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post #1 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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rg6 long run amplifier

I have a rg6 cable running from 2 buildings on my property, my charter cable service (and splitter) comes into one building and the TV signal (to cablel box is too weak to carry to the other building.

They are approximately 1,000 feet between them, is there any way to boost the signal to work over that distance

Thank you in advance
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post #2 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 12:23 PM
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Can Charter help you with that problem?

If not, the signals must be amplified before the splitter to survive the long run.

Low loss 75 ohm coax or hardline is available to reduce the attenuation of the signals.

You will probably need a tilt corrector, because the attenuation factor is frequency dependent. UHF signals get weaker than VHF signals over a long run.

This is what Calaveras did for about 500 feet:
http://www.aa6g.org/DTV/ABD/Antenna_Block_Diagram.html

You will probably need the type of amplifier that cable companies use for cable distribution.
http://www.markertek.com/category/RF...ion-Amplifiers
http://www.fullcompass.com/category/...mplifiers.html
http://www.solidsignal.com/cable-dis...plifier-th.asp

RG6 coax has a loss of 6 dB per 100 feet for UHF
RG11 about 4 dB per 100 feet
1/2 inch hardline has an attenuation factor of 6 dB at 600 MHz for 100 meters
3/4 inch hardline has an attenuation factor of 4 dB at 600 MHz for 100 meters
http://www.commscope.com/catalog/bro...uct.aspx?id=16
http://www.commscope.com/catalog/bro...id=47038&tab=1

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Last edited by rabbit73; 06-07-2015 at 12:52 PM.
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post #3 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 12:47 PM
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Realistically, no matter what amplifier and cable you choose, you will have to amplify at the midpoint, which means that unless there is a really convenient 110 volt power source near the midpoint - like AC power to parking lot lights that are always on - you will need to use a cable TV amplifier that can be powered by 60 VAC injected into the line. The properly selected amplifier will also have the right cutoff frequency for sub band return, though that is pretty much the same for every cable system (famous last words!), and the upper frequency limit of the system may be 860 MHz or it may be 1,000 MHz, so you might as well buy the 1,000 MHz amplifier even if you don't need it now, as you might need it in the future.

The Commscope website says that its .500 hardline cable loses about 76dB over 1,000 feet at 860 MHz and 83dB at 1,000MHz, whereas its .750 hardline loses 53 and 57dB respectively. Last time I checked, cable TV line extender amplifiers typically had gain figures of 30 to 33dB, so to do this with just one inline extender, you really should go with the .750 hardline.

Those amplifiers do not have linear gain or tilt controls. They accept plug-in attenuator and tilt compensator pads. You will probably be using a near max value tilt compensator to level the spectrum before entering the line extender amplifier, and no attenuator. If you then distribution amplify at the second building, you may use an inline tilt compensator ahead of that distribution amp as well.

Hardline typically comes on big reels that take two guys to maneuver. Those reels typically contain a length of a couple thousand feet, but most major warehouses will have so-called "broken reel" lengths that might be close to a perfect fit for your situation.

You would benefit from enlisting the assistance of your local cable company... unless they have already told you that either you delegate the entire job to them or that they otherwise will not participate.

Last edited by AntAltMike; 06-07-2015 at 01:28 PM.
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post #4 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Can Charter help you with that problem?
If it's for free?

Just a suggestion... pay for second installation/subscription.
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post #5 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 01:20 PM
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I see you asked about this before:
Outdoor coax cable

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 06-07-2015 at 01:23 PM.
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post #6 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 01:56 PM
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From the above referenced thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by AntAltMike

"Good luck finding 25dB gain amplifiers with 15dB slope adjustments."


The Toner TDA35 distribution amp has 35dB forward gain with 20dB of slope control. It also has 18dB of reverse gain. I spec'd them for a townhouse development mainly because I could power them remotely, and was quite pleased at how stable they were sitting outdoors in pedestals.
It turns out that I bought one of those TDA-35-1000/42 amplifiers right after Ed had pointed them out to me, but I bought it used, without the required 6VDC, 1 amp power supply, so I never used it, and "left hand on the Bible, right hand to God", I have been using it to prop up the sagging foot end of my bed box!

I have it in front of me and am now popping the cover off it for the very first time. The 20dB gain adjustment, 18dB tilt adjustment and 20dB return path gain adjustment are all five-turn potentiometers, which is very unusual for this class of product. It is in a cast aluminum box with a gasket-sealed removable cover (single hex socket cover screw) and the F input and output ports are mechanically sound. The environmentally vulnerable part of the package is the 6 volt push in DC jack.

The label says it was manufactured in Turkey in April of 2010.

While the specs for this amp are impressive, it does not look like it can be line powered, but if dpw-ct can get conventional residential line power to the midpoint, it looks like a good fit for his situation.
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post #7 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpw-ct View Post
I have a rg6 cable running from 2 buildings on my property, my charter cable service (and splitter) comes into one building and the TV signal (to cablel box is too weak to carry to the other building.

They are approximately 1,000 feet between them, is there any way to boost the signal to work over that distance

Thank you in advance
Thanks

here is the set up that I currently have and is not working. Any recommendations should I put the amp some where else or get a better amp?

Bldg 1, one Cable line In from cable operator
standard 2 way Splitter : ________________> Cable Mode
______________________> standard 4 way splitter (X)

X >>>> 3 cable boxes (Dig HD) + X

plus X >>> Motorola Signal Booster 4-Port BDA-S4 Cable Modem TV HDTV Amplifier

From signal booster >> approx. 1000 ft RG6 to Bldg 2 >> cable Box

This set up not enough to get signal to Bldg 2 cable box – time does not update on cable Box
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post #8 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 03:35 PM
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You must amplify before the line loss. Once the signal is gone, it can't be recreated by an amp.

Cable In > Line Amp* > Drop Tap to 4-way > 500 ft 3/4" hardline > Line Amp* > 500 ft 3/4" hardline > Booster amp if needed* > Bldg 2 Cable Box

* Tilt correction where needed

AntAltMike: Please correct me if needed; you know a lot more about this than I do.

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post #9 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post
From the above referenced thread:
While the specs for this amp are impressive, it does not look like it can be line powered, but if dpw-ct can get conventional residential line power to the midpoint, it looks like a good fit for his situation.
Just use a couple of power inserters to carry the DC via the coax. In my applications, I just ran a 16-2 cable from pedestal to pedestal and connected a 24VAC transformer, stepping it down and converting it to DC where I needed.

CIAO!

Ed N.
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post #10 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
You must amplify before the line loss. Once the signal is gone, it can't be recreated by an amp.

Cable In > Line Amp* > Drop Tap to 4-way > 500 ft 3/4" hardline > Line Amp* > 500 ft 3/4" hardline > Booster amp if needed* > Bldg 2 Cable Box

* Tilt correction where needed

AntAltMike: Please correct me if needed; you know a lot more about this than I do.
Cable In > Line Amp* House amp > Drop Tap to 4-way > 500 ft 3/4" hardline > Tilt compensated Line Extender Amp* > 500 ft 3/4" hardline > Tilt compensated Booster amp if needed* > Bldg 2 Cable Box.

The term "House amplifier" is used to denote a high powered amplifier that is powered by a wall outlet, rather than by a powered coax, like a Blonder Tongue BIDA series amplifier. The term "Line extender amplifier" is the coax powered, amplifier of choice of the cable company. When I started in this business, they were typically powered by 30 volts AC, by the 1980s, they were typically 60 VAC, and when the industry moved towards 90 VAC lines, there was concern that low voltage wiring regulations would have to be rewritten, and surely they were.

As far as tilt compensation is concerned, the Commscope .750 cable loses just 1.2dB/100feet at 55 MHz (cable channel 2), so the midpoint inline amplifier and the destination distribution amplifier, called Booster in this connection sequence, would each need to be preceded by about 20dB of tilt compensation.

Last edited by AntAltMike; 06-07-2015 at 06:57 PM.
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post #11 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 04:58 PM
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Here is a relatively inexpensive inline passive equalizer or tilt compensator that I commonly use. I typically pay about $10 each for them.

Notice that the part number incorporates a "900" but the published specs say they are good to 1 GHz. Our industry is great like that. Back when the passives manufacturers had hundreds of thousands of 950-1,450 MHz satellite splitters in inventory and it appeared that the industry might commit to "stacked", L-band signals going up to 2.GHz or higher, some of the manufacturers "converted" their inventory into sellable products by simply sticking more flattering frequency response stickers over the older stickers. Yeah, they worked to 2,050 MHz, but they lost another 5dB over that last 500 MHz of bandwidth. That said, I doubt that there would be a frequency response problem with these equalizers at 1 GHz (1000 MHz)

Toner Cable XEQ-900 1 GHz Miniature In-Line Equalizers





Features

  • 1” Square Diecast Housing
  • Machined F Connectors
  • Mounting Tab
  • 100 dB RFI Shielding
  • 5-1000 MHz Bandwidth
  • 5 Values - 3, 6, 9, 12, and 16 dB
  • 22 dB Return Loss
  • 75 Ohm Impedance




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post #12 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post
Just use a couple of power inserters to carry the DC via the coax. In my applications, I just ran a 16-2 cable from pedestal to pedestal and connected a 24VAC transformer, stepping it down and converting it to DC where I needed.
I could jerry rig that. Heck, when I worked for Jerry Peake, we jerry-rigged just about everything! That's the way the antenna business was. You walk into a job and say, "Now lets see: I don't have the parts that I'd like to have, I don't have the tools I'd like to have, I don't have the manpower I'd like to have, and I'm not too wild about the sight-unseen plan I'm being asked to implement. Hmmm. Now, how do I make this all work?" If you can't function in that kind of a work environment, then there is no place for you in the antenna business.

The problem with jerry-rigging low voltage DC line powering is that since the 6VDC amplifier input does not have an onboard regular, the input voltage is supposed to be a near bullseye. How much voltage drop will there be over 500 feet of Commscope .750 hardline? Well, the "loop resistance" is .76 ohms per 100 feet, or about 4 ohms to the midpoint. But what is the load resistance? While the power supply is mandated to be able to source 1 amp, the amp draws much less than that. If it draws one amp, then its load resistance is about 6 ohms, and so you'd need to put 10 volts across the power inserter to have it drop to 6 volts to the load, but if the amplifier were only dropping half an amp, or even a quarter of an amp, then its internal resistance would effectively be 12 ohms or 24 ohms, and so the inserted voltage would then have to be lower, like 8 volts if the load was to draw half an amp, or closer to 7 volts if it drew one fourth of an amp.

Warning! I haven't had to do these rudimentary calculations in over a decade, when I really had to push the range of 13V/18V satellite LNB switching to absurd lengths, so if any engineers want to correct them, then by all means, feel free to do so.

I ran really long, DC powering RG-6 lines to the DISH DPP LNBs at Johns Hopkins University's language lab, and so I goosed the DC voltage level, but then I installed a "break out" voltage measurement tap at the LNB just so I could confirm its efficacy right at the LNB under actual running conditions. Regrettably, anyone who comes here looking for help is probably not suited to doing that, as if he was, he wouldn't be here asking how to do it.

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post #13 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 08:14 PM
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We used Altronix SMP3s to drop the 24VAC to 6VDC. We also had network switches that we ran off the same line. They were 7.5VDC, so we had some other power modules that we built for them.

I believe that all that's in the power supply on the input is a diode or two. If so, you could connect a 12 or 18VDC power supply and still use an SMP3 at the amp (with power inserters). Depending on the input, they put out a regulated 6, 12, or 24volts.

CIAO!

Ed N.
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post #14 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post
We used Altronix SMP3s to drop the 24VAC to 6VDC. We also had network switches that we ran off the same line. They were 7.5VDC, so we had some other power modules that we built for them.

Looks like a cool thing. Widely available in the $30 to $40 price range from known vendors, a couple of less well known vendors have it priced in the upper $20s.




http://www.altronix.com/products/pro...mages/smp3.jpg


Input:

  • 16VAC to 28VAC.
  • Output:
  • 6VDC, 12VDC or 24VDC selectable output.
  • 2.5 amp continuous supply current.
  • Filtered and electronically regulated output.
  • Short circuit and thermal overload protection.
  • Battery Backup:
  • Built-in charger for sealed lead acid or gel type batteries.
  • Automatic switch over to stand-by battery when AC fails.
  • Maximum charge current 0.3 amp.
  • Battery short circuit protection (circuit breaker).
  • Visual Indicators:
  • AC input and DC output LED indicators.
  • Electrical:
  • Operating temperature: -20° C to 49° C ambient.
  • BTU/Hr.:
  • - 6VDC: 7.68 BTU/Hr.
  • - 12VDC: 15.35 BTU/Hr.
  • - 24VDC: 30.71 BTU/Hr.
  • System AC input VA requirement:
  • - 6VDC/12VDC: 55.2VA.
  • - 24VDC: 115VA.
  • Features:
  • Extremely compact design.
  • Includes battery leads.
  • Snap Track compatible (order Altronix model number ST3).
  • Lifetime Warranty

Quote:
I believe that all that's in the power supply on the input is a diode or two. If so, you could connect a 12 or 18VDC power supply and still use an SMP3 at the amp (with power inserters). Depending on the input, they put out a regulated 6, 12, or 24volts.
I suspect that it is more sophisticated than that, as the power semiconductor doesn't look like anything big enough to output 2.5 amps if used as a linear regulator.

• System AC input VA requirement:
- 6VDC/12VDC: 55.2VA.
- 24VDC: 115 VA

Still, it isn't that difficult to scrounge up a suitable AC source.

Last edited by AntAltMike; 06-07-2015 at 09:15 PM.
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post #15 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 09:10 PM
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I had them out in pedestals and never had one fail. As you've seen, they come in a variety of sizes. Quite a handy little unit.

CIAO!

Ed N.
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post #16 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 09:20 PM
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I have a bunch of 26.3VAC wall transformers that I probably paid under $10 each for. I think they are rated to 40VA, which is a little under Altronix's 55.2VA "requirement", but that rating is for 2.5 amps of output at 12 volts, so they would be more than adequate to source it for less than an amp of output at 6 volts DC.

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post #17 of 19 Unread 06-07-2015, 09:27 PM
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I just saw your earlier postings in this thread where you mentioned those Toner equalizers. I, too, am a fan of those. Excellent little units.

CIAO!

Ed N.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post
I suspect that it is more sophisticated than that, as the power semiconductor doesn't look like anything big enough to output 2.5 amps if used as a linear regulator.
Correct; it's a switcher, as described for the smp3E. But then you have to wonder about RFI, and hope the filters are good.

SMP3E
Switching Power Supply/Charger. 6/12/24VDC @ 2.5A. Grey Encl.



http://www.altronix.com/products/product.php?name=SMP3E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
But then you have to wonder about RFI, and hope the filters are good.
Well, filtering was good enough to cascade several of them to distribute 48 analog channels (and, eventually, ~15 or so ATSC channels) utilizing the amps mentioned earlier in this thread. Yes, clean pictures.

CIAO!

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