LG LST-3510A DVI/DVD/HDTV Impressions - AVS Forum
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Old 11-29-2003, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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What AVS category should I post to? The LG LST-3510A is really a unique three-in-one combination and crosses over AVS forum boundaries:

1) Dvd player with DVI-HDTV 720p, 1080i output
2) HDTV DTV Tuner
3) DVI switcher

Existing system
-------------------
Sony HS20 projector with 92" 16:9 Firehawk screen, 60" GWIII rear projection, Momitsu 880 DVI player, Samsung T160 HDTV tuner, Pioneer 47Ai. Note: DVI outputs used, DVI to HDMI cable on order for the Sony HS20.

Critical Reevaluation
-------------------------
The LG Electronics ST-3510A Dvd player caused myself a to perform a critical reassessment of digital video technology. This technology is actually better than what I thought it could be!

Edited update on 12-06-2003: added 1:1 benefit section
Edited update on 12-04-2003: Removed overly cautious section
Edited update on 11-30-2003: See new section * removed*

Hardly anyone here speaks about the quality of MPEG2 decoders. Lots of talk about de-interlacting and up-conversion. But MPEG2 decoder/output quality?

Specifically my findings indicate that the LG-3510 greatly reduces MPEG2 artifacts, including block noise as compared to my existing equipment. Block noise is a somewhat clear crunched cellophane you see all to often in digital video. I find this very irritating!

DVD and HDTV Playback
---------------------------
The following observations are true for both Dvd and HDTV television pictures. The LST-3510 improves upon my existing equipment in the following areas:

1) sharper but NOT artificially so (like the bad-boy Samsung 931)
2) improved natural detail
3) transparency - the look through quality of reduced MPEG II artifacts
4) sharp and natural as a tack. I use 720p for Dvd playback and 1080i for HDTV. ( I must still manually switch this on the front panel)
5) refinement!

Note: these observations are just my subjective opinion. I await confirmation from my fellow AVS forum members.

Dvd Color Quality
------------------
The Dvd color quality has changed too. But I'm not able to state anything but maybe less is better. For DVD the color bandwidth is a lot less than the luminance bandwidth. Perhaps my existing MPEG2 decoders overstate the color and obscure the luminance detail?

Because its picture quality refinement, I place the 3510 ahead of the Momitsu 880 and Bravo D1. Other than the player making a little bit of noise occasionally, I find NO reliability or operational issues. We have been delivered! In fact quality appears first rate...

DVI Switch
-----------
The LG-3510 ingeniously solves the common DVI switching dilemma between DVI player and HDTV receiver. No 250-800 dollar switcher needed. Only one expensive DVI cable required instead of three. A couch potatoes dream!

HDTV DTV Tuner
--------------------
No more noise when viewing the unused analog NTSC tuner. The 3510 does not contain one. The unit is similar to the Sony 300 and Zenith 520 except there is NO Direct-TV satellite tuner. Selectable variable/automatic and fixed resolution output decoding. Nice.

As for the picture quality: Even though the Jay Leno show looked great before it looks incredible now. Makes the eves pop out of your head. Motion is much clearer and natural. Sony 300 and Zenith 520 owners should be able to attest to this!

Comparison with Samsung T160 HDTV Receiver
---------------------------------------------------
Once you see better you know it. The Samsung 160 picture quality is much coarser/grainer and lacks the refinement of the 3510.

Who is LG Electronics?
------------------------
They make the Sony 200-300 and Zenith 520 HDTV receivers. They look similar to this unit.
LG just begun to distribute their own products here. Distributed by Zenith. Do they own Zenith?

Hope that is enough for now. I bought mine locally with a 20% discount with no sales tax.

12-06-03 Update
--------------------
In my original review, I had mentioned that I was using the new Sony HS20 front projector. The HS20 contains a performance enhancing mode which allows for much improved picture quality. Here at AVS forum this effect is commonly referred to as "1:1 pixel mapping".

For home theater 1:1 pixel mapping makes a dramatic improvement in black level, contrast, color quality and sharpness. Anyone would notice the difference. Its like engaging the after-burners a jet fighter. Or total eclipse, the difference being almost night and day. In summary, the gain in performance is exhilarating to behold.

Some home theater digital displays devices allow for 1:1 mapping. CRT never perform true digital 1:1 mapping as they scan in the analog domain. Most expensive DLP and LCD front projectors include it. Most rear projection displays could allow for it, but the designers have shamelessly removed it.

Computer desktop monitors always include it. Otherwise the text would be distorted and blurry. Essentially 1:1 mapping requires that every pixel pass-thru the display device and remain untouched its scaling circuitry.

At this point in time in the technology curve, full res HDTV 1920*1080i displays are just not here yet. But 1280*720 HDTV displays are common-place.

So what does this all have to do with this LG 3510 Dvd player review?

My review used the combination of the 3510 and the new Sony HS-20. I selected DVI output. I selected 1280*720 resolution. I set the HS-20 to pass-thru/1:1/ computer input.

I didn't know it at the time but I, for the first time, had just met all of the conditions necessary to engage perfect digital 1:1 mapping. I wrote the review based upon this combination. Anyone would notice a huge increase in quality, especially with a 92" projector capable of displaying tack sharp images.

In the future reviewers should state if they are using digital 1:1 mapping mode.

Let not any of this distract from the fact that the 3510 is the best reasonably priced 1280*720p (1:1 capable) player on the market.
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Old 11-29-2003, 09:55 AM
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Does this unit only scale dvd on the dvi output?

Thanks
G
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Old 11-29-2003, 10:39 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by softengr
Who is LG Electronics?

LG just begun to distribute their own products here. Distributed by Zenith. Do they own Zenith?

Yes, LG owns Zenith. LG is one of the larger Korean electronics companies and they have been in the US market for a more than a few years. In the US they distribute a number of products, including a very popular line of cell phones, home appliances, TV's, computer monitors & CD/DVD drives.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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Old 11-29-2003, 11:34 AM
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"The problem is this unit will not upscale a copyright proteced DVD (e.g. Disney movies) from 480i to 720p or 1080i throught the DVI output. It will stay at 480p"
-- softengr - can you verify this ?? i don't see why the 3510a can't do this with a HDCP complaint display.

also is there any aspect controls ???
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Old 11-29-2003, 12:53 PM
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Yes, the Disney DVD problem was reported earlier by an LG engineer. However, he had an early version of the 3510A and at least one post reports no problems getting 720p/1080i out of Disney DVDs via DVI.

softengr- Could you try a Disney DVD on the 3510A and report back on the results?

Neither the HDCP compliant Samsung 931 or Denon 5900 have problems w/Disney DVDs, so there is no reason why the HDCP compliant 3510A should either.

Like all DVDs Disney uses CSS copy protection which should display on an HDCP display device from an HDCP DVD player according to the DVD Forum DVI standards for DVI & HDCP.
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Old 11-29-2003, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
Yes, the Disney DVD problem was reported earlier by an LG engineer. However, he had an early version of the 3510A and at least one post reports no problems getting 720p/1080i out of Disney DVDs via DVI.

softengr- Could you try a Disney DVD on the 3510A and report back on the results?

Neither the HDCP compliant Samsung 931 or Denon 5900 have problems w/Disney DVDs, so there is no reason why the HDCP compliant 3510A should either.

Like all DVDs Disney uses CSS copy protection which should display on an HDCP display device from an HDCP DVD player according to the DVD Forum DVI standards for DVI & HDCP.

First let me state that my results are only for a handful of disks. Yes I have seen the message on Disney disks twice. For instance Toy Story 2 will not let me play ON A FAST LOAD ATTEMPT.

What the is h*** is a "A FAST LOAD ATTEMPT?"

HDCP communicates about every two seconds between the source and the display device. If there is no update then you will see the infamous text display and not the picture. Right?

So if I slow down a little (and watch some Disney commercials) when loading a DVD to let the two communicate, everything will play. Again everything (Disney included) I've tried WILL play.

But it sounds as if the technology needs to be refined.

BTW, Toy Story 2 looks drop-dead, knock-out orgasmic beautiful on the Sony HS-20!
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Old 11-30-2003, 01:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Propel
softengr,

Please answer the queston directly. What is the picture format (480p, 720p or 1080i) of Toy Story 2 you played on the 3510A? Did you use a component or DVI connection?

I believe it is a fatal mistake for LG to even have this model on the production line if it doesn't output 720p and 1080i signal for ALL DVDs on the market.

I already stated "directly" in my original post I use 1280*720p for DVD playback. It is slightly sharper than 1920*1080i.

The only DVI signal format not selectable is 480i. 480p is selectable.
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Old 11-30-2003, 04:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Propel
Thanks, softengr. Your great review (first post) sounded like a press release from LG.

LG has great products. Let LG jump in and take market share away from the sleeping giants:
Sony, Panasonic, Denon, Pioneer, JVC deserve to be "slapped silly" for not bringing out quality mass market DVI/HDMI equipped players!
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Old 11-30-2003, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Propel
Thanks for the effort. You just told eveyone your review was highly biased and cannot be used to help someone to make a purchase decision.

I am afraid LG is now a Sony's puppy. I see the DVI nightmare is coming for those who purchased HDTVs before 2003 (no DVI input). This product (3510A) is a perfect example:

- No 720p/1080i DVD output on component
- No DVD output on RGB

This whole DVI BS is all about what Sony and Pioneer etc. want. Video equipment should be equipped with firewire ports.

The fact is that the LG 3150 DVI picture quality and reliability are superior to that of the Bravo D1 and Momitsu 880.

I state the facts. In your anger you twist logic and take out your copy protection frustration on me. Don't shoot the messenger or fellow AVS member.

It is a fact that enraged people do not think clearly. Calm down!
We are on the same side.
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Old 11-30-2003, 09:24 AM
 
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Originally posted by Propel
Thanks for the effort. You just told eveyone your review was highly biased and cannot be used to help someone to make a purchase decision.

I am afraid LG is now a Sony's puppy. I see the DVI nightmare is coming for those who purchased HDTVs before 2003 (no DVI input). This product (3510A) is a perfect example:

- No 720p/1080i DVD output on component
- No DVD output on RGB

This whole DVI BS is all about what Sony and Pioneer etc. want. Video euipment should be equipped with firewire ports.

Personally, I am not sure you are correct regarding your statement "-no 720p/1080i DVD output on component and -no DVD output on RGB.

Further, firewire output on STB would benefit copying digital content, but would not be compatible with most displays. Most digital displays have component video, RGB or DVI inputs, which the LST-3510A has.

LG is an industry leader and innovator in everything they do, cell phone, white goods, STB's and Plasma displays. LG's STB's are purchased and re-sold by Hughes and Sony. Sony and Hughes are very competitive manufacturers of the same technologies. Hughes and Sony selected LG's products because they could not build the quality and features at a competitive price.

LG is on the front line of advanced digital technologies. These statements are well known facts by dealers, consumers and trade and consumer magazines. LG built the first ATSC HD tuner/PVR, the first High resolution DVD player/QAM/ATSC HD STB. LG/Zenith is the inventor of the HD technology adopted by the FCC as the industry standard.

We have sold a large quanity of LST-3510A's, however, unfortunately, due to very limited allocation, only delivered a limited quanity to date.

My own beta test and the consumers who I have delivered the units to are extremely happy with the image quality and overall operation. This is truly an incredible product, integrating a very high resolution DVD player, QAM and ATSC HD decoder in one box with DVI, RGB and component video output.
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Old 11-30-2003, 09:54 AM
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DTV TiVo Dealer, do you know if the LST-3510A simultaneously outputs 480i through composite video when it is set to output 1080i or 480p through component or DVI? In other words, is the 480i composite video always active?

Thanks.

John
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Old 11-30-2003, 10:07 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Propel

I am afraid LG is now a Sony's puppy.

Wrong.

Quote:


This whole DVI BS is all about what Sony and Pioneer etc. want.

Wrong.

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Old 11-30-2003, 10:57 AM
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Softeng,

What is your source for DVI to HDMI cable? Can you confirm that the cable works?

I have an HS-20 too, thinking about a LST 3510A.

Bob.

Former Top 1000 Amazon reviewer bemoaning the loss of objective user reviews. Amazon, stop your complacency!
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Old 11-30-2003, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by BobSalita
Softeng,

What is your source for DVI to HDMI cable? Can you confirm that the cable works?

I have an HS-20 too, thinking about a LST 3510A.

Bob.

CAB-DVI2HDMI-6MM DVI to HDMI cable 6 foot $49.00

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2030
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Old 11-30-2003, 08:40 PM
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softengr,

Regarding your 11-30 update: I own the NEC HT1000 projector which also processes the incoming DVI picture. Since some projectors improve the incoming signal, it's hard to separate which device is doing what - but when you combine them, the result can be amazing!

Rich
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Old 12-01-2003, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Rich4av
softengr,

Regarding your 11-30 update: I own the NEC HT1000 projector which also processes the incoming DVI picture. Since some projectors improve the incoming signal, it's hard to separate which device is doing what - but when you combine them, the result can be amazing!

Exactly! I attempt to be very cautious in making bold statements. It is always better to say "I don't know" or admit the truth to the best of your knowledge. Otherwise the lies will catch up to you.

Also I hate coming to conclusions without knowing what is really "going on". An ill-informed decision. For competitive advantage, manufactures keep information like this "close to the chest". So we are left to guess, speculate and assume.

Now at least us two know why the NEC 1000 has been so favorably reviewed. Grin like a Cheshire cat ...

Also don't miss this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...26#post2989826
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Old 12-01-2003, 11:36 AM
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Propel-

DVD Forum rules permit only 480i/p from Component outputs, and prohibit any RGB output at all from DVD players. LG is a member of the Forum and is required to make players in conformance with its rules. Hence, 720p/1080i are available only from the HDCP compliant DVI output for DVDs.
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Old 12-01-2003, 03:29 PM
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Is the DVI DVI-D or DVI-I?

In other words, can you use a DVI to VGA converter on this model?

TIA,

Bill
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Old 12-01-2003, 03:50 PM
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DVI-D. It has a separate VGA (HD-15) output, but I don't think the DVD player will output through it.

Robert
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Old 12-01-2003, 05:36 PM
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The SRP for LST-3510a is 499 dollars per the Fall 2003 HDTV guide of the Consumer Electronic Association of which LG Electronics is a member. I have found dealers in California, like Paradyme in Sacramento, that have it in stock and sell it for SRP. Unfortunately, I live in Portland, OR and haven't located a LG AV dealer yet and dealers like Paradyme won't ship it to me unless they have verified that there is no local dealer.

I would suggest those interested in this wonderful device locate a local dealer (from the LG website) and save some money as well as some peace of mind.
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Old 12-01-2003, 06:07 PM
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And the problem is what? Economics 101 --- Supply vs. Demand
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Old 12-01-2003, 09:51 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by KornerKlub
And the problem is what? Economics 101 --- Supply vs. Demand

And usually supply catches up with demand in elastic markets. Informed consumers are integral for such markets and this forum is a good source for that information.

You don't see good brands like Canon, Sony, Infocus etc. release products with wide discrepencies in price. They enforce uniform pricing at least advertised pricing.
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Old 12-01-2003, 10:59 PM
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Hitachi makes a lot of LG's optical media products such a CDROM DVDROM and CDRW drives...

Al
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Old 12-01-2003, 11:12 PM
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softengr, have you found a remote control code to use for either half of the 3510A ?

Ken
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Old 12-02-2003, 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by Al Sherwood
Hitachi makes a lot of LG's optical media products such a CDROM DVDROM and CDRW drives...

Actually that is half right. The name of the company is H-L Data System (or something like that) guess what the H and L stand for.
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Old 12-02-2003, 07:04 AM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by KornerKlub
Actually that is half right. The name of the company is H-L Data System (or something like that) guess what the H and L stand for.

The HL stands for Hitachi Ltd.
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Old 12-03-2003, 09:05 AM
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softengr, does your 3510A go through an AUTO-DVI routine when you turn it or your TV on that results in a 480p DVI setting that you have to manually change using the buttons on the front panel ?

Ken
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Old 12-03-2003, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by kenhdtv
softengr, does your 3510A go through an AUTO-DVI routine when you turn it or your TV on that results in a 480p DVI setting that you have to manually change using the buttons on the front panel ?

Ken

I don't think so. I remembers what it was set to last. For my Sony HS-20 or GWIII (or any non 1280*720p) devices, I want independent settings for DVD and HDTV tuner. They are not.

I want 720p output for DVD. This looks best for DVD
I want native resolution output for HDTV (480p, 720p, 1080i). This looks best for HDTV.

This combination is not a choice from the multiple resolution conversion schemes offered in the menu.

If I select 720p fixed (for everything) then HDTV is 720 too. But then (the most common) 1080i HDTV sources are downscaled to 720p by the 3510A then upscaled to the Sony HS-20 native resolution. Not optimal for me but for THOSE WITH 720p DISPLAYS THIS IS A PERFECT SOLUTION!

Same hold true for fixed 1080i...

But 1280* 720 owners should not feel to smug, as I can clearly see the extra (1388*788) resolution that the Sony provides with 1080i sources.

So I have to get a little bit of exercise and manually switch resolutions when changing from HDTV to DVD.

Since you have a problem here I will check this soon and report back.
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Old 12-03-2003, 11:12 AM
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I've got a 720p display but the 3510A isn't retaining my last DVI output setting when I turn it off. It could be the "last DVD" memory because I left a Disney Nemo DVD in it which tries to switch to 480p. It that's not it, I may have a defective unit - bummer.

Ken
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Old 12-03-2003, 11:54 AM
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Has anyone tried this dvd player with the sony 34xbr910?

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