Breaking News: Dish Network 121 slot / SuperDish! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Claude Greiner of Dish Retailer has posted pictures from Team Summit of the new, 26" "Superdish" for HDTV that is able to receive 110 and 119, plus either the 105 or 121 slots. New, more realistic mockup images of the "Superdish" can be found here and here, with the closeup of the triple LNB right here. Team Summit is the conference Dish Network holds every year for dealers to show and demonstrate its upcoming technologies.

According to the official announcement right here, the new Superdish will provide capacity for up to 50 HDTV channels, primarily from the new 105 degree location. Among the first new channels to use the "Superdish" will be HDNet and HDNet Movies, coming this fall. The "Superdish" will eliminate the need for a second dish for HDTV from Dish Network.

Dish Retailer has also posted details and pictures from Team Summit on the upcoming Dish Network 811 receiver (replaces 6000), as well as the 211 and 921 HDTV receivers. According to what he was told, the Dish Network 811 HDTV receiver will retail for less than the 6000 ($299), but will ship with OpenTV, a faster EPG, integrated 8PSK and 8VSB, DishPro support, plus DVI and component ouputs in a silver chassis. It's reportedly coming later this year.

Dish Network also announced new "Dish Pro Plus" technology. Dish Pro Plus allows a single cable to support dual tuners. Thus, rather than having to run two cables from a dish or switch, you'd only need to run one cable to support dual tuners. DP Plus switches also integrates the DishPro legacy adapter, eliminating the need for an adapter to support older hardware. The technology will be integrated into dishes, as well as future switches (click for wiring diagram).

Update #2: According to the Dish Network Tech Chat on July 14:

- Superdish will be available this fall
- 6000 receiver supports the Superdish
- New 811 HDTV receiver (w/ OTA) announced at $299
- New 921 HDTV PVR announced at $999
- Future HDTV will be at 105, not 121. A satellite is moving to 105.
- Cinemax HD, Starz HD, and more are coming, still talking to ESPN
- Superdish will not be free, but there will be upgrade program
- No HD going to 110, 105 (single dish solution) is the slot for all HDTV
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post #2 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 08:39 AM
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BFDTV, what is available at the 121 sat location?

Pocatello
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post #3 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 08:47 AM
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Any word on the HD-PVR921 connecting to Mitsubishi sets vis Firewire?

Mike aka Hot
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post #4 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Pocatello,
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what is available at the 121 sat location?
Nothing yet. The Echostar IX satellite doesn't launch to 121 degrees until later this month (assuming everything is on schedule), and you're not going to see any programming from that slot until the satellite is in orbit and operational.

Update: Looks like the E*IX launch has been delayed until at least July.
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post #5 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Hot,

I think the technical presentations are tomorrow. So if any dealer in attendence knew to ask that question, then we might get an answer.
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post #6 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 09:36 AM
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Yea know, we've seen many pictures of the 921 and nobody can buy one yet and we still don't know when they will be available. Dish has become the Microsoft of the DBS world, keep showing vaporware and when it finally comes out it's full of bugs.

Sorry, but I can't get excited anymore about anything that Dish is showing until you can actually purchase it.
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post #7 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 10:27 AM
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I have a little more confidence in Dish than that. It will still be cool to see what Dish does with IX. FYI: www.dbstalk.com has a bit of info on the 811 HDTV Dish receiver. Its funny that the one pic of the All in one box has the pic of a Dish 6000 on the box.

I would like to think that the Dish 6000 will be history by the time that box hits the street. Unless of course the 811 uses the 6000's chassis.

Going to sign up for Dish Network? PM me for a ClubDish referral number that will give you a $50 credit on your first bill.
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post #8 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 12:48 PM
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thanks

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post #9 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 01:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by rad
Yea know, we've seen many pictures of the 921 and nobody can buy one yet and we still don't know when they will be available. Dish has become the Microsoft of the DBS world, keep showing vaporware and when it finally comes out it's full of bugs.
How do you know it will be "full of bugs"?

Funny how everyone forgets all the delays from so many other companies. I seem to recall incredible delays in the Toshiba HD enabled DirecTV STBs a few years ago. I'm sure a list a mile long can be compiled of companies that have had very long delays in released HD equipment.

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Sorry, but I can't get excited anymore about anything that Dish is showing until you can actually purchase it.
OK.
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post #10 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry G
How do you know it will be "full of bugs"?

Funny how everyone forgets all the delays from so many other companies. I seem to recall incredible delays in the Toshiba HD enabled DirecTV STBs a few years ago. I'm sure a list a mile long can be compiled of companies that have had very long delays in released HD equipment.

Because of past experience with Dish hardware, my 6000 and 501 reboot more then Windows XP systems that I use (and that's four different boxes). Before moving to Dish I had three different models of DirecTV boxes, including a Mits HD STB and NEVER had as many problems with those boxes as I've had with Dish products. Also, I don't remember running to the same amount of delays with DirecTV products that we have with Echostar. Maybe if Echostar would let other manufactures design/manfacture there boxes all along the consumer would benefit by having a better selection of hardware available to use.
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post #11 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 02:51 PM
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.....and if you were wondering why one might need a SuperDish, why not read what Mark Cuban has to say about it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=254631

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #12 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 03:09 PM
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Ok now for my silly little question.

Will the SuperDish system be able to provide HD for more than one HD monitor? I currently have the Dish 500 system (2 dishes, a 301 receiver and a 6000 receiver) for my home. The $1499 for a 40" monitor and receiver seems like a pretty reasonable deal. I'm assuming with the appropriate SW's and cabling I would be able to get HD on two 6000 receivers as well as an additional 301 receiver (for another room)? Anyone?

-T
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post #13 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 03:10 PM
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Thanks for the link, Ken!

You are keeping me up to date!

What great news!

I love E*!


Yippee!

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post #14 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 03:13 PM
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I'm as excited as a puppy when the master comes home. I better find some kleenex to sit on. :)

This is great news and puts a little teeth into Dish's claim that they will be the leader in HDTV. It's just too bad, that in a climate of instant gratification the rollout of HD can be charted with a lethargic dung beetle.
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post #15 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 03:47 PM
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I haven't been paying enough attention. Since when is 121 West a DBS slot? Those are supposed to be spaced 9 degrees apart, aren't they? When was approval granted for DBS frequencies at 121? Won't that that be problematic?

Or will they be using 11.7-12.2 GHz Ku-band for that?

Ron Gomes
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post #16 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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rrg,

You are correct, 121 West isn't a DBS slot. Dish will be using KU-FSS capacity there (32 transponders @ ~120 watts), much like that used by ExpressVu (originally), Starchoice, and the now-defunct Primestar. But there is nothing preventing a DBS provider from integrating DBS and DTH service. The 121 slot is just two degrees part from KU-FSS slots at 119 and 123, which is why the larger 26" elliptical dish is required. By comparison, the Dish500 is 18x21" and the DirecTV dish is 18x24".

The 121 slot will be served the Echostar IX satellite. Originally, this satellite was to launch this month, but technical problems have delayed the launch until July, according to NASA. After launch, there will be at least a few weeks of testing before service is offered from that location.
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post #17 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 04:13 PM
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Actually ExpressVu is using DBS frequencies at both 91 and 82 degrees; it's Star Choice who are using Ku-band at 107 and 111. (Though EVu originally was using Ku-band on Anik E2.) Is that not right?

No special handling is required at the receiver end, I presume (apart from the usual satellite switching hardware? That is, the downlink frequency difference will be handled and hidden by the LNB or LNBF so that the receiver doesn't have to know or care about it?

Ron Gomes
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post #18 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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rrg,

Thanks, I meant Starband. Anik E1 is the KU-FSS satellite at 118.7, and it was originally used by ExpressVu, which is why I had them on my mind.

I'd guess the special LNBF for 121 would handle the differences, without any need for further equipment changes (beyond possibly a receiver software update), but we'll have to wait and see to be certain.
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post #19 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 04:29 PM
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Is their something I'm missing? DTV already has a 3 sat system, and it does not have the capacity for " upto 50 HDTV channels". So what is the magic (or marketing) in the ability of E* to get this much more?

Mike
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post #20 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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MikeKO,

DirecTV may be able to use three satellite slots, but it doesn't have them all to itself. DirecTV has 100% of the capacity at 101, 9% of the capacity at 110, and 34% of the capacity at 119. Dish Network has the rest--- 91% of 110, 66% of 119, and 100% of 121 (11.7-12.2 GHz).
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post #21 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 04:57 PM
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Thanks bfdtv. Appreciate the info.

Mike
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post #22 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 05:19 PM
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So, are you saying that D* will never have the same channel/bandwidth capacity at 101, 110 and 119 that E* will have using their three slots?

Does D* own another slot I'm unaware of for future use? Is D* technically hindered by bandwidth limitations? Is there a solution to this issue? Does D* really have plenty of additional capacity and they just aren't talking about it yet? I know they are planning another sat launch later this year.
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post #23 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 05:39 PM
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IIRC, when D*'s new bird goes up, it will offer a bunch of spot beams that the various locals can go onto, which will free up conus transponders for nation-wide content.
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post #24 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Junkie,
Quote:
So, are you saying that D* will never have the same channel/bandwidth capacity at 101, 110 and 119 that E* will have using their three slots?
That's correct. All capacity at those slots is spoken for.

Quote:
Does D* own another slot I'm unaware of for future use? Is D* technically hindered by bandwidth limitations? Is there a solution to this issue? Does D* really have plenty of additional capacity and they just aren't talking about it yet?
In the short term, DirecTV will gain capacity for six to twelve 1080i HDTV channels, depending on the type of channel (movie channels require less bandwidth than video/sports channels), once the DirecTV-7S satellite is up and they are able to offload locals from 119 conus and onto spot beams. The DirecTV-7S launch is slated for December.

Beyond that, in the short to intermediate term, DirecTV's could lease some KU-FSS capacity (the same type Dish has at 121) from PanAmSat. I doubt they could lease sufficient capacity to deliver anywhere close to 50 HDTV channels, but they could probably lease enough to meet their needs for a number of years, assuming HDTV doesn't catch on too fast. Of course, this would require a new dish, likely one that is a larger than Dish's 26" "super dish" solution.

Long term (5-10 years), there could be a lot of new capacity for both providers in Ka, assuming service in that band is found workable.
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post #25 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 06:50 PM
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Since someone mentioned Starband, I have Starband for my internet. I already have an oversize dish that picks up two satellites for Dish Network and two satellites (send and receive) for Starband.

Does anyone know how the new Dish Network satellite will work with a Starband system?

I went out and looked at my dish and it certainly looks like you could swap out the bracket that supports the two LNBs(?) for one that would support three. I guess the next question is if I have another open port on my switch.

Thanks,
Duane
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post #26 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 07:11 PM
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I currently have 3 dishes, one for each of: 61.5, 110, and 119. I did this because of rain fade, and I'd like to keep it that way. It seems to me all I'll need to do is to re-aim my 61.5 dish to 121, then I'm good to go.

Any flaw in my logic? (I realize I have to wait for the programming to be available on 121).

Also - is there any more info on this 121 satellite? Is this being launched primarily for HD? 50 channels sounds like a lot of bandwidth.
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post #27 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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fred and houset,

Quote:
I currently have 3 dishes, one for each of: 61.5, 110, and 119. I did this because of rain fade, and I'd like to keep it that way. It seems to me all I'll need to do is to re-aim my 61.5 dish to 121, then I'm good to go. Any flaw in my logic?
Quote:
I think the answer is fairly simple regarding the programming at 121. You point your second satellite dish to 121.
This won't work because of the satellite spacing. DBS slots are normally 9 degrees apart--and that (along with high power and the characteristics of DBS spectrum) helps to permit the use of 18" dishes. However, Ku-FSS slots are found every two degrees. Said a different way, with a 18" dish for 110 degrees, you wouldn't have to worry about DBS interference from 101 or 119. But you would have problems with a 18" dish for 121 because of interference from other satellites using the same KU-FSS spectrum at 119 (Anik E1) and 123 degrees (Galaxy 10R), just two degrees apart in both directions.

As a result, the 26" elliptical "super dish" is probably not far off from the minimum size necessary to obtain a reliable signal on the 121 slot, even without the 119 and 110 slots. You may or may not be able to receive 121 with a standalone 24" dish and new LNB, but you almost certainly won't be able to with an 18" model.
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post #28 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 07:35 PM
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bfdtv - thanks

My 3 dishes are indeed 24". I guess I'll just have to wait to see if this works.

Do you think the 26" superdish will be more, less, or equally susceptible to rain fade than the DISH500?
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post #29 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bfdtv
SkyRetailer also posted a picture of the upcoming $1499 Dish HDTV system, which bundles together a 40" widescreen HDTV display, Dish HDTV receiver, and new Superdish for $1499 MSRP.
http://www.skyretailer.com/Dealerpic...summitpic2.jpg
When I saw the picture of the HDTV Bundle (before I read this thread,) I was wondering whether that was a star or a decimal point in the price. $14.99 a month for HDTV, now that would be a radical concept! Any idea what make the HDTV monitor is?

I am assuming that the fruity colors for the SuperDish were strictly for the summit. My neighbors will think I planted a lollipop on the roof!

--Roland
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post #30 of 205 Old 05-01-2003, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I will just add that the elliptical shape and 26" size helps the dish to differentiate 121 from the FSS slots at 119 and 123. The actual power levels for 121 shouldn't be much different than you'd see at 61.5 or 148.

As far as dish pointing, I expect you'd just optimize for 110 and 119 as you would with a Dish500, and that would lock in 121 without much (if any) further adjustment. Of course, this assumes the 121 LNB uses circular polarization like DBS.
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