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I'm still using rabbits ear antenna for my HDTV, need better stronger Antenna signal

9K views 52 replies 22 participants last post by  veedon 
#1 ·
I've been using my outdated rabbits ear antenna for my hdtv's and the signals are quite weak. do you guys have any suggestion on which is the best indoor antenna circulating the net?

I was told to get an outdoor antenna but i'm a little reluctant to because i fear that when the signals are bad i would have to climb up the rooftop to adjust the signals. THanks.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Ken Nist sums up the performance of the R-S DOUBLE-BOW on HDTVPrimer....which provided a usable 6 dBi Gain on Lowest and up to 9 dBi on Highest UHF Channels:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/doublebow.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

"Unfortunately the real antenna is only 12.5 inches wide. It is great above channel 40. But it is just too small for the lower channels."

The old R-S Bowtie Antenna (SINGLE BAY BOWTIE) that Peter Putnam reported on HDTV Expert was about 12-13-in wide (w/o Reflector), about same as Mohu Leaf Metro or Ultimate 50 or Winegard FlatWave (whose elements are longer since they wrap around). Apparently designed for Overseas use where the TV Bands go up to 800 MHz, ALL of these are TOO SMALL for GOOD performance in Hi-VHF Band....although they CAN receive sufficiently STRONG Hi-VHF signals....like perhaps Ch8:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/antennas-antennas-on-the-wallwho-has-the-best-reception-of-them-all

BTW: OPTIMUM SIZE for a Single-Bay Bowtie in the NEW UHF Band is BIGGER...about 20-inches wide...which also provides 2 dBi Raw Gain in Hi-VHF Band (same as Rabbit-Ears)...and YES, a simple length of wire bent into the right SIZE shape performs quite well....and even better when you build a 2-Bay or 4-Bay Array of Bowties:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/dipoles/uhfbowties
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/2bayrefl
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay
 
#35 · (Edited)
The cable is like 2 feet long and worst of all my tv don't even have a connector to connect the thing, it came with 2 little flat U shaped connecters.
Maybe you need one of these:



https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=push-on+tv+balun

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RadioShack-UHF-Bow-Tie-Antenna-150-0234-/271679851884?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f41618d6c

EscapeVelocity of this forum connected the twinlead wires of his antenna to a conventional indoor balun.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...tenna-review-round-up-guide.html#post14047827
 
#40 ·
hmm reading up some more, I'm not sure if the I wonder if the Mohu Amplified Leaf Ultimate is the best antenna I can get.

Seems a lot of people are saying Double Bowtie antennas are considered the best. Especially the Channel Master 4220, but isn't it a UHF only antenna? Won't I need both VHF & UHF signals to get OTA channels?

Here is my TV fool report
http://i.imgur.com/7btugyj.png

I have a pair of amplified rabbit ear antennas that I bought from target a few years back that suck & ldrop the signal to a lot of channels constantly.
 
#41 ·
You need a set of NON-amplifed loop antenna with rabbit ears. Your signals are way too close for anything with an amp, especially with the junky amp that Mohu is now foisting off on their customers. I'm far from impressed with their Leaf antenna, too. It's way more a marketing phenomenon than an actual good performer.
 
#42 ·
I wouldn't talk that bad about the Mohu Leaf Ultimate. I have this antenna. I agree that the supplied amplifier is worthless, but the antenna does a good job for an indoor antenna. And it's not bulky. I've compared it with the Terk HDTVa side-by-side, and I would say that the Mohu Leaf Ultimate performs better. Back in the '90's, I owned one of those Radio Shack double bow-tie antennas, and I was pretty happy with that one too, because where I lived, it seemed to reduce multipath a bit. But those antennas are discontinued and hard to come by, and they don't have a 75-ohm connecter either. For me, the Mohu Leaf Ultimate performs much better when I attach it to my portable TV and place it outside. My house has aluminum siding, which no antenna can compensate for the degredation it causes to TV reception. I'm a happy user of the Mohu Leaf Ultimate, and I recommend it.
 
#43 · (Edited)
My Tv Fool:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df1f095b2c85557

I've had all sorts of antennas and tuners operating at my location. The HDHR homerun is a POS compared to both my panasonic TV's tuner and the Avermedia USB tuner I also use. I've been using this antenna on a mast in my office (near ceiling) for about a year now - a little spotty, but the best for the price:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GIT002/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

BUT I just got this guy set up and it's a HUGE improvement. I am getting everything, and even some spotty Stuebenville!!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IM7KYMC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It comes with an amplifier, TWO coax outputs and a motorized rotor with a REMOTE!! For under $30.
 
#44 · (Edited)
C-M Specs for Metro40 (CM-4220HD) says 8 dB (Q: dBi or dBd???) UHF Gain, 12 dB F/B Ratio and 2 dB (so must be dBi) Hi-VHF Gain...but NO INFO re SWR....although significantly BIGGER than Eagle Aspen, it is still TOO SMALL to be OPTIMUM...as is reflected in the low Gain numbers:
http://www.channelmaster.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-4220hd.htm


First, the Good News: R-S Double Bowtie (2-Bay with Screen Reflector) generates significant UHF Raw Gain (6-10 dBi per HDTVPrimer) in the Forward Direction.
And the BAD News: SWR is so BAD, the NET GAIN drops to below 0 dBi on the lowest frequencies:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

When I modeled it, the low frequency roll-off was 8 dBi vice 6 dBi, but the Front-to-Back Ratio was only 4 dB on the lowest frequencies, rising to only 12 dB on the highest frequencies.....and the SWR was OFF-THE-CHARTS on some frequencies, resulting in NET GAIN even worse than what was reported on HDTVPrimer. Hi-VHF Raw Gain was Bi-Directional 2 dBi, with slightly more to the REAR.....and the HIGHEST SWR I have even seen in a model.....

So, NO the R-S Double Bowtie isn't anywhere close to the "Best" Indoor Antenna....but it's not that bad....compared to the severely compromised VHF-Rabbit-Ears+UHF-Loop.

2-Bay Bowties with Reflector Antennas OPTIMIZED for NEW UHF Band (Ch14-51) are fairly rare (e.g. A-D DB-2e):
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/Technical%20Data%20PDF%27s/DB2E-TDS.pdf

Compare to OPTIMIZED H2 (10.5x12.25) 2-Bay + 11 Reflector Rods, esp. compared to (Old) DB-2 and Eagle Aspen which, like Double Bowtie are ALL TOO SMALL:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/2bayrefl



 
#45 · (Edited)
If you want to see something "off the charts" you ought to see the measured S11/VSWR plots for the standard Leaf.





The comments by Projectsho89 might be a bit generous. It looks like the Leaf is resonant around 460 MHz, and that's about it. I also did relative S21 measurements comparing it to a C1C_w/VHF-1 module and the Leaf, those results are below.





I was going to pull the S21 data into Excel and do a differential plot, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. If someone wants to do so, I've included the .cvs files in the zip file below.
 

Attachments

#49 ·
This has to be one of the most cryptic posts I've ever seen. :D

First I had to figure out what C1C_w/VHF-1 module was. :confused: I finally deciphered it to mean Antennas Direct Clearstream 1 Convertible with the VHF antenna module.


Second I'd be amazed if more than a couple people reading this have any idea what S-Parameters are. ;) I have used s-parameters in the past when describing the characteristics of amplifiers but not antennas. Google to the rescue. :)

I know that S11 is normally Input Return Loss used to calculate VSWR and S21 is gain. But what is S21 when it comes to antennas?:confused: I guess what you did was to set up two antennas facing each other, applied a signal to one and measured the response on the other. The two analyzer traces compare the response of the C1C_w/VHF-1 to the response of the Leaf. Indeed the leaf is pretty bad!

That was an interesting test but a little more explanation for the masses is probably in order. ;)
 
#46 ·
Wow! I knew the Leaf had issues, but those curves make me think that their marketing is bordering on.... well. let's just say that reality doesn't live up to their marketing claims.

Heck, any antenna will work okay for someone somewhere. If it works for you, then it's good enough for your situation. But, when the signals get weaker or the situation gets tougher, the antennas with compromised designs will be the first to fail.
 
#52 · (Edited)
Here is a revision for UHF (Only)...and perhaps very strong Hi-VHF channels that are going to come in no matter what:

I don't have just ONE answer to the question as to which is the "BEST" Indoor UHF Antenna....it all depends on your situation....and LOCATION.....

IF you have strong enough signals, a cheap NON-Amplified VHF-Rabbit-Ears+UHF-Loop (2 dBi or WORSE) may be all you need....and you might even get away with using one of those more expensive Flexible Antennas: Mohu, Flatwave (3-4 dBi), WallTenna (3.5-7.9 dBi w/o Enhancements, etc) or rigid Flat Panels (e.g. C-M, RCA, Terk, W-G, etc)....unfortunately we don't have SWR and Raw Gain curves for most of these. Note that I determined Optimum Dimensions to Enhance performance of the 2-Bay Bowtie WallTenna, which is transparent to place in a convenient WINDOW, where the signals are strongest:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/uhf2bays/hivhfuhf2baywalltennaenhancements

Unfortunately NON-Amplified DIRECTIONAL Silver-Sensor UHF Antennas (to reduce Multipath) with VHF-Rabbit-Ears, such as Terk HDTVi (abt 7 dBi) and Philips equivalent appear to have been discontinued. This primarily leaves the Terk HDTVa (abt 7 dBi) which shouldn't be used with strong nearby FM and TV signals.

To obtain about 3 dB more Gain, you COULD mount one of the above Antennas in FRONT of a Reflector Screen (could be Aluminum Foil over Cardboard) that is AT LEAST 20% bigger than the Antenna (Bigger is probably Better). Separation should be about 5.5-inches...and it needs to be POINTED toward desired stations.

About the only NON-Amplified DIRECTIONAL Indoor Antennas with significantly more Gain than simple Rabbit-Ears (2 dBi or WORSE) is the Clearstream C1 (7.2-8.1 dBi).

If you need higher Gain in an Indoor location, consider "hiding" an OUTDOOR Antenna in a convenient Closet or Attic, such as Clearstream C2 (9.2-10.2 dBi) or for more Gain, any of the 4-Bay Bowtie Antennas....or even an expensive 8-Bay Bowtie Antennas. [I use a CM4228 8-Bay Bowtie hidden upstairs in a storage closet.]
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl

Of course, if your stations aren't conveniently located in one general Direction, you many be FORCED to use one (or two) of the Bi-Directional Antennas mentioned above.

=======================================
In the ANTENNA SIMULATIONS link in my signature line, you'll find over 600 Antennas, mostly DIY Projects, that have been analyzed (and a BUNCH more on nikiml's website). The amount of Raw Gain increases as the size of the Antennas gets bigger and bigger....but for INDOOR use, I favor the 2-Bay, 4-Bay, and the extremely simple to build Hourglass-Loop and similar Quad-Trap. Although the UHF Hourglass-Loop provides significant Raw Gain, a simple UHF Loop may be all you need....and is significantly better than simple Rabbit-Ears with their compromised Impedance Matching Network....

A GOOD DIY Indoor Antenna for UHF (ONLY) could be a simple Project attaching a 300-75-ohm Transformer Balun to a 26.75-in piece of wire bent into a Circular Loop with OPTIMIZED 8.5-in Diameter (larger than usual Rabbit-Ears Loop)...or any of the higher Gain Twin-Loop (Figure-8), UHF Hourglass-Loop or Quad-Trap Antennas (et. al.) listed here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfcircular
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops
Note that versions are included above with Reflectors to increase Gain and also suppress Multipath & Interference coming in from the Rear.

Even better than any Loop Antenna is the newly Optimized H2+11RR, which is the current KING of the 2-Bay Bowties...only (barely) exceeded by the 2-Bay SOLID Triangle. Also note that H2+11RR was also "Best" for Hi-VHF with lower SWR (still Excessive, so not that impressive) and considerable Raw Gain FORWARD (unlike OLD DB-2, Eagle Aspen 2-Bay...and other TOO SMALL commercial products):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/uhf2baysolidtrianglesvarrrs
[I didn't do a run without the Reflector Rods....should reduce Raw Gain by about 3 dB.]

For even more Gain, Dimensions for the OPTIMIZED FF4 or mclapp (sells a Kit) M4 4-Bay Antennas can be found here with & without Reflectors
[Listed in Order, BEST at Top]:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl

Note that we also did a design exercise for the "BEST" Hi-VHF/UHF Antenna that could be HIDDEN behind a user's existing Picture mounted in a 3x2-ft METAL frame....where the METAL Frame HELPED Hi-VHF performance at the expense of UHF performance.....and MIGHT be somewhat skewed from optimal pointing angle, so check Azimuthal Patterns very carefully for any given situation. Alternatively, you could mount one of the UHF (Only) Antennas mentioned above inside (or sticking slightly out of) a NON-METALLIC Frame (e.g. wood or fibreglass):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfuhfin3ftx2ftpictureframeloop
 
#53 · (Edited)
The OP might get better information for his local area by posting in the Milwaukee thread.

Also, it may be helpful to know what programming is available on the channels in the Milwaukee market and to know which channels are truly broadcasting on VHF. It turns out that nearly all of the channels are broadcasting on UHF, not VHF.

The public TV station WMVS (virtual channel 10) broadcasts on both VHF (RF 8 transmitter) and UHF (RF 36 transmitter). Another public TV station, WMVT, has the virtual channel number 36 but actually transmits on the physical channel RF 35. And WMVS is actually also carried on one of the standard-definition subchannels of WMVT, so if an OTA viewer cannot receive either of the two signals (RF8 and RF36) being transmitted by WMVS, that viewer still might be able to watch WMVS via the WMVT RF35 signal. It appears that WMVT also has a couple of music subchannels (jazz and classical).

The site rabbitears.info is excellent for telling which stations in a market are worth caring about.
Here's the info for Milwaukee.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wtmj#station
 
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