Fort McCoy FL. Antenna Recommendations - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 47 Old 04-25-2017, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Fort McCoy FL. Antenna Recommendations

Hi All,

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a407f5894cd1

Just moved to Fort McCoy, FL. My house sits in a heavily wooded 22 acres. The house already had a very old version of the Channel Master CM 3020. It had old RG59 cable.
I am closest to Gainesville Florida so that is where I am aiming my antenna. Fox 51.1, NBC 2.1, ABC 20.1, CBS 28.1 and PBS 5.1
I could pull in Fox easily with a 30 DB Amplifier and could barely get ABC. I then upgraded the cable to RG11.
It is a 65 foot run into the house. After the upgrade I was able to get Fox, ABC and could barely get NBC with the 30 DB Amplifier.
The antenna is mounted 25' high, but surrounded by trees. No matter how much I try to get CBS, it does not even find it for a second.
It seemed like this big antenna was not doing much. I had a Winegard HD7694P from my old house. It worked great in South Florida.
I took down the old CM 3020 and put up My Winegard HD7694P. With no Amplifier I could get Fox and ABC was in and out.
I put a Winegard LNA-200 Boost XT Digital HDTV Preamplifier right below the antenna.
With That I get Fox, ABC , PBS and NBC. Still no CBS...
This little antenna is working better than the Big CM 3020.
The CM3020 is covered in heavy oxidation and every rivet is rusty, so it seems this antenna is done.

What can I do to get CBS? It is not much further away than ABC and in the same direction.
I have been looking at a New Channel Master CM3020 ( 100 Mile) and the Winegard HD8200U Platinum( 65 Mile ).

I am open to any and all suggestions on the type of Antenna I should be using..

I also joined TV Fool, been waiting days for someone to activate my account so I can post.

Thanks for any Help..
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post #2 of 47 Old 04-25-2017, 04:33 PM
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You probably just need to move your antenna. It's usually a mistake to assume that all the signals will be uniform when you're behind a forest.

Those mileage numbers are USELESS so ignore them.
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post #3 of 47 Old 04-25-2017, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the best way to figure out the optimum location for the antenna? I am assuming you mean move the pole to a different location... I have rotated the antenna in fine increments to see all the highest signals for the channels I could get, but never found CBS.

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post #4 of 47 Old 04-25-2017, 07:42 PM
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Your network signals are line of sight and at least one is very strong. The 30 dB preamp is likely being overloaded and causing your weaker signals to be lost. I would start with good coax and no preamp and if necessary add a low gain distribution amp.
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post #5 of 47 Old 04-25-2017, 07:42 PM
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Your CBS is 1/2 the strength signal as your ABC. That, and all your tree cover is hurting you. You need a more powerful antenna, luckily, almost all the stations you need are UHF, so you really only need a UHF antenna.

Your best bet is this antenna: https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Signal...eywords=hdb91x This is the cheapest I've ever seen it. I have TWO of them up and running right now, and they work very well. They are a clone of the famous 91xg, and I've owned both, and there's little difference except the price.

p.s. I waited 3 MONTHS before they activated my account at Tvfool years ago..
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post #6 of 47 Old 04-26-2017, 04:28 AM
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Your network signals are line of sight and at least one is very strong. The 30 dB preamp is likely being overloaded and causing your weaker signals to be lost. I would start with good coax and no preamp and if necessary add a low gain distribution amp.
John
He already reported that he'd tested without the 30 dB amp and also that he had added n LNA200 preamp. Also, the coax already has been updated.

Quote:
Your CBS is 1/2 the strength signal as your ABC.
Um, no. That is not how math in decibels works. When translated into linear terms, it's closer to 1/100th of the power.

The selection of a 91XG-style antenna with its ~20° beamwidth may not accommodate the wide swath (about ~80°) from which his locals stations originate without resorting to a rotor. Might eventually be needed, though, it's almost impossible to guess what will happen when heavy trees are involved.

Quote:
I am assuming you mean move the pole to a different location...
Yes. Don't drill any new holes yet.

Quote:
What is the best way to figure out the optimum location for the antenna?
Back in the old days, professional installers "walked the roof" with a test antenna and a signal meter, they didn't just plant a mount (or take over an existing one) in a convenient spot and assume it would work.
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post #7 of 47 Old 04-26-2017, 04:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
He already reported that he'd tested without the 30 dB amp and also that he had added n LNA200 preamp. Also, the coax already has been updated.

Um, no. That is not how math in decibels works. When translated into linear terms, it's closer to 1/100th of the power.

The selection of a 91XG-style antenna with its ~20° beamwidth may not accommodate the wide swath (about ~80°) from which his locals stations originate without resorting to a rotor. Might eventually be needed, though, it's almost impossible to guess what will happen when heavy trees are involved.

Yes. Don't drill any new holes yet.

Back in the old days, professional installers "walked the roof" with a test antenna and a signal meter, they didn't just plant a mount (or take over an existing one) in a convenient spot and assume it would work.

Ok, Looks like Signal meters are pretty pricey for a decent one. To be a little more cost effective... I am building one from this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Along with this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 .
I also ordered the 91XG-style antenna. I will walk the roof with that antenna and signal meter.

Once I have the best signal location... I would like to put the largest antenna I can for the best possible signal at all times. I would rather go overkill on the antenna. Any recommendations on the best antenna to use? Thanks to you all for the help. I will report back this weekend with my results of the roof walk.. Oh and I do have a rotor if needed..... But I would like to try my best to get it done with no rotor for DVR and Multiple viewers in different rooms.

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post #8 of 47 Old 04-26-2017, 06:13 AM
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I would like to put the largest antenna I can for the best possible signal at all times.
It usually doesn't work that way. As noted, you have a VERY wide arc from which your desired signals originate. The larger the antenna, the higher the gain, the narrower the defined pickup path.

Think of how a Maglite works - You can throw a soft, very wide beam or you can crank it down to a tight beam that illuminates a small spot that is much further away with very little light distributed further from the main beam. A receiving antenna works in a fashion that is a reciprocal of that idea.

Since you already jumped the gun and ordered the UHF Yagi, you might as well try it when it comes in. A number of your local stations are forecast to be very strong (excluding the tree factor which cannot be calculated) but they may be sufficiently strong to come in outside the antenna's recommended beamwidth. You'll just have to see if it works or if you need a rotor or a different antenna.
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post #9 of 47 Old 04-26-2017, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Venomnusss View Post
Ok, Looks like Signal meters are pretty pricey for a decent one. To be a little more cost effective... I am building one from this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Along with this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 .
I also ordered the 91XG-style antenna. I will walk the roof with that antenna and signal meter.

Once I have the best signal location... I would like to put the largest antenna I can for the best possible signal at all times. I would rather go overkill on the antenna. Any recommendations on the best antenna to use? Thanks to you all for the help. I will report back this weekend with my results of the roof walk.. Oh and I do have a rotor if needed..... But I would like to try my best to get it done with no rotor for DVR and Multiple viewers in different rooms.
Ok, so I meant 1/2 the NM than ABC, sorry I typed fast. Anyway, I have two HDB91x's up at 25 ft behind trees with a Jan-Jenca Jointenna and a Kitztech KT-200 COAX preamp at the combined output. One of them (the "all-channel EXCEPT one input) is receiving good signal from stations in my arc 114 Degrees to 161 degrees magnetic. WDCQ to WSMH. It is aimed at about 150 degrees mag. (WSMH is only 30kW's also, so it's aimed that far South to bring this up to a better level). The other HDB91x is pointed at WBSF, which is also only 30kw's, but I have to aim right alongside a neighbors pine tree I can't get around. Here is my Tvfool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a43980350957

I also have an Antenna Craft Y10-7-13 aimed for WJRT, which is RF12, it is not amped, and is simply into one side of a UVSJ. I have a very challenging situation with trees, and I now get all my signals solid behind trees using this setup.

I stand by my recommendation of the HDB91x, and it has at least a 60 degree usable beamwidth, not "20 degrees". http://manuals.solidsignal.com/hdb91x-fieldpattern.pdf

Everybodies situation is different, and he'll just have to do some experimentation to see what works best for him.

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post #10 of 47 Old 04-26-2017, 07:14 AM
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and it has at least a 60 degree usable beamwidth, not "20 degrees".
You misunderstand the definition of beamwidth as it applies to the description of antenna patterns. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beamwidth The beamwidth of the long Yagi is going to be very narrow and WILL VARY WITH FREQUENCY. Since the 91XG is very similar, it's specs are going to be very close to the SS version. At the peak operating frequency of the antenna, its BW approaches 20° with it widening to the low 40s at ch 14. Antennas Direct's 91XG data sheet only goes up to 698 MHz with the BW figures varying from 42°(470 MHz) to 24° (698 MHz) but the antenna is known to have been designed and tuned for up to channel 69. Forum member holl_and evaluated the 91XG and has posted this plot from which the "20" number unfortunately stuck in my mind. Of course, its actual usable frequency span is much lower and the BW is proportionally wider:



The rest of his evaluation is here: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg

FWIW, I wouldn't trust any of the data that SS supplies for their antennas. There are some gross errors in their data for several models that has never been corrected and that casts doubt in my mind on the validity of their process, results, and conclusions. Check out their "data" for their 8-bay, for example. The example you provided fails to indicate the test frequency(ies) which makes it fairly vague.

Quote:
and I now get all my signals solid behind trees using this setup.
And you're fortunate so far. Trees grow every years so what works today may change in the future. Here's an interesting experience from a professional installer in the UK that you may find entertaining and instructive: www.wrightsaerials.tv/reference/resources/trees-and-uhf-reception.pdf

Quote:
Everybody's situation is different, and he'll just have to do some experimentation to see what works best for him.
Absolutely!!! ;Thumbs up!:

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post #11 of 47 Old 04-26-2017, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
It usually doesn't work that way. As noted, you have a VERY wide arc from which your desired signals originate. The larger the antenna, the higher the gain, the narrower the defined pickup path.

Think of how a Maglite works - You can throw a soft, very wide beam or you can crank it down to a tight beam that illuminates a small spot that is much further away with very little light distributed further from the main beam. A receiving antenna works in a fashion that is a reciprocal of that idea.

Since you already jumped the gun and ordered the UHF Yagi, you might as well try it when it comes in. A number of your local stations are forecast to be very strong (excluding the tree factor which cannot be calculated) but they may be sufficiently strong to come in outside the antenna's recommended beamwidth. You'll just have to see if it works or if you need a rotor or a different antenna.

Got it, Thanks.

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post #12 of 47 Old 04-26-2017, 01:54 PM
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Got it, Thanks.
My advice is to focus your aim on the CBS station FIRST at 309 degrees magnetic as it's your weakest. See if you can get that in fairly solid. If so, then Fox, NBC, ABC, and PBS may also come in strong enough as they have more power (potentially per Tvfool, except your tree situation might throw a lot of that out). If not, try turning the antenna a tiny little bit at a time one way or the other, to see if you can find a good compromise that works well with the single antenna.

Do this all first without a preamp installed, and get signal and quality as high as you can. Trying to aim with a preamp in the mix from the start, usually makes it harder to really tell what's happening. Once you think you might have a good situation, hook up the preamp and see what happens.

IF you can get all the major broadcasters fairly solid be happy, and anything else that also comes in should be considered gravy.

Good luck.

p.s. Nothing stops you from installing multiple antennas, IF that should work best for you. As I said above, I have a 3 antenna ( two UHF, and 1 VHF) situation I worked out, and it works perfectly for me.

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post #13 of 47 Old 04-28-2017, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Here we go... Made some progress today.

Just want to mention that I am using Silicon Dust HD Homerun tuners for my TV viewing and DVR. I Received the 91XG-style antenna and put it together..Long Antenna. Instead of walking the roof with it I went with the Winegard HD7694P. I took it off the mast and walked the roof with it and the Signal meter, no amplification... Turns out the mast is in the optimum location. There is one other area that gets the same signal strength, but nothing better than where the mast is. The signal meter lets me pick a specific channel to look for. WOGX Fox got a decent signal, WESH NBC a very low signal and WCJB ABC a very low signal. WGFL CBS , I could not find any signal at all. Those were all the Gainesville area stations. Then just for fun I aimed toward the Orlando stations and tried to pick up WKMG CBS.... I got a very low signal. That station is roughly 80 miles away. I tried other Orlando stations but got no signal. I hooked up the rotor and mounted the Winegard HD7694P. I went inside and and started up the the HD Homerun Config GUI. I opened a window for each of the four networks I want. The signals were way to low to be used. Went back up on the roof and connected theWinegard LNA-200 Boost XT Digital HDTV Pre-amplifier. Now the signals were usable. I played with the rotor for a while and I am able to get Gainesville stations WOGX Fox, WESH NBC and WCJB ABC all locked in to the point where they stay stable .. No Artifacts. Below is a screen shot of the signal quality of those three stations. As you will see in the photo WGFL CBS has a weak signal strength showing 38%. By playing with the rotor the highest I ever got it was 42%, but could never achieve any Signal Quality or Symbol Quality.

.


Next, I tried aiming the Winegard HD7694P in just about the complete opposite direction towards WKMG CBS Orlando.. I was able to get a signal strong enough to watch on TV , but it would go in and out with artifacts and the sound would go off and on.You might get 30 seconds to a minute of beautiful picture and sound The picture below shows the signal strength. It did go a little higher than what it shows in the picture.

.

I then replaced the Winegard HD7694P with the 91XG-style antenna and did everything again. In the end the small Winegard HD7694P did a better job. It held the signals more stable and they were about 10-15% higher overall.

So, for now I put the Winegard HD7694P back on the mast.

Here is the TV Fool Data:



I am hoping to use two antennas and a combiner. I need to get an antenna that can pull in the WKMG CBS Orlando station.

What is my next step?.... And Thanks for all the help.

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post #14 of 47 Old 04-28-2017, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomnusss View Post

I am hoping to use two antennas and a combiner. I need to get an antenna that can pull in the WKMG CBS Orlando station.

What is my next step?.... And Thanks for all the help.
Your next easiest step is to try raising the mast HIGHER. Even 5 feet can make a big difference with UHF, but if you go up another 15 feet, it might be just what you need.
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post #15 of 47 Old 04-28-2017, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Your next easiest step is to try raising the mast HIGHER. Even 5 feet can make a big difference with UHF, but if you go up another 15 feet, it might be just what you need.
I can go up another 6-7 feet.. But the trees are over me like an umbrella.....lol.. I will try it in the AM.. Thanks

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post #16 of 47 Old 04-28-2017, 05:59 PM
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I can go up another 6-7 feet.. But the trees are over me like an umbrella.....lol.. I will try it in the AM.. Thanks
Is there any place at all, where you can see a "hole" or a "V" through the tree canopy? If so, try to place the antenna so you can aim through there, and still hit the towers. Maybe even tilt the antenna UP a few degrees. Or, can you see UNDER the tree canopy? Yes, sometimes even lowering the antenna can make a difference...
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post #17 of 47 Old 04-29-2017, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Moved the antenna up and down today. No real openings for the antenna to see through. Moving up did not help at all. Went up in 1 foot increments for a total of 8 feet. Lost signal % every foot higher I went. From original height I went down in one foot increments. going down two feet gave me about a 4-5% increase on WKMG CBS Orlando. That appeared to be the sweet spot for height. Went back inside and checked the PC. Signal was better than before on WKMG CBS Orlando. I then added an indoor AntennaCraft 30 dB Adjustable Amplifier. Turning the gain up slightly did improve the WKMG CBS Orlando signal without overpowering my other stations. Signal Strength, Signal Quality and Symbol Quality all improved.. Symbol Quality still disappears and reappears frequently.




When on the roof the Portable Signal Meter I built works great. The audio signal beeping comes in handy when adjusting the antenna.








Looks like I am going to need a better antenna to pull in that CBS Orlando Station... I am surprised how good the small Winegard is working...
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post #18 of 47 Old 04-29-2017, 02:26 PM
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Investigate antenna STACKING. Read this: http://www.wtfda.org/mem/stackingantennas.pdf

Basically, you take TWO HDB91x's (or two matching antenna's) and mount them (vertically is easiest) on the same mast, at least 36" - 42" apart, and pointed and matched together so they are phased. You then use the same length coax's from each one, into a GOOD high quality splitter used backwards. Just like they are "Y'ed" together. Then the output of the splitter goes to your preamp, and then to your tv set, etc.

If done right, it should get you at least 2.5dB additional signal.

P.S. Can you explain more about your homemade signal meter? I thought those were only for the Sensar antenna systems, and didn't work for others?

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post #19 of 47 Old 04-29-2017, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
Investigate antenna STACKING. Read this: http://www.wtfda.org/mem/stackingantennas.pdf

Basically, you take TWO HDB91x's (or two matching antenna's) and mount them (vertically is easiest) on the same mast, at least 36" - 42" apart, and pointed and matched together so they are phased. You then use the same length coax's from each one, into a GOOD high quality splitter used backwards. Just like they are "Y'ed" together. Then the output of the splitter goes to your preamp, and then to your tv set, etc.

If done right, it should get you at least 2.5dB additional signal.

P.S. Can you explain more about your homemade signal meter? I thought those were only for the Sensar antenna systems, and didn't work for others?
This is the link on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The first review is from an Aerospace Engineer that explains how to use it as a signal meter. I did it the same way with a little nicer box. I also built the battery pack to Velcro to the back. And I am also using the DC blocker.

Since the HDB91X did not work well for me I am trying to figure which antenna may work better than my existing Winegard HD7694P.

I have been looking at these four, I don't know if the Bow Tie Models are worth trying....

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C4XVOOC...6E1AEP1G&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CX6UJ5K...I1ML3A8LPRPYNP

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DFS4BI...RY9JFX6D&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BSGCSA...H14IV0GZ&psc=1

I anyone wants to chime in on these antenna choices feel free...

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post #20 of 47 Old 04-29-2017, 04:06 PM
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Thanks for the photos of your new DIY signal meter. Nice job!

I have a particular interest in signal measurements and own several Sadelco signal level meters,



but there aren't many meters at a reasonable price. In the past, I suggested using converter boxes with dual signal bars that measure signal strength and signal quality (inverse of uncorrected errors---similar to the HDHR symbol quality) like the Apex DT502.



I also like to use the Signal Diagnostics Screen of my Sony KDL22L5000:

Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and uncorrected errors:



Good Signal



and of my KDL32R400A. Notes and photo of GE antenna added to screen shot.



With your DIY meter and your HDHR signal meter, you have everything you need to track reception improvements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomnusss View Post
This is the link on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BSGCSA/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2Z12 AIGMR6R2K&coliid=I1K4ZEH14IV0GZ&psc=1
The first review is from an Aerospace Engineer that explains how to use it as a signal meter. I did it the same way with a little nicer box. I also built the battery pack to Velcro to the back. And I am also using the DC blocker.
That link seems to be for the CM3020 antenna. Is this the correct link for the signal meter?

https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-RFL-.../dp/B004NFTOLY
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If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #21 of 47 Old 04-29-2017, 04:12 PM
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Here's the antenna that you NEED, except they stopped making them quite a while ago. Though, it is possible to track down NOS and completely rebuilt ones. They tend to go for $500-$1,000. I had a chance to get one 2 years ago for $300, but I would have had to climb an 85' tower, and bring it down. I passed, as the days I could do that are behind me.

IF you can find one locally that somebody actually still has up, and can get it for $100 or less, it is possible to tear them down and clean them up and if this doesn't work for you, nothing will.

http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm



You could also contact these guys, and ask if they will sell you a "Stacked Super-G-1483 UHF antenna collinear package" That's almost as good as the 4251 parabolic. http://kassatellite.net/

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post #22 of 47 Old 04-29-2017, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thanks for the photos of your new DIY signal meter. Nice job!

I have a particular interest in signal measurements and own several Sadelco signal level meters,



but there aren't many meters at a reasonable price. In the past, I suggested using converter boxes with dual signal bars that measure signal strength and signal quality (inverse of uncorrected errors---similar to the HDHR symbol quality) like the Apex DT502.



I also like to use the Signal Diagnostics Screen of my Sony KDL22L5000:

Bad signal with picture freeze, SNR below 15 dB, and uncorrected errors:



Good Signal



and of my KDL32R400A. Notes and photo of GE antenna added to screen shot.



With your DIY meter and your HDHR signal meter, you have everything you need to track reception improvements.

That link seems to be for the CM3020 antenna. Is this the correct link for the signal meter?

https://www.amazon.com/Winegard-RFL-.../dp/B004NFTOLY

Link fixed....

The other day I started off using converter boxes as signal meters.. But, it seemed the tuners in those boxes are on the weak side... The signal meter I built is much more sensitive and the audio signal beeps are very useful...
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post #23 of 47 Old 04-29-2017, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
Here's the antenna that you NEED, except they stopped making them quite a while ago. Though, it is possible to track down NOS and completely rebuilt ones. They tend to go for $500-$1,000. I had a chance to get one 2 years ago for $300, but I would have had to climb an 85' tower, and bring it down. I passed, as the days I could do that are behind me.

IF you can find one locally that somebody actually still has up, and can get it for $100 or less, it is possible to tear them down and clean them up and if this doesn't work for you, nothing will.

http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm



You could also contact these guys, and ask if they will sell you a "Stacked Super-G-1483 UHF antenna collinear package" That's almost as good as the 4251 parabolic. http://kassatellite.net/
Been doing a lot of reading.... Stacked Super G-1483 Apparently they are having trouble getting the combiner/cable set that makes it work so well. They have tried other set ups but they do not work well.

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post #24 of 47 Old 04-29-2017, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomnusss View Post
Since the HDB91X did not work well for me I am trying to figure which antenna may work better than my existing Winegard HD7694P.

I have been looking at these four, I don't know if the Bow Tie Models are worth trying....

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C4XVOOC...6E1AEP1G&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CX6UJ5K...I1ML3A8LPRPYNP

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DFS4BI...RY9JFX6D&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BSGCSA...H14IV0GZ&psc=1

I anyone wants to chime in on these antenna choices feel free...
Of the four antennas listed above, the DB8E is the current gain champ for channel 28 with both of its panels aimed in the same direction, since it was rescaled for the 14-51 UHF band, but there is no magic antenna that will see through trees.





http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
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post #25 of 47 Old 04-30-2017, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomnusss View Post
Been doing a lot of reading.... Stacked Super G-1483 Apparently they are having trouble getting the combiner/cable set that makes it work so well. They have tried other set ups but they do not work well.
Odd looking thing, wished i could give one a try.

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post #26 of 47 Old 04-30-2017, 07:10 AM
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The panel type antennas, like the DB8E, have a larger capture area than a yagi design. An antenna with a smaller capture area often works better with a non-uniform wavefront that produces hot and cold spots.







If the 91XG were rescaled for the new repack UHF band it would be a winner for channel 28. But, that isn't going to happen; you would need a custom built yagi. If you can't get any antenna to work well for WGFL CBS real channel 28, virtual channel 28.1, the only alternative left is to use a tower to get your antenna above the trees.
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post #27 of 47 Old 04-30-2017, 02:04 PM
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In your TVFool Report you have potentially usable Stations in THREE Directions [re. True North]:

245-250-deg:
WESH (NBC, NM=44.0 dB) on Ch24,
W42DJ (CBS, NM=22.9 dB) on Ch42.
plus 282-deg: [32-37-deg away]
WOGX (FOX, NM=57.8 dB) on Ch31, which is strong enough it's likely to come in irrespective of Antenna Direction.

303-319-deg:
WCJB (ABC, NM=41.7 dB) on Ch16,
WUFT (PBS, NM=40.9 dB) on Ch36,
WGFL (CBS, NM=22.9 dB) on Ch28, [Repeater for WKMG on Ch26]
WRUF (UoFl, NM=15.9 dB) on Ch5 [Weak, Lo-VHF],
WNFT (????), NM=15.5 dB) on Ch15 [Weak, May or may NOT be On-The-Air]
WYME (MeTV, NM=10.5 dB) on Ch45 [Weak]

123-132-deg:
WVEN (UNIvision Spanish, NM=23.7 dB) on Ch49
WKMG (CBS, NM=12.5 dB) on Ch26, [Weak, DUPLICATE CBS on Stronger WGFL on Ch28]
WTGL (Religious), NM=11.2 dB) on Ch46, [Weak]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTGL
If you WANT to receive this Third Group, either a ROTATOR....or a SEPARATE ANTENNA for THAT Direction plus an RF Combiner would be needed....which unfortunately will INCREASE the Multipath and Noise Levels....with MAY or may NOT prevent reception of the some of the above Weak Stations.

But, as discussed earlier, Beamwidth (at -3 dB points) for 91XG is only about 30-deg [40-deg at 470 MHz), which means if you aimed at the Mid-Point Direction, Gain would be slightly NEGATIVE towards each Tower Group:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg

1) IF you aimed 91XG towards 303-deg in order to Maximize Reception for CBS on Ch28 [incl. ABC, PBS, et.al], it is POSSIBLE that Very Strong FOX on Ch31 and Strong NBC on Ch24 MIGHT have also come in on the Sidelobes. But this apparently was NOT your experience.

2) Since first Two Groups are up to 74-deg Difference in Pointing Angle, the Ultra-Wide Angle A-D C2 should be considered since it has Beamwidth of an Outstanding 70-deg...although it only provides Max UHF Gain = 9.6-10.1 dBi:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...taperedloopc2v
Across entire Frequency Range, at +/- 35-deg, Gain is about 6.6 dBi....which MAY or MAY NOT be sufficient to receive the Weaker Stations, but still worth a try.

[PS: I also looked at CM4221HD 4-Bay Bowtie....it provided about the SAME Gain at +/- 35-deg, except it was WORSE on the higher Channels.]

3) A-D DB-8e 8-Bay Bowtie has the ability to aim each 4-Bay in a different direction. If we look at A-D's Data Sheet (pg4 and 5 for 30-deg and 45-deg Off-Axis Pointing, bearing in mind that 0.5 to 1.5+ dB Loss in RF Coupler is NOT included), Gain at +/- 35-deg is a few dB MORE than AD-C2. Hence it would be one of the BETTER Commercial Solutions. And you could do the SAME thing with a PAIR of Inexpensive Solid Signal HDB-4x 4-Bay Bowties and an RF Combiner/Splitter:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...s/DB8E-TDS.pdf

To improve the Two (or Three) Antenna System, SINGLE CHANNEL INJECTOR FILTERS (from Jan Janacek or Tin-Lee) for Ch24 and/or Ch31 [and perhaps Ch46-49 Custom Filter for Third Group] can be used to minimize Multipath and Noise Injection from one Antenna into the other Antenna's Channels.
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post #28 of 47 Old 04-30-2017, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
In your TVFool Report you have potentially usable Stations in THREE Directions [re. True North]:

245-250-deg:
WESH (NBC, NM=44.0 dB) on Ch24,
W42DJ (CBS, NM=22.9 dB) on Ch42.
plus 282-deg: [32-37-deg away]
WOGX (FOX, NM=57.8 dB) on Ch31, which is strong enough it's likely to come in irrespective of Antenna Direction.

303-319-deg:
WCJB (ABC, NM=41.7 dB) on Ch16,
WUFT (PBS, NM=40.9 dB) on Ch36,
WGFL (CBS, NM=22.9 dB) on Ch28, [Repeater for WKMG on Ch26]
WRUF (UoFl, NM=15.9 dB) on Ch5 [Weak, Lo-VHF],
WNFT (????), NM=15.5 dB) on Ch15 [Weak, May or may NOT be On-The-Air]
WYME (MeTV, NM=10.5 dB) on Ch45 [Weak]

123-132-deg:
WVEN (UNIvision Spanish, NM=23.7 dB) on Ch49
WKMG (CBS, NM=12.5 dB) on Ch26, [Weak, DUPLICATE CBS on Stronger WGFL on Ch28]
WTGL (Religious), NM=11.2 dB) on Ch46, [Weak]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTGL
If you WANT to receive this Third Group, either a ROTATOR....or a SEPARATE ANTENNA for THAT Direction plus an RF Combiner would be needed....which unfortunately will INCREASE the Multipath and Noise Levels....with MAY or may NOT prevent reception of the some of the above Weak Stations.

But, as discussed earlier, Beamwidth (at -3 dB points) for 91XG is only about 30-deg [40-deg at 470 MHz), which means if you aimed at the Mid-Point Direction, Gain would be slightly NEGATIVE towards each Tower Group:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/yagis/91xg

1) IF you aimed 91XG towards 303-deg in order to Maximize Reception for CBS on Ch28 [incl. ABC, PBS, et.al], it is POSSIBLE that Very Strong FOX on Ch31 and Strong NBC on Ch24 MIGHT have also come in on the Sidelobes. But this apparently was NOT your experience.

2) Since first Two Groups are up to 74-deg Difference in Pointing Angle, the Ultra-Wide Angle A-D C2 should be considered since it has Beamwidth of an Outstanding 70-deg...although it only provides Max UHF Gain = 9.6-10.1 dBi:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...taperedloopc2v
Across entire Frequency Range, at +/- 35-deg, Gain is about 6.6 dBi....which MAY or MAY NOT be sufficient to receive the Weaker Stations, but still worth a try.

[PS: I also looked at CM4221HD 4-Bay Bowtie....it provided about the SAME Gain at +/- 35-deg, except it was WORSE on the higher Channels.]

3) A-D DB-8e 8-Bay Bowtie has the ability to aim each 4-Bay in a different direction. If we look at A-D's Data Sheet (pg4 and 5 for 30-deg and 45-deg Off-Axis Pointing, bearing in mind that 0.5 to 1.5+ dB Loss in RF Coupler is NOT included), Gain at +/- 35-deg is a few dB MORE than AD-C2. Hence it would be one of the BETTER Commercial Solutions. And you could do the SAME thing with a PAIR of Inexpensive Solid Signal HDB-4x 4-Bay Bowties and an RF Combiner/Splitter:
https://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_...s/DB8E-TDS.pdf

To improve the Two (or Three) Antenna System, SINGLE CHANNEL INJECTOR FILTERS (from Jan Janacek or Tin-Lee) for Ch24 and/or Ch31 [and perhaps Ch46-49 Custom Filter for Third Group] can be used to minimize Multipath and Noise Injection from one Antenna into the other Antenna's Channels.

Thank you for the response. I am deciding between the DB-8e 8-Bay Bowtie and Solid Signal also has a 8 Bay Bow tie. https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Signal...cm_wl_huc_item

The A-D DB-8e 8-Bay Bowtie looks a little better built. I can pick them up for $100 locally. Of the two which would you pick? Could I stack two A-D DB-8e 8-Bay Bowties or put them back to back? Just a thought....

Unfortunately the tree coverage is really hurting the signals. Looks like the immediate surround area trees are over 60 feet high. No real openings...

Thanks for the help.

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post #29 of 47 Old 05-01-2017, 12:06 PM
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Yes you can Vertically Stack two DB-8e's (and pretty much ANY other Antenna).
If you are trying to receive Third Group of Stations, you can certainly mount them (more or less) Back-to-Back.

IF you can afford it, A-D DB-8e is probably more likely to survive your infrequent high winds:
BTW: 55 m/s is 123 mph.
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post #30 of 47 Old 05-01-2017, 01:22 PM
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If you couldn't pick up either of the CBS stations with your Yagi antenna aimed directly at either of them from multiple points on your roof, I'd assume that the signal didn't make the trip. As a last ditch effort with the current antenna, add your preamp between the antenna and your Winegard meter and repeat the "walk the roof" exercise. That will improve it's sensitivity and hopefully won't cause new issues.

Any chance that you can go "down low" and visually see the horizon in the needed direction? Sometimes the signals seem to tunnel under the tree crowns and the signal might make it.
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