Pioneer 3510HD Cable Box -- DVI out? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 67 Old 07-13-2003, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Have any of you Time Warner Cable users tried connecting the Pioneer Voyager 3510HD STB to your TV via the DVI port? Did it work? Mine's giving me a weird error message, and my local TWC affiliate knows less about these boxes than I know about theoretical astrophysics.

TIA,
- Craig
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post #2 of 67 Old 07-13-2003, 09:05 AM
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Craig,
How do you talk TWC out of one of these boxes anyway??

Curt
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post #3 of 67 Old 07-13-2003, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I called back several times until I found someone who was willing to let me request this box be delivered. The first lady I talked to said they only had SA2000HD boxes (SA hasn't sold that box since 2001). The next lady said they only offer SA boxes at all (obviously not true). The next guy I talked to said he had no idea what a DVI port was (in fact none of the TWC reps knew this) and questioned why I needed it. Finally, the fourth person I talked to (over a week period) let me request that one be delivered, although she wasn't sure that TWC Cincy used these Pioneer boxes. Oh well, so much for educating your staff.
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post #4 of 67 Old 07-13-2003, 01:54 PM
 
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I've heard that the DVI port is not enabled on the Pioneer box, or its only in a test phase.
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post #5 of 67 Old 07-14-2003, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Then the $64,000 question becomes, how does one get it enabled?
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post #6 of 67 Old 07-14-2003, 08:53 AM
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Perhaps, the DVI port on the Pioneer 3510HD is active just as the Component/S-Video/Composite ports are. It should be.
But then again DVI is a Digital port and the others analog.
The only way to find out for certain is to get the correct DVI cable and have a DVI port in your TV (Plasma or other).

A TV with a non-HDCP capable DVI port should display the HD picture correctly as long as that particular program broadcat is not HDCP enabled.
Currently there are no HDCP enabled programs with TWC, as I know.
If the DVI port in your TV is HDCP capable then that's one less thing to worry about.

Currently, TWC does not supply a DVI cable, only a component cable and a standard audio cable, not digital.

For more info on DVI and HDCP:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...71#post1620871

and:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...46#post1838546

For more info on DVI cables:

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/D...or_cables.html
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post #7 of 67 Old 07-14-2003, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Mr. D. My TV is HD with a DVI port. The DVI port works fine, as I've tested that using a PC. The DVI port on the Pioneer STB, however, does not seem to play well in my case, and others have found themselves in similar situations.

What we do not know at this point is which of the following cases is true:

A) The DVI port is disabled on this STB (i.e., it's a STB issue), or

B) The DVI port is disabled on this STB in some, but not all, TWC regions (i.e., it's a STB-TWC interaction issue), or

C) The DVI port on the STB doesn't work with the Samsung line of DLP RPTVs (i.e., it's a STB-TV interaction issue), or

D) The DVI port on the STB doesn't work with the Samsung line of DLP RPTV's in some TWC regions (i.e., it's a STB-TV-TWC interaction issue)

I believe it's A, but so far have run up against a brick wall of ignorance when trying to divine answers from my local TWC customer service reps.
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post #8 of 67 Old 07-14-2003, 05:45 PM
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I received a 3510HD box on Saturday much to my surprise as I have been calling TWC-NYC weekly for months to find out when new boxes were going to be available to replace my SA3100HD. I have a Pioneer PDP-503CMX Plasma as my main display and had the SA3100HD hooked up. I recently purchased a Samsung LTM-225W 22" LCD TV with a NR of 1280 x 720. When I ordered the additional HD box, I asked if any new boxes were available and of course I got the standard answer, no, still using the 3100. When the guy showed up Saturday I was excited that it wasn't the SA box, but a new Pioneer Voyager with DVI. Before I even hooked it up, I tried to get a second box to replace the SA3100HD I already had, but no luck. I called TWC-NYC HD dept. and as usual they have no clue and don't understand how I got this new box. Needless to say, I gave up for now.

OK, getting to the DVI part. The Samsung has a DVI input, is not HDCP compliant, but will accept 720p. I hooked up the DVI input which turned off the Component Output which I believe is not the intention of non-hdcp signals. If no HDCP signal is present it should send the signal to both the Analog and Digital outputs, anyway... Before hooking up, I set the output of the 3510HD to output 720p so the samsung would receive NR. All I got was a message to hook up the DVI to an HDTV and follow the instructions... What instructions, there are none. I fiddled with it for a while and nothing. Interestinly enough the Samsung reported the signal as 640 x 480 not 1280 x 720 and no further options were available. I gave up and switched the 3510HD to my Pio Plasma and put the SA3100 with the Samsung until I get another box in a couple of weeks. Being able to use componet output for everything and enabling the box to pass whatever signal it is receiving is a huge step forward. I notice a lot of Video and Audio dropouts when watching HD with the SA3100HD. This has been greatly reduced with the 3510HD. I can't wait to get another one.

If the DVI is disabled, I hope it is turned on via a firmware upgrade in the near future. If it is not working because HDCP is turned on all the time; therefore, the component outputs are disabled even with a non-hdcp signal this needs to be addressed immediately. If I find anything else out I will post it.

PS - I found this in the official Kansas City Thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...31#post2426431

Phil C.
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post #9 of 67 Old 07-14-2003, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Phil,
Thanks for the detailed results -- much appreciated.

FWIW, several of us with HDTVs (720p native) that *do* have DVI+HDCP got the same error, so I do not believe it's an HDCP issue.

I think it's going to take a lot of calling on our parts to TWC to ferret out the truth, since otherwise we'll never fully know whether it's the box or some other combination of issues at play.
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post #10 of 67 Old 07-14-2003, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are the user reports I've gathered from various AVSF threads so far regarding the use of DVI out on a Pioneer Voyager 3510HD set-top box. If you have any results, either positive or negative, with this setup, please reply or PM me...thanks!


Member --- Display --- Cable Co. --- Result
============================================
Fonman99 --- Sony KP-57WV600 --- TWC-Kansas City --- Works fine
cmf --- Samsung HLN437W --- TWC-Cincinnati --- Error message *1
kchdtv --- Samsung HL?5065W --- TWC-Kansas City --- Error message *1
copen --- Pioneer 503CMX --- TWC-San Diego --- Error message
pciav --- Sam LTM-225W --- TWC-NYC --- Error message *2

Notes:
*1. Set equipped with DVI+HDCP
*2. BobbyCor reported on 7/14 that 3510HD boxes from TW-NYC have DVI enabled,
but that HDCP on the set is required
Error Message = a three-language black-&-white message indicating that the STB
should be hooked up to high-definition television.
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post #11 of 67 Old 07-14-2003, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmf
Phil,
Thanks for the detailed results -- much appreciated.

FWIW, several of us with HDTVs (720p native) that *do* have DVI+HDCP got the same error, so I do not believe it's an HDCP issue.

I think it's going to take a lot of calling on our parts to TWC to ferret out the truth, since otherwise we'll never fully know whether it's the box or some other combination of issues at play.
No doubt it will take a lot of calls... the only problem is finding somebody who knows something about anything. What bothers me is the user guide posted at the Los Angeles TWC from the link I posted above says specifically that the component outputs are disabled when you hook up the DVI output. This implies to me that they have HDCP enabled all the time whether or not a signal is being sent or not. This should be cause for concern as this should only be the case when an HDCP flag is present.

Poking around on various TWC sites shows how TWC operates independently. TWC KC has In Demand HD 1 & 2 as well as Discovery HD and UPN. Here in NYC it's CBS, NBC, Fox DTV, ABC, PBS, HBO, & SHO. We had WB for about two weeks and all of sudden it disappeared last week. Also, they finally announced the DVR here in NYC. It will be available in Sept., but still no word on a HD-DVR.

John Mason & Anthony Moody, if you are reading this any new info from TWC NYC lately? Anybody found any hidden settings for the 3510HD yet? Here in NY 996 still brings up a single page diagnostic that doesn't tell you too much. Holding Exit and Select on the SA3100HD then tuning to 996 gives 16 pages of diagnostics and info, but that combo doesn't work on the 3510. Again, anything new I find out from calling or playing I will post. Overall like I said above, the 3510 is a huge step forward.

Phil C.
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post #12 of 67 Old 07-15-2003, 08:30 AM
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Has anyone gotten a Pioneer Voyager 3510HD installed anywhere in Manhattan?
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post #13 of 67 Old 07-15-2003, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pciav
John Mason & Anthony Moody, if you are reading this any new info from TWC NYC lately? Anybody found any hidden settings for the 3510HD yet? Here in NY 996 still brings up a single page diagnostic that doesn't tell you too much. Holding Exit and Select on the SA3100HD then tuning to 996 gives 16 pages of diagnostics and info, but that combo doesn't work on the 3510. Again, anything new I find out from calling or playing I will post. Overall like I said above, the 3510 is a huge step forward.
Nice to see improved hardware emerging from TWC. Haven't heard anything new regarding additional H/DTV sources. Spent a while yesterday tinkering with my 3100HD's diagnostics, though. Here, at least for S. Manhattan's headend, entering 996 gives you one diagnostic page. (A CSR asked me to enter 996 once to get my 'MAC' address.) If I enter 1999 (after 'diag' appears with a SELECT/EXIT holddown), I get the full menu of diagnostic pages. I find the 'diagnosed' channel is the last one tuned. Switching the converter off, or just waiting a while, exits diagnostic mode.

But something's missing. Enter 701-714, the H/DTV channels, and diagnostics shows "out of range." If anyone knows how to sidestep this please post the technique. Last summer I recorded the tuning frequency of each H/DTV channel, but this inability to see them in diagnostics began when they added a series of new SD channels.

If you 'diagnose' 21, 25, and 31, last summer they were 'analog-switched' channels instead of one of eight or more channels MPEG-2 compressed and squeezed into 6-MHz-wide cable slots and delivered by 256 QAM.

Knowing the tuning frequency tells you how many MPEG-2 channels are in each 6-MHz slot. I gave up after listing data on about 25 channels because it was so tedious. But noticed the TUNING diagnostics page now has what looks like a new feature: You can use the LEFT/RIGHT buttons on your remote next to SELECT and enter channel numbers (0000 format) directly on the TUNING page, then press SELECT to tune that channel. If someone entered channel data on a spreadsheet you could sort on a frequency column and see the channel density per cable slot. Pages show whether the channel has AC-3 (Dolby 5.1), and the PCR Lock Status numbers are constantly changing--apparently MPEG-2 data. At one moment last year, SD HBO on channel 201 showed 3281210057 (10 digits) while about the same time HD HBO on 701 showed 889959705 (9 digits). Yes, doesn't make sense. Be interesting to see if this fluctuating data could be used for bit density versus image quality comparisons.

BTW, again, hope folks with cable video on demand (VOD), perhaps soon with HD VOD, will contact their cable companies and request free HDTV test patterns on HD VOD. It would be something not offered by DBS (HDNet's HD patterns are on periodically). But, since VOD now devotes small segments of hard-disk storage to free shorts, such as how they made feature movies, you'd think similar storage space could be used for HD test patterns with how-to-use instructions. Perhaps Time Warner Cable and others will even offer test patterns that inset rotating resolution wedges or stationary resolution-burst test patterns into moving video images. That would test MPEG-2 encoders/decoders at maximum stress instead of simple resolution patterns easily handled by encoders. -- John
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post #14 of 67 Old 07-15-2003, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Update on the Pioneer 3510HD STB: In the Cincinnati TWC region, the DVI port is disabled -- the firmware in the box does not currently enable the DVI to function. The tech I spoke to today called me back to tell me that, but he had no idea when, or if, it might be enabled. Oh, well...at least that mystery is solved (for me).

I hope that helps some of you others trying to get these boxes. The Pioneer is still a much better box than the SA 3100HD, but SA's later boxes might be on par with the Pioneer (not sure). HTH.
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post #15 of 67 Old 07-15-2003, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pciav
I received a 3510HD box on Saturday much to my surprise as I have been calling TWC-NYC weekly for months to find out when new boxes were going to be available to replace my SA3100HD. <snip> I called TWC-NYC HD dept. and as usual they have no clue and don't understand how I got this new box. Needless to say, I gave up for now.

</snip>[/url]
Phil,

What borough are you living in New York City? As far as I know, no one in Manhttan has received the new Pioneer 3510 from TWC. Let us know, thanks!

S.Anderson
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post #16 of 67 Old 07-15-2003, 06:15 PM
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Below is my posting from this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=7
____________________________________________________________
Pioneer 3510HD in Manhattan???
BobyCor above states that according to his TWC source:

1. Pioneer's box is being deployed in Manhattan with DVI enabled, but you need DVI w/HDCP on your TV / Display.

Now, I have spoken to two TWC supervisors in Customer Service and Tech Support and, after they checked, I was told that the 3510HD is not available anywhere in Manhattan and the only way to get it is to move to Queens or Brooklyn.
Also, two visiting TWC technicians in Manhattan have stated that they have never seen or heard of the 3510HD or of any HD box with a DVI port.

From what I can see it is impossible to get this box in Manhattan now or in the foreseeable future. It is of course possible that the TWC people have no idea about what is going on or they have been told by a higher authority to mislead (lie to?) the customers.

Has anyone gotten a 3510HD installed anywhere in Manhattan?

Or perhaps can BobyCor's source enlighten us on how to get the 3510HD here in NYC?
____________________________________________________________

After that posting above I spoke to a more knowledgeable tech at TWC who was pretty versed with the 3510HD. He knew about the limitations and shortcomings of the SA3100HD AND he also knew that the Pioneer box was just introduced in the NYC area during the past week or so.
He said it will take at least a month, possibly longer, before TWC has adequate supplies for more widespread use.

By the way, Phil, above, is located in Queens, NY as it is indicated in his posting below his name.
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post #17 of 67 Old 07-15-2003, 06:31 PM
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Rieper,

Mr. D is right on the money, Queens it is... When I return from vacation next week I am going to attempt to obtain another 3510... Hopefully it will be available.

Phil C.
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post #18 of 67 Old 07-17-2003, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, it seems that some in the Kansas City region of TWC are getting Pioneer 3510HD boxes with DVI enabled. If someone there in NYC can post his results as well, that would be helpful. Thanks.
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post #19 of 67 Old 07-30-2003, 12:14 PM
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The 3510 wreaks havoc with my Pio49TXi rcvr.
When changing channels the sound (thru the digital connection) causes the rcvr to crackle & pop & lose the sound signal.
Then I must switch inputs from digital to analog & back to digital to hear audio again. The analog sound works fine.
The crackles are serious speaker-damaging.
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post #20 of 67 Old 07-30-2003, 01:05 PM
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No sound issues to report with the 3510 and my Yamaha RX-Z1 Receiver. So far, the performance of the 3510 has been outstanding compared to my old SA3100HD which is now serving duty in the bedroom until I get another 3510. Finally getting the SA8000 DVR here in NY. No HD version yet, but its nice to finally be able to replace my Dish PVR which is the only thing I miss since switching back to cable last fall.

Phil

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post #21 of 67 Old 07-31-2003, 10:49 AM
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Got the 3510HD installed by TWC- Chatsworth in the San Fernando Valley. Hooked up with both S-video and DVI into the Fujitsu 50" plasma. Had the cable company back out to check signal levels and they replaced some couplers but I'm getting a better picture via s-video than DVI. They suggested I use their DVI cables which they are offering for free rather than the ones installed by my home theater installer. Not so easy as the cables were snaked through some walls.

Does DVI cable length make a difference?. The ones installed are very long.

I seem to recall when I first got the box there was a menu item that asked what kind of signals my display could handle and I checked most of them. I wanted to go back and remove some to see if I got a better picture but can't seem to find it anymore. Any help out their?
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post #22 of 67 Old 07-31-2003, 10:59 AM
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If you are talking about SD channels (which you must be), it is probably best to go with s-video. I have not used the 3510HD, but it is well known with the SA3100HD that you have to use s-vid for SD and component for HD. The built in scaler in these boxes is not good at all.
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post #23 of 67 Old 07-31-2003, 12:02 PM
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How long are the cables? Up to 15 feet or so, more expensive cables doesn't make any difference (these are digital...). If you're running to a projector, you need something special (I know you're not, just saying...).

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post #24 of 67 Old 07-31-2003, 04:46 PM
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My cables are 6 meters long. Thanks for the confirmation that s-video seems to be best for non HD signals.

By the way TWC LA has a group of non listed channels in the 1500 series that cover the local channels such as channel 5 as 1505; channel 9 as 1509 etc broadcast in digital format (but not the HD ones which are in the 1100 series). Not shown in their cable listings and you can't scroll to them with their remote control but if you punch them in you get them. Interestingly you can select them via the favorite channels setup via the 3510 menu.
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post #25 of 67 Old 08-01-2003, 03:59 AM
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Does anyone have the Pioneer 3510HD hooked up to the new Panasonic TH-42paou (EDTV)? I am confused. A thread in the Plasma board mentioned the picture quality for HD material was better via DVI with Panasonic. (they were using the Sony STB but would that matter for DVI?)I was planning to use DVI and set the Pioneer box to output 480p since the plasma does not support 720p. Which route should I go to get the best possible picture for both SD and HD material considering the plasma does not output 720p? Thanks for your help!
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post #26 of 67 Old 08-01-2003, 07:43 PM
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Hey sspector I have TWC Chatsworth HD and can not type in the 1500 stations. I have the same exact box you do but when I type in 1505 for instance it just gives me the ??? and does nothing. Did you do something special to get the channel 5 and 9 DTV channels?
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post #27 of 67 Old 08-05-2003, 02:50 PM
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I am getting them to replace my SA 3100HD with a pioneer 3510HD this thursday:

1) Does the 3510 feature Coax Digital Sound out?
2) Does the 3510 output normal resolution, non HD channels in 480i or 480p mode through its component outputs.
3) Does the 3510 output 720p stations in 720p?
4) Does the 3510 just output everything in the same resolution out of its Component video outs, like the SA 3100HD did?

I'm hoping I don't have to use the S-Video output on the new 3510, currently I switch between Component for HDTV, and S-Video for normal resolution channels, on my 3100HD.
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post #28 of 67 Old 08-05-2003, 03:24 PM
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uzun,

1) yes coax
2) you can select 480i, 480p, 720p & 1080i in the setting menu so that the box will pass whatever signal it receives
3) yes, see no. 2. it will pass whatever it receives
4) it can if that is what you choose, see 2 & 3

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post #29 of 67 Old 08-05-2003, 07:21 PM
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One more question since the cable guy is coming out Thursday to replace my 3100HD with a 3510HD.
How do I get into the configuration menu that lets me tell the Pioneer 3510HD that my TV set can handle 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i? I have had some bad experiences with cable techs where they don't know the equipment that well, and it's possible he will tell me there is no such setup menu.
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post #30 of 67 Old 08-05-2003, 07:56 PM
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All the DVI/no-DVI is interesting, as it must depend totally on cableco: See this, about halfway down:
http://www.gearbits.com/archives/cat_home_av.html

-Lee (See my profile for equipment.)
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