ands; 08-14-2014 at 08:07 PM.
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post #7 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 09:03 PM
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The coax you now have would probably work. Some rooms in my home are wired with 20 + year old Belden RG6 and works perfectly fine with my Dish Satellite Hopper.

But if you are going thru all that labor to run new cables, I would upgrade to something that is sweep tested to 3 gig. It may save you hassles with your installer of cable or satellite.

I strongly recommend Belden 7915A. About 100$ for 500 feet.

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post #8 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I have to admit I typically believed that coax was coax coming from a CCTV background. I was used to using rg59 and rg6 with bare copper braids for all my coax needs. Now that I wont be able to remove most of it once it's installed I'd like to be a lot more careful with my wiring decisions. I will be installing a couple 1-inch conduits between the family room TV and the AV cabinet for future wiring. I'd like to make the right decision with the coax so I don't have to start using up my conduit prematurely.
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post #9 of 28 Old 08-14-2014, 10:46 PM
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Like I said, Belden 7915A is good coax. I don't know how many feet you need and your budget. It may be a good idea to run 3gig coax to the locations that you can't get to later and use the stuff you now have thru the conduit. It more than likely will work, but won't be up to spec.

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post #10 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 07:36 AM
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I believe this is the stuff I use (I'd have haul out the carton to be sure):

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...QUAD&ss=257187

Solid core, 3Ghz sweep

Last edited by NetworkTV; 08-15-2014 at 07:41 AM.
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post #11 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 08:16 AM
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Looks like good cable, Network. Personally, I don't like quad. Be sure to purchase good quad compression F connectors.

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post #12 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopps View Post
Thanks. I have to admit I typically believed that coax was coax coming from a CCTV background. I was used to using rg59 and rg6 with bare copper braids for all my coax needs. Now that I wont be able to remove most of it once it's installed I'd like to be a lot more careful with my wiring decisions. I will be installing a couple 1-inch conduits between the family room TV and the AV cabinet for future wiring. I'd like to make the right decision with the coax so I don't have to start using up my conduit prematurely.
I've installed antenna wiring for about 40 years, going back to when we often installed unshielded twinlead. I've also installed satellite wiring in big buildings, carrying those high frequency signals as far as 1/4 mile.

From a signal transmission standpoint, coax is coax. Some coax has a little more loss over a given length than does other cable, but unless you are in an incredibly demanding situation, like trying to simultaneously distribute off-air signals that vary in signal strength by 30dB or more AND wind up with a distribution budget insufficiency that leaves you exactly short a dB or two, then cable won't make a difference from a signal strength standpoint.

Better quality cable can make a difference in four ways.

1. Foil shield will resist signal ingress much better than really old, braid-only shield wire, but the only braid-only shielded wire I have encountered in the last decade was RG59 intended for security camera use... and a few TV jumpers with molded F connector ends that were supplied with consumer electronic products.

2. Quad shield MAY make a slight difference in egress, or broadcasting, of your signal, but you will have no reason to care about that. Cable companies care because they are held accountable for cumulative system leakage but even then, I think their preference for quad shielded cable is not so much because it tends to leak less in normal use, but rather because even if it is whacked and the first foil shield layer gets breached, the second layer remains intact.

3. Systems that count on coax for powering gobble up more current and drop more voltage if they used higher resistance, copper plated steel center conductors and less dense shielding. That used to make a big difference when trying to have a satellite receiver toggle a polarity switch over distances of 300 feet or more, but is not that important for most household situations.

4. A decade ago, I did some work on houses that a developer had prewired that had outer jacket material that became so brittle when frozen that when I bent it just to hold it to dress the ends, it split off like a snake sheds its outer skin. I don't know how common it is to encounter junk like that, but it was that way at several houses I serviced in the same development.

As you might imagine, I always buy price when I buy coax, and have never been burned for having done so.
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post #13 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I take it I shouldn't be concerned with aluminum braid vs. tinned copper braid? I see a lot of cable with aluminum braid that seems to have high sweep testing. I have never installed any form of cable that wasn't copper so I am having a hard time accepting the aluminum braid versions. It would definitely save me a ton of money so maybe i should get over it.
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post #14 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 11:21 AM
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I tend to think that in residential settings, working with high frequencies (950-3000MHz) and sending power over coax, satellite techs have pretty strict cable requirements. The industry standard is dual shield 60% aluminum braid rg6 swept tested to 3GHz. A 1000' spool runs me around $60. I can get lower quality, even cheaper cable, but I prefer DES.
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post #15 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopps View Post
I take it I shouldn't be concerned with aluminum braid vs. tinned copper braid? I see a lot of cable with aluminum braid that seems to have high sweep testing. I have never installed any form of cable that wasn't copper so I am having a hard time accepting the aluminum braid versions. It would definitely save me a ton of money so maybe i should get over it.
No, the deciding factor is shielding percentage. In a modern RF distribution application you want a cable that has a 100% foil shield. The drain wires (braid) are basically there to enhance conductivity.
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post #16 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post
No, the deciding factor is shielding percentage. In a modern RF distribution application you want a cable that has a 100% foil shield. The drain wires (braid) are basically there to enhance conductivity.
I intend on having a mid to high grade cable so the foil shield is going to be present no matter what. I was asking specifically about the braid materials. Wouldn't a tinned copper braid be a better conductor than aluminum? Should it be a deciding factor in choosing cable?
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post #17 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Skytrooper View Post
Looks like good cable, Network. Personally, I don't like quad. Be sure to purchase good quad compression F connectors.
I use compression connectors for all my cables - I hate crimps.

As far as Quad verses non-quad, it was $5 different between the two for the same 1000' reel. I went with quad since it would be in the walls and in the attic where it might be near electrical runs. If nothing else, it makes me feel better.

I usually buy the spool length of coax because I use it whenever I need long cables. When I fished a component run from my living room to my master bedroom, that's what I used.

For shorter runs, it's easier to just buy ready made stuff from Monoprice.

Last edited by NetworkTV; 08-15-2014 at 12:59 PM.
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post #18 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopps View Post
I intend on having a mid to high grade cable so the foil shield is going to be present no matter what. I was asking specifically about the braid materials. Wouldn't a tinned copper braid be a better conductor than aluminum? Should it be a deciding factor in choosing cable?
I'm sorry, in the 30 some years I've dealt with Coax I've never heard of a tinned copper braid over foil. Every drop cable I've seen was Aluminum or Stainless braid.
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post #19 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopps View Post
I intend on having a mid to high grade cable so the foil shield is going to be present no matter what. I was asking specifically about the braid materials. Wouldn't a tinned copper braid be a better conductor than aluminum? Should it be a deciding factor in choosing cable?
The quality of the conductor matters far more than the braid. A solid copper core will do far more for you in providing a good signal than any other part of the cable.

Having said that, I've never actually encountered a copper braid. All I've ever seen is aluminum (or some mix). What matters to me is the shield is solid aluminum.

Last edited by NetworkTV; 08-15-2014 at 01:02 PM.
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post #20 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post
I'm sorry, in the 30 some years I've dealt with Coax I've never heard of a tinned copper braid over foil. Every drop cable I've seen was Aluminum or Stainless braid.
Ever hear of Belden 1694a?
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post #21 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by acesat View Post
I tend to think that in residential settings, working with high frequencies (950-3000MHz) and sending power over coax, satellite techs have pretty strict cable requirements....
One reason that someone in Hopps's situation might be inclined to use cable that has its frequency sweeps marked on it indicating that it has been swept to satellite frequencues (2-3 GHz) is that satellite companies often hold their installers responsible for conformity with certain installation practices, and even though those practices are often set arbitrarily, failure of the installer to comply with them may result in the installer being "charged back" and his installation commission taken from him should a technician doing a follow-up service call rat the previous technician out for a non-conforming or non-complying installation. An installer who has previously been so-burned might decline to install a system for you using your own prewiring if he sees it would entail utilizing your own wiring that has not been sweep test certified.
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post #22 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post
... in the 30 some years I've dealt with Coax I've never heard of a tinned copper braid over foil. Every drop cable I've seen was Aluminum or Stainless braid.
I haven't either, but I haven't done security camera work in over a decade, so I can't say whether there is such braid ever used in braid-only shielded cable, as I no longer shop for it.

Come to think of it, I have a short reel of headend, dual-shield RG-59 cable that has - get this - 95% braid coverage, where that braid might have been tin plated copper. It is absolutely impossible to put any connectors on that wire other than the ones that were designed for it.

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post #23 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post
I haven't either, but I haven't done security camera work in over a decade, so I can't say whether there is such braid ever used in braid-only shielded cable, as I no longer shop for it.

Come to think of it, I have a short reel of headend, dual-shield RG-59 cable that has - get this - 95% braid coverage, where that braid might have been tin plated copper. It is absolutely impossible to put any connectors on that wire other than the ones that were designed for it.
My understanding is that this type of product is used in broadcast situations for digital /SDI cables quite often. For security we typically used coax with a bare copper braid and no foil.
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post #24 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopps View Post
My understanding is that this type of product is used in broadcast situations for digital /SDI cables quite often.
Always possible. Those lines can run for miles, especially in places like I work where they have to travel from building to building, not just within one (which itself is 150,000sqft or more). I never really paid that much attention to it when I've helped out with installs since it's usually a hurry up job and I'm also using an automatic power stripper which lets me strip cables faster than the time it takes terminate them.

I know the shield is solid aluminum since I see bits of it in the waste bin of the stripper. Whatever braid is in there is usually pulp, so I can't verify what it consisted of.
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post #25 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopps View Post
Ever hear of Belden 1694a?
Interesting. But that certainly isn't a typical drop cable. It looks like a Broadcast TV or Headend cable.
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post #26 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 05:06 PM
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FWIW, tin plated copper shielding is probably useful where one or both ends of the coax is soldered rather than connectorized. Inside an old Tru-Spec BPF-UHF, for example, there is a short coax going from the tuner tank to the F-71 F-61 connector that is solder attached at both ends. I remember when I had to replace that jumper a few years ago, I wound up using copper braid only shiielded wire because I didn't have any foil shielded wire that was solderable.

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post #27 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post
Interesting. But that certainly isn't a typical drop cable. It looks like a Broadcast TV or Headend cable.
Agreed! The team over at bluejeanscable.com recommend it for use in quite a few categories. From Digital audio cables to subwoofer cable, RF, video cables and SDI broadcast wiring. I've heard nothing but good things about the company so I'd like to think I can trust their judgement. If it were cost effective and I had exact lengths determined I would just have them make up the cables for me. The point of the post was merely the fact that my current cable on hand has a strikingly similar makeup as the 1694a but doesn't have the proven sweep testing results. I was hoping to either be convinced to use it or introduced to an equivalent, hopefuly at a lower price point.
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post #28 of 28 Old 08-15-2014, 05:39 PM
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I was hoping to either be convinced to use it or introduced to an equivalent, hopefuly at a lower price point.
If it's permanent prewire why mess around? Better safe than sorry.
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