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post #1 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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OK. Here is some serious info I was able to obtain from a very high level employee of Echostar. He is not a CSR or a Supervisor. Saying exactly who he is will kill any trust he has with me, so I'm not going to give any more details. But the info I got from him is completely legit. And this guy is a higher level E* guy than my other source. We talked for over and hour last night and here is what I can say in public...

1. The Superdish upgrade will include everything you need. Switches, power adaptors, RG6 cable runs (no receiver, of course). But it is required you have a professional install. No exceptions. Address "brokers" ;), who are receiving CBS-HD, are ship out of luck, unless you can find a professional who will play along. Anyone know one such installer in CT?! :D

2. The 61.5 and 148 birds will have ALL HD moved to the 105 bird within 6 months of November 15. That is the current plan. DISH wants to have every HD user upgraded to the Superdish by May 2004. Then, bye-bye 5000 HD Modulator. Note: this move could happen earlier than May.

3. It was confirmed that the 6000 receiver cannot downconvert HD and therefore will always output full 1080i or 720p via component and RGB. Period. That is set in stone. One more reason to hold onto it. The analog RGB is perfect for non-DVI equipped projectors. The 6000 is currently just $199 (w/8PSK but no 8VSB).

4. The 211 receiver is still on, but delayed due to Mitsubishi hemming and hawing. E* is ready to go with it, but Mitsubishi seems to be having issues. Situation developing.

5. The PVR921 is "Very buggy." It will be launched in a limited fashion. Don't expect it to be available at your local Sears until Spring, unless the bugs can be ironed out, of course. The biggest problem is crashing from doing too many things simultaneously. Those of you who went through hell with the 6000 or 721 receivers when they were first launched will understand what I mean.

6. The Firewire is not turned on because of serious software issues. They are only supporting the JVC30K and cannot get that to work "reliably" with it right now. They are working 24/7 to fix this and "it has nothing to do with Hollywood." I am concerned about this, because I could not get any ETA on when the Firewire could be turned on. It could be delayed for a very long time. But I was told flat out this is not a Hollywood issue. Hollywood seems to think tape isn't a factor anyway. (This info contradicts what I have been told by a lower level E* guy)

7. HD capacity for the PVR921 will be over 20 hours, but it is not recommended you go over 20 hours to avoid bug issues. That's about 10 movies.

8. 5C won't be used by anyone in 2004, except maybe PPV, which is not decided. HBO and Showtime don't even have it on the drawing board. Told ya!

9. E*'s cost for the PVR921, which has an MSRP of $999, is just over $1400! They are taking a loss on every single one they sell. Hence the monthly fee. Dealer cost is going to be $950. Yup. You read that right. Dealers will make only $50 on each unit they sell. Ouch.

10. The 811 was originally supposed to have Firewire. It was removed for a variety of reasons, including bugs that couldn't be fixed on time. Don't expect future models to have it.

So there you have it. That is what I know. All interesting news. Keep in mind that thing change, so a lot of the info above can be out of date down the road.

By the way, a useless statistic: There are currently 2,400 active DISH 5000 users.

11/2/2003 update and additional news:

Here is some Phone line hookup, Supderdish and free DVR510 news.

OK, I had a talk with my guy on the inside of E* this morning. I called after gettig a letter from E* telling me I need to hook up phone lines to all of my receivers. That story is about piracy. They need to stop people from having one account, spread over two locations. They will provide free wireless jacks to customers who can verify their receivers are at one location. You call them at 1-888-371-9077 and they will send signals to your receivers with numbers. You read them off and that verifies the receivers. You only pay shipping on the wireless jacks. Don't call unless you get a letter! No letter = no problem.

The DVR510 will be available to 2 year+ E* subscribers for FREE, as long as you sign a 2 year agreement. Now, this plan is new and may not be all done as far as details go. I'm not sure whch package you need to sign up for. There is DVR fee. :mad: I will look into this for myself. I'm not familiar with the DVR510, so I'll have to look into how good or bad it is.

Note: If you also go for the free Superdish, that will equal 3 years of committed service. That's a longass time.

The Superdish FREE upgrade offer will be around for one full year. It will not expire late January of 2004, so you can wait until Spring if you want. Those of you in colder climate areas needing a pole mount may want to do this. That's my plan. I'll need a pole mount.

Contrary to popular rumors, both types of Superdishes are being made and will continue to be made. They need both companies to make enough dishes to meet the demand. Both test out equally, so which one you get won't matter and you cannot choose. Ground pole installs are free with the upgrade, but only with a 4 ft pole. My guy inside will look into what it will cost for taller poles (I'll need one at about 8 ft).

They won't do chimney installs. They will do roof installs. That is not set in stone yet.

They are in the process of negotiating with Starz, NBC for Bravo and at least three other providers (he wouldn't say who) for HD content. HD-PPV will return on the Superdish.

I asked about the TWO TOWERS pan & scan HD debacle. He didn't see it himself and was unaware, but will immediately look into it. He was very surprised this happened. He's an HD guy himself and has last year's FELLOWSHIP HD-PPV broadcast recorded.

Last, the PVR921 will be released this year. They are being made, software is more stable, my guy has his demo unit and likes it a lot, but Firewire is still disabled and will be so through the Winter months.

That's all I have.

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post #2 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 07:11 AM
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The PVR921 is "Very buggy." It will be launched in a limited fashion. Don't expect it to be available at your local Sears until Spring, unless the bugs can be ironed out, of course. The biggest problem is crashing from doing too many things simultaneously
Great.

Here we go again!

:(
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post #3 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 07:16 AM
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This statement:

Quote:
The 811 was originally supposed to have Firewire. It was removed for a variety of reasons, including bugs that couldn't be fixed on time. Don't expect future models to have it.
seems to contradict this statement:

Quote:
The Firewire is not turned on because of serious software issues. They are only supporting the JVC30K and cannot get that to work "reliably" with it right now. They are working 24/7 to fix this
If they are releasing the 921 with Firewire not enabled, and are working on it "24/7" to fix it, why couldn't they have done the same thing with the 811???
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post #4 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 07:28 AM
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Prolly because one is just an entry level HD receiver and one is the flagship. Regardless, how could one not expect the 921 to be bug riddled no matter how long it's been in development. Hasnt virtually every other E* receiver ever produced had issues? And this one is far more "complicated" than anything previous to it.

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post #5 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 08:23 AM
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so should a person with a non-dvi set go with a model 6000 over the 811? still having a hard time understanding the advantages vs disadvantages between the two.....and by the way I just replayed the charlie chat from my 501 and he clearly states that it will have the 8psk module and the module for receiving ota broadcast channels in the 6000.
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post #6 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 08:45 AM
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"3. It was confirmed that the 6000 receiver cannot downconvert HD and therefore will always output full 1080i or 720p via component and RGB. Period. That is set in stone. One more reason to hold onto it. The analog RGB is perfect for non-DVI equipped projectors. The 6000 is currently just $199 (w/8PSK but no 8VSB)."

Where can I get a 6000 with 8PSK for $199? I'll just buy one to have around. Is there a programming commitment? I'm not going to startup my Dish subscription until I have a 921!

-Thanks

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post #7 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 08:47 AM
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Very nice report, Matt. No surprises in it but good confirmation on the time table for the next 9 months. I appreciate that bit of new info.

I also am thankful you cleared the air on the 1394 issue. It is exactly the same info I had on it obviously from another source. A bit of advice from one who has been there, Don't get too upset when others will continue to propagate bogus theories based on other published sources that it IS a Hollywood issue. Lots of people still want to believe so just let them. The truth will soon be out anyway.

I was not quite sure I understood the bit about address brokers and the superdish install. Could not follow how they were related including the CBS-HD connection. I have a waiver on file and continue to get CBS-HD for $1.50. I don't know for how long because of the new court rulings, though.

About the crashing with too much stuff going on... This is a serious issue as it, if you recall was problematic in the demo we did last January. More specifically, the crash was more serious than most realize as to recover from it back then required a card in and out to re-initialize the 921. The crash then that was triggered as soon as you switched channels from an 8psk to a 4psk and back... quickly. Similar to what you said as doing too much too fast. The recovery, unfortunately, took a bit of time, like 5 minutes. This will be a huge area of complaint and I really do hope they get this under control before release but it sounds doubtful. I really thought this had been fixed but if anything at all did surprise me in your list it was this crash issue that was observed and of no surprise to the techs there from England. Subsequent demos of the 921, I understand were tightly controlled to avoid known crash triggers. Thus, I sort of forgot about it until your listing.

Thanks again!
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post #8 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 08:48 AM
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you have to commit to at least the top 50 package and the hd package to get the 6000 at that price.
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post #9 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Moderator, can you change the double "811, 811" listing in the subject thread to "811, 211"? The double 811 is a type on my part. :(

Quote:
If they are releasing the 921 with Firewire not enabled, and are working on it "24/7" to fix it, why couldn't they have done the same thing with the 811???
Money. As DP1 said, it is an entry level receiver. They are selling it at a huge loss, so they are not about to make it more complicated and costly to get rid of the bugs. Not to mention the lack of Firewire brings their costs down.

Don "address brokering" is basically this: You live in say, New Jersey, and do not qualify for locals. So you "move" to somewhere inside the NY area that qualifies for the local package. You keep your billing address as your present address. Presto and instant CBS-HD. This is done by far more people than you might think. ;)

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post #10 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 09:59 AM
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Will the 211 firewire work with the JVC30K or just the Mits display? I'll hold on to my 6000 till it dies and buy the 211 just for recording, if the answer to my question is yes on the 30K. The $5 a month charge for a seond receiver sure sounds better than a grand and still have the DVR fee with the 921.
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post #11 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 10:11 AM
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Anyone at Dish ever consider getting out of the hardware business? This stuff with the 921 is scary. They have been working on this thing for 2 years, it uses (presumably, and I may well be wrong) the same basic chipset and probably much of the code from the 721 and they still can't get it to work right?

I mean, after having used DishPlayers for a few years that according to Dish, "have no bugs", how bad must the 921 be for them to say it is very buggy?

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post #12 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 10:25 AM
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ehhh I don't belive anything .. Dish changes its mind every single day ..


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post #13 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 10:27 AM
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matt so the 6000 deal will not include both hdtv modules afterall. or are you saying right now i can buy a 6000 with only the one and after the 16th i can get both in a 6000 for 199 if i take the deal and commitment to programming.
in other words the deal from chat was initially misreported

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post #14 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 10:28 AM
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Cripes. I'm not getting an HDTV until I can record and timeshift HD. Can anyone tell me what the current recording options are with a 6000? Will it work with the Vividlogic Firebus software and a Mits TV?
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post #15 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Stevens
Moderator, can you change the double "811, 811" listing in the subject thread to "811, 211"? The double 811 is a type on my part.
Got it.

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post #16 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 10:53 AM
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don gald to hear you to have heard that the fireiwre issue is not a copyright concern thing. too bad they are having so much trouble getting firewire to work. guess it is not easy to do with sat signals. hmmm the 211 must only be ready and able to work with displays only tho as i cant imagine it's firwire output works with dvhs and the 921's doesn't..

so is teh 169time mod to the 6000 working better then teh directv mods? or does it have similar ( to the directv mods) issues

it sounds like it could be a long long time if ever dish get this figured out. and sounds like it could be the case that after may next year or sooner there will be no way to record dish hd to tape or any sat service other then with a 169time mod .. unless jvc comes thur

i wonder if jvc is having similar trouble getting firewire to work on their dish pvr. Are they totally different products from a design stand point or is teh 921 just a loaded version

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post #17 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Will the 211 firewire work with the JVC30K or just the Mits display?
It will only work with the Mits. As of right now. But then again, that may change. It's still up in the air.

The Firewire on the PVR921 is not standard (unlike the 211 firewire), which is why it is renamed DISHwire. This is E*'s brilliant move and the reason we are having problems. My source couldn't get into the reasons why this is being done, but sounded frustrated at it all. It sounds like they want to pick and choose what devices will work with the 921 to avoid things like the MyHD and Hipix cards from working.

As for the 6000, it is supposed to have both modules, but frankly, so many people at E* are contradicting each other on this that I don't know what to believe.

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post #18 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Stevens
4. The 211 receiver is still on, but delayed due to Mitsubishi hemming and hawing. E* is ready to go with it, but Mitsubishi seems to be having issues. Situation developing.
Matt,
thanks for all the info you provided. I have to comment on the 211. While you have E*'s side of the story, I am told that E* is actually the one with the issues, not Mits. Just look at all of the problems they are having with the 921, that is telling in its own.

Obviously there is some sort of issue with the 211. I sure hope it gets hammered out soon as we the consumers are the ones paying the price for its delay.

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post #19 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 02:15 PM
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Matt,
Thanks for that very informative post.

Thanks to your info, I just emailed dishdepot and got Mark to agree to let me out of the pre-order agreement on the 921 that I did last winter.

This 921 is a total fiasco (as well as having to mess with moving my dishes around) and when my 5000+mod stops working for recording HD , I am ditching all this sat stuff and going to digital cable.

There is an HD capable cable PVR that is supposed to be available in November (this century).

Joe
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post #20 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 03:47 PM
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The 211 with firewire, but without record? The 811 without firewire. The 921 with firewire turned off until... someday, maybe, not today though? (Sound & Vision says "next year some time.") Toss in a prorietary firewire interface and what do you have?

All bad news on the HD Recording front... Unless, of course, you're working for 169time!

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post #21 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 05:20 PM
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hmm why the non standard design this makes me skeptical of the not for hollywood stuff, i smell a rat, did we ever confirm if the dump from hard drive will be allowed for copy once flagged content recorded to the hard drive? sorry to bring up this old rumor up but would like it put to rest one way of another. it should be able to be answered at this point.

seems to me they should just use 5c and leave it at that. something seems fishy , there must be a reason they are going to t eh trouble of selectivity.

hopefully jvc will come through, is there unit going to have working firewire from day one?. thank goodness that they have incentive to do so, a dish box would make a great source for their dvhs machines -- this is why i have always had the idea that they would be the most likely to come through with firewire. hopefully that feeling turns out to be true, as everything else is starting to smell pretty bad. mit blames dish dish blames mits no date on teh 921 activation etc.

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post #22 of 1126 Old 09-12-2003, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Stevens
By the way, a useless statistic: There are currently 2,400 active DISH 5000 users.
I wonder how many of these are HD subscribers/modulator users? These are the only ones that would be effective by the move of all HD to 105, right?
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post #23 of 1126 Old 09-13-2003, 01:30 AM
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"6. The Firewire is not turned on because of serious software issues. They are only supporting the JVC30K and cannot get that to work "reliably" with it right now. They are working 24/7 to fix this and "it has nothing to do with Hollywood." I am concerned about this, because I could not get any ETA on when the Firewire could be turned on. It could be delayed for a very long time. But I was told flat out this is not a Hollywood issue. Hollywood seems to think tape isn't a factor anyway. (This info contradicts what I have been told by a lower level E* guy)"

This mirrors what I was told also. In addition, JVC30K was said to be working, but maybe only in isolated tests and not reliably in beta. The Mits was also being tested but they were(at that time) not able to get the control function to work and were waiting on Mits for support.


"The Firewire on the PVR921 is not standard (unlike the 211 firewire), which is why it is renamed DISHwire. This is E*'s brilliant move and the reason we are having problems. My source couldn't get into the reasons why this is being done, but sounded frustrated at it all. It sounds like they want to pick and choose what devices will work with the 921 to avoid things like the MyHD and Hipix cards from working."

The story I got had a different twist-
The reason for the name "DishWire" ? was that they wanted to have a trademarked name for the hard drive dump of content. It was a special moniker due to their unique application of this IEEE1394 technology but the actual electronics is a standard IEEE1394 protocol. The ability to prevent certain devices from functioning with the 921 was said to be a simple matter of listing them in the 1394 revocation list. At the time I discussed this E* had no plans to list any devices but added that is a matter of policy and if what Matt says is true maybe they now will add various identifiers for 1394 devices to the list. The reliability issues connected with any 1394 to JVC30K VCR is a long listed track record of problems. The trouble with digital 1394 is that it is very difficult to know if your source is the problem (921) or the JVC failed. I have NO 1394 devices here in the HDTV operation that work 100% All have reliability issues as compared to old fashion analog VCR's we are accustomed to.


The 211 was demoed with a Mitsubishi 1394 connection. The only issue I saw that would prevent a satisfactory recording is that what you see on the screen would be what you would get in your recording but when menus and guide info is present may shut down the recording. Plus there are no control functions to operate the 1394 VCR from the 211. I have not heard but my guess is they have indeed discovered issues that make the Mitsubishi system (Monitor and VCR 1394 combo) not work right with the 211. However the solo TV monitor worked fine when I saw it. I'd bet Mits doesn't want the 211 to be released unless it does work properly with the VCR as that is MIts' system.
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post #24 of 1126 Old 09-13-2003, 04:31 AM
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Don wrote
"The crash then that was triggered as soon as you switched channels from an 8psk to a 4psk and back... quickly. Similar to what you said as doing too much too fast. The recovery, unfortunately, took a bit of time, like 5 minutes. This will be a huge area of complaint and I really do hope they get this under control before release but it sounds doubtful. "

Won't this be taken care of by the superdish, i.e. there won't be 4psk?
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post #25 of 1126 Old 09-13-2003, 06:45 AM
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alv- only the new HDTV channels are 8PSK, all others are 4PSK. I think when they dump all older HDTV channels from 61.5 that are 4PSK now to a total Superdish requirement for HDTV, then we still will have all the SDTV channels on 4PSK. The only way I could see it being taken care of if you avoided the channels that remain 4PSK. When I saw the demo crash, it was not when switching back and forth between 4PSK channels but when switching between the DiscoveryHD and other HDTV or SDTV channels. At that time Discovery HD was the only 8PSK channel on the same 61.5 bird.

I'd bet, however that E* will fix that bug long before they dump all 4PSK transmissions.
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post #26 of 1126 Old 09-13-2003, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don Landis
[i] Plus there are no control functions to operate the 1394 VCR from the 211.
I would not expect there to be. All control would be done from the master 1394 device such as NetCommand or a similar control system. This would include all basic controls and programming schedule for recording.

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post #27 of 1126 Old 09-13-2003, 08:20 AM
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thanks don very interesting

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post #28 of 1126 Old 09-13-2003, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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did we ever confirm if the dump from hard drive will be allowed for copy once flagged content recorded to the hard drive?
On the beta test units with Firewire enabled, yes, that is how it works and is how it will work with 5C content, of which nothing will be for quite some time apparently. Even HD-PPV will not be 5C off the bat.

To quote The Princess Bride: "I hate waiting."

;)

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post #29 of 1126 Old 09-13-2003, 12:48 PM
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I have been waiting a year to get HDTV with Dish into my projector but I kept waiting for the 921 or 811 to come out. My projector (Matinee 1HD) has VGA, Component and s-video inputs.

Is the talk about the possibility of Hollywood requiring the down-converting component video a valid concern? Why cause downgrading of the component video connection and not DVI? How am I going to record from the component anyway? Is that a reason to jump on the 6000 and use the VGA (RGB) port? This talk is probably the biggest reason I am considering getting the Dish 6000 instead of waiting for the 921.
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post #30 of 1126 Old 09-13-2003, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Stevens

9. E*'s cost for the PVR921, which has an MSRP of $999, is just over $1400! They are taking a loss on every single one they sell. Hence the monthly fee. Dealer cost is going to be $950.
Matt, do you know the breakout of the $1400 cost? I can't help but wonder if there is some software amortization buried in there with all of the SW bugginess.

Thanks,

PS That HD Tivo for D* is sounding a lot better. What's better to wait for in "Spring 2004", non-buggy 921 or D*'s HD Tivo?
<sigh>
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