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Not getting VHF-Hi in Grand Haven, MI

3K views 65 replies 12 participants last post by  holl_ands 
#1 ·
Hey all, first post but you have helped me a lot over the years by reading others posts, so thanks! Im stumped this time though.

I'm trying to accomplish a reliable antenna setup in Grand Haven, MI (49417) to receive the major networks (FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC). I can get FOX & ABC but have some trouble with CBS (3.1) and NBC (8.1). These both appear to be running on VHF-Hi.

Here are the vitals:
(TV Fool link 4 posts down...sorry...)
Antenna(s): ClearStream 2V and I have also tried RCA ANT751R.
Antenna pointed: 128 degrees
Cable: RG6
Receiver: ViewTv AT-163
Height: 12ft AGL
Location: Outside, 2' above roof level
Pre-Amp: Winegard LNA-200
System Map: [receiver (x2)]---75ft (x2)---[2 way splitter]--1ft--[LNA-200]---25ft---[ANT751R]

On the TV Fool channel list, I can get all channels from the top until I get to WOOD-DT (8.1virt, 7 real) which is right on the verge, some days good, some days bad. The next one down, WWMT (3.1virt, 7 real) has never come in. However moving down one more to WOTV (41.1virt, 20 real)..I get perfect reception...everything else below that on the list is dead.

I was running only the 2V and thought the ANT751 might do better on VHF, but the results were almost identical when it came to WOOD & WWMT. I even plugged the ANT751 into the VHF input of the 2V instead of its own VHF antenna. Right now I only have the ANT751 and I can tell that the UHF is suffering. The only combo i have not yet tried is using a combiner to run both the 2V and the 751 at the same time.

I was originally hoping to do an attic setup and this setup was just a test, but with the trouble I'm having getting an outdoor signal, I'm not so sure that is still an option.

If anybody has ideas on how I could pull in channel 3&8(virt), that would be awesome!
 
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#8 ·
I did a generic FM Fool report for your zip code and you do have two extremely strong FM stations (92.1 and 93.1) whose 2nd harmonics fall in channel 8 & 9. This could be the issue especially since you're using a preamp. The LNA200 FM filter has no attenuation below 96MHz so it won't help you. This really shouldn't be the problem with channel 7 though. Try the recommended FM filter and let us know if it solves your problem. We've had some ongoing discussion about FM filters so we'd like to know when the filter solves the problem.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Thanks so much for this, I'm in Grand Haven too and the fm trap really cleaned up my reception on VHF 8 (CBS).

Disappointed OP never came back with results on the antenna suggestions, but I'll add my 2 cents anyway:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=2c15b495168fb8
Can't post full links so replace with the correct domain.

I've got a DIY mclapp vertical 10x9.5 8-bay (aka m8) up in the attic tilted 30 degrees skyward and pointed 120 degrees. It has a flat reflector and holl_ands' suggested anti-multipath 1.5x bay spacing between the two m4's.

The roof is 1/2 osb with two layers of asphalt shingles.

The antenna feeds into a +15db distribution amp, after which comes the Radioshack FM trap, then a HDTC-2US network tuner. (Putting the trap before the amp resulted in wild swings in reported signal power and quality.)

I get all local VHFs (7, 8, 11, 13) quite well. In my experience VHFs 11 and 13 are so strong they are almost impossible to not receive.

Without the FM trap, VHF 8 was hit-and-miss, day-to-day, hovering between 45% and 60% signal quality on the HDTC-2US's tuner display. FM trap bumped that up to between 55%-70%.

I've tried a similar m4 and the new FF4 with flat reflectors and the VHF performance on both was poor. Could not get VHF 7 reliably or VHF 8 at all (40%-45%). Would have gone vertical-stacked FF4 aka FF8 but I don't have 9 feet in the attic. Barely had the 7 feet for the m8.

***

Long story short, you should be able to cram a single >10 dB VHF-hi antenna in your attic and get NBC and CBS in Grand Haven. ABC and PBS you get almost by default.

Last major station is FOX which is super strong on 19.

***

Now that the snow is almost gone I am thinking of clamping a FF4 no-reflector outside on the soil stack, which should be low-profile enough to pass aesthetic muster.

Any suggestions on an (attic located) dedicated VHF-hi antenna design to UVSJ to? I've been crawling through holl_ands site and even among the 10-foot yagis I'm having trouble finding anything with better gain than the jack-of-all-trades m8 already up there!
 
#9 ·
Neither antenna is likely enough for those VHF channels, though I would try an FM trap as suggested first. If you have a close by Radio Shack you could try one of their traps to see if it offers any improvement in the interim.

How is the antenna mounted? Is it close to any metal objects?
 
#10 ·
As for how the antenna is mounted, its in a neighborhood setting, on the east side of the house mast mounted just under the 1st floor eaves on a 38" mast. Currently the ANT751 is at the very top of the mast and the 2V is near the bottom...about 20" of vertical separation. Nothing particularly metal except for power lines about 40' away, AC unit about 15' away. House is cement block. 2 story cement block wall 10' away (@ 3:00 position)

Thanks for the tips on FM! It also made me remember that about less than a mile away is a tourist trap we have here that broadcasts a small simulcast type station on 88.7. Its not listed on the FM Fool list and not sure how strong it transmits. I wouldn't be surprised if they keep it on all the time though and I believe that harmonic is smack dab in the middle of Ch7, right?

Ive got a Radio Shack about 10 miles away that has This Trap in stock. I'll try it today and order the antennas direct FM filter also.

If that doesn't work, what VHF antenna do you think I'd have to get? Also, I suppose it could be possible to move the antenna to the 2nd story roof, but its not easy to get to...
 
#11 ·
I would install the trap before the amp & remove the 2V antenna from the mast. It may be interfering with the ANT751. Try doing this & report back.

The RS trap works well above 90 MHZ, but should attenuate the signal on 88.7 enough to see if it is affecting channel 7.

Did you ever test reception with no amp or splits?
 
#12 · (Edited)
ADTECH measured LNA-200, and in the one and only unit he tested, the Noise Figure (Sensitivity) was considerably higher than the claimed spec in the VHF Band and a bit higher in the UHF Band. You might want to consider trying RCA TVPRAMP1, which one user has found to have much higher Overload Desensitization capability than several other W-G or C-M Preamps and has been measured to have NF = 2.0 to 2.6 It also has separate VHF and UHF Inputs to eliminate 0.5 to 1.0 dB Loss in the VHF/UHF Combiner:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1726842
BTW: You should also try (C2-V's) VHF/UHF Combiner on the OUTPUT of the Preamp to reduce Overload problems...but if you plan to replace it note that Pico-Macom & Hollands UVSJ devices are unsuitable since they do not PASS DC to the Preamp on the UHF Port.

FYI: To allow Ch6 to PASS, R-S 15-024 FM Trap provides about 15-19 dB Attenuation on those Frequencies (that's pretty good), whereas A-D FM Filter provides about 23 dB (so you MIGHT NOT need it): [See R-S REVIEW Comments for 15-024 Freq. Response, A-D measured the OLD RS-577 (377 was a typo on the Chart):
http://www.radioshack.com/radioshack-fm-trap/1500024.html#.VI9HV3t_y0s&tab=tab3
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...tance-needed-newbie-alert-3.html#post29941865

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You have a particularly difficult assortment of major Networks, requiring reception from TWO DIRECTIONS that are a about RIGHT ANGLES to each other. So if an Antenna is pointed toward the weakest Network, the Local Network stations are in the NULL of that Antenna. Usually, this would require separate downlead cables with an A/B Switch, or a (nominal 4 dB Loss) RF Combiner for TWO Antennas: ANT741 receiving signals coming from about 30-deg plus a higher Gain NEW UHF/VHF Antenna system to receive signals coming from about 126-deg (re TRUE NORTH).

However, in your case I think it's worth trying just one NEW Antenna System, although Loss on Distant stations might be on the order of the 4 dB Loss in the RF Combiner...it just might work. The New Antenna is pointed perhaps 20-40 degrees COUNTERCLOCKWISE from 126-deg (146-166 deg) with only a small decrease from Max Gain, but enough to bring the stronger Local signals out of the Null and up onto the Sidelobe part of the Azimuthal Pattern.

For example, in the fol. CM4228HD Antenna Pattern, Distant weak signals would be aligned on say the 115-120 deg point in the Pattern, resulting in 8-9 dBi Gain in that direction (-3 dB lower Gain than Max), resulting in Local strong signals being aligned on the the 30-25 deg point in the Pattern, resulting in -3.7 to -0.8 dBi in that direction...or a couple dB worse than a Dipole, equivalent to inserting a 10-15 dB Attenuator, leaving plenty of signal strength from Local stations. Same general argument holds for Y10-7-13 example:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/uhfnewcm4221hd
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/logyagi/y10713

One alternative Antenna Upgrade would be to one of the larger Hi-VHF/ UHF Combo's such as HBU-44 (Hi-VHF Gain = 8.8 dBd = 11 dBi and UHF Gain = 8.2 dBd = 10.4 dBi). RCA ANT751 is roughly equivalent to HBU-11....so HBU-44 would be a 4-5 dB improvement. Or an equivalent Gain Combo from C-M or W-G. Following pointing arguments also apply to this alternative, although Antenna Patterns are usually not available.

For even more Gain at about the same cost, you could use C-M CM4221HD (UHF Gain = 11.2-14.8 dBi) or Antennas-Direct DB-4e (UHF Gain = 11.7-14.4 dBi) with Antennacraft Y10-7-13 (Hi-VHF Gain = 9.4 dBd = 11.6 dBi). This will allow you to point the Hi-VHF Antenna towards weaker Ch7 (NBC) & Ch8 (CBS) at 125-130 degrees (which is close enough to 113-deg for Ch11) and the much stronger Ch13 (local ABC) at 42-deg SHOULD come in on the Sidelobe....but you'll need to tweak the direction maybe 20-40 degrees to get it out of the Deep Side Null. IF this doesn't work, you'll have to either use a Rotator or an RF Combiner to add in the signals from your ANT-751 pointed to 42-deg.

UHF Antenna would also be pointed towards Ch19 (FOX) at 126-deg, which would also receive Ch20 (distant ABC) at 131-deg and Local Ch24 (IND) at 114-deg. Ch46 (Local NBC) at 27-deg is in the Antenna Pattern NULL, so you probably won't get it, but you still might try tweaking the direction maybe 20-40 degrees to see if it comes in without losing FOX. [Separate Antennas allows different offset settings.] IF this doesn't work, you'll have to either use a Rotator or an RF Combiner to add in the signals from your ANT-751 pointed to 27-deg (or somewhere between 27 and 42-deg).
 
#15 ·
Quick update:
I made a few modifications to the setup: I removed the VHF elements from the ClearStream 2V..essentially making it a ClearStream 2, I believe. Also noticed that the indoor 2-way splitter wasn't grounded and I was getting a little zap from the tuner whenever I touched the connectors without shoes on. (Haven't got around to grounding the mast yet, either)


I also just installed the R-S FM Trap when both the ANT751 and ClearStream 2 were combined on the mast and running through the LNA-200...no improvements noted.
Going to do some more testing later of the following setups:
  • ANT751 + CS2 (combined) + FM Trap - No amp or splitters
  • ANT751 + FM Trap - No combiner, amp or splitters
  • ANT751 + FM Trap + LNA-200 - No splitters
  • ANT751 + FM Trap + LNA-200 + 2-way splitter
 
#16 ·
CS2 has UHF Raw Gan of about 9 dBi, much more than 6-7 dBi from ANT-751.
So your BEST current configuration should be CS2 for UHF with ANT-751 for Hi-VHF, plugged into the VHF port of the VHF/UHF Combiner. You should also test this configuration with Preamp and FM Trap....with and without splitters.
 
#17 ·
Here are the results of my testing:
•ANT751 + CS2 (combined) + FM Trap - No amp or splitters -
-Very pixelated on 3.1 (8 real)...No 8.1 (7 real)...all others pretty solid. more steady signal across UHF
•ANT751 + FM Trap (CS2 removed from the mast)
-No combiner, amp or splitters...lost 41.1 (20 real)...right on the verge of 3.1 (8 real)...No 8.1 (7 real)...all others in the 60%-75% range or show some pixelation. (Tuner seems to cutoff below 60%.)
•ANT751 + FM Trap + LNA-200 (CS2 removed from the mast)
-No splitters - 3.1 (8 real) & 8.1 (7 real) were moderately pixelated, the best 3.1 has come in so far. 41.1 came back, most UHF showing some pixelation
•ANT751 + FM Trap + LNA-200 + 2-way splitter (CS2 removed from the mast)
-About the same as above...maybe slight improvement on all channels above, nothing significant though.


Is it worth continuing to experiment with VHF/UHF combiners or is it safe to say that if I couldn't get a solid 3.1 or 8.1 using the above configurations that I'm just going to need to look into a better antenna type/placement?
 
#18 ·
You're gonna need a Bigger Boat.....errr....Hi-VHF Antenna....such as Y10-7-13 I recommended above....use with C2....or upgrade UHF Antenna as well...
 
#20 ·
I'm thinking bigger antenna as well. I suggest the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 if you can go that large (10 feet).

The ANT-751 is just not that strong on moderately weak VHF signals. My impromptu testing between the ANT-751, Winegard 7694 & YA-1713 put the ANT-751 well behind both of them on VHF.
 
#21 ·
I don't think I could get away with anything larger than the ANT-751 outdoors...I could go really big if it was attic mounted though. I could get the same Az point and go up to a height of 25 ft AGL in the attic. It'd be shooting through plywood, tar paper & single layer of shingles. Any suggestions that might work for that?
 
#23 ·
Why can't you mount something bigger than an ANT-751 outdoors? That is a very small antenna.

The differences in VHF you saw during your tests is likely to be the variations in atmospheric conditions over the course of your tests and little to do with your different setups. If those VHF stations are right on the edge during your tests with the attic antenna you'll need to pick up at least 10 dB for reliable reception. That's pretty much impossible with a larger antenna alone. You will need something better outside.
 
#26 ·
Since the biggest Antenna...and apparently your bigger problem was Hi-VHF, perhaps the smaller (5-ft Boom, 3-ft Wide) and fairly "invisible" Antennacraft Y5-7-10 will do the job. If it helps, it can also be spray painted to better match the background:
http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/Y5-7-13.pdf

FYI: Based on a number of different tests at a wide variety of locations, there is a 13 dB +/- 7 dB Loss going from Outdoor to an Indoor/Attic Location....that's a HUGE penalty that requires a significant Fade Margin to overcome...and of course....YMMV.....
 
#28 ·
FYI: Based on a number of different tests at a wide variety of locations, there is a 13 dB +/- 7 dB Loss going from Outdoor to an Indoor/Attic Location....that's a HUGE penalty that requires a significant Fade Margin to overcome...and of course....YMMV.....
Holl_ands, I offer you another attic loss data point using the CM4221 with a preamp. Asphalt shingles and 7/16 thick plywood. I receive all the local hi-power stations from Mt. Wilson. KCET is the weakest signal.

TvFool: KCET 28(28.1) PBS 9.4 -81.5 1Edge 29.8 324 deg (312deg)
Sony TV shows: SNR(dB) 31 dB, AGC(%) 34
 
#29 · (Edited)
Got ya beat....70-miles SE from (5000-ft Antenna Height) Mt Wilson, at my son's old place North of French Valley Airport (East of Murrieta) in a VERY high McMansion Attic, fortuitously overlooking a flat ballfield/park with old CM4228, YA-1713, W-G Preamp and 2 drops.

We could get ALL of the Major Networks, weakest being CBS (Ch43, NM = 8.3 dB)....except KUSI (San Diego) Repeater on Ch12 and an Independent on Ch27 (2.9-miles and 5.3-miles away), blocked Ch13 (MyN) and duplicate PBS's on Ch26/28....NONE of which he cared about, so I didn't have to try a Single Channel Filter.

I barely got Ch11 FOX to work after tweaking YA-1713 to Null out Ch12 as best we could...after FCC approved increased power levels. His TVFool Results from 2012 is attached (after Ch27 moved to Ch21, where it was no longer a problem). OUTDOORS I had earlier tested the YA-1713 and when aligned to put Ch12 in the Sidelobe Null, I successfully received ALL Hi-VHF Staions....but my son wasn't enthused about climbing up to mount it....and soon thereafter Dish finally added ALL of the Major Networks in HD, and we only needed OTA for the Digital Channels NOT carried....my how times have changed.....
 

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#32 ·
Sorry for not responding..didn't really end up doing anything new or have any breakthroughs other than adding the LNA200 FM trap which might have made a slight improvement. Also tried the RS FM trap and the LNA200 was a little bit better...nothing drastic though.

fricative, my hunch based on where I am in Grand Haven is that I'm actually getting FM interference from the musical fountain audio broadcast channel! Totally a wild hunch but from what I've understood, I was looking to filter interference from 88.7 FM...which is exactly the channel they broadcast on. Not sure if they leave it on all the time, but I would assume so...its also not a registered channel, so hard to document the interference other than trial and error, but it sure would be a coincidence considering I can hear the fountain from my house.

Once the winter weather really picked up, I stopped climbing on my roof and tweaking the antenna. One of the weekends coming up now that some of the snow is gone, I'm planning on using the same antennas I have, but remounting outside up to the top of the 2nd story instead of the top of the 1st story. I'm very close on signals, I actually played with aiming a few degrees north of what TV fool suggested and I started to get CBS & NBC about 66% of the time depending on weather so I'm hoping that an extra 10-12' of altitude will get me just over the bump for a clear signal. Considering that I get the most solid signal when there is just a little cloud cover and no precipitation, I think that is telling me that I'm just simply not getting a good signal at the antenna now.

curious though fricative, what altitude is your attic at?
 
#33 · (Edited)
I don't get 88.7 where I am, closer to the border with the township. For me it's just WGVU 88.5 with static. I would guess I'm 2 miles from the fountain as the crow flies. I do get 103.5 clear as a bell so if 88.7 is running it must be very, very low powered.

Reading through this and other threads on the subject of FM traps, they aren't very good from 90/92 to 88 MHz. But if the fountain is a problem for you it should only affect VHF 7, not 8.

My attic mclapp m8 antenna, being 7 feet tall, is approximately 20-27 feet above ground.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=2c15b495168fb8

Don't believe my TVfool though, I am surrounded by high dunes, particularly severe to the south; my neighbor's basement is higher up than my roofline. I don't have LOS anywhere, can't even get a satellite dish installed, and I will be interested to see what happens to my signal when the trees start to leaf. Hence why I'd like to get the UHF part at least outside, with a stronger dedicated VHF-hi in the attic.

To TVfool it made almost no difference what height my antenna was at, and in testing outside before I put the m8 in the attic I did not observe much difference between ground level and roof level. But again I am in a saucer.
 
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