The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 229 - AVS Forum
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post #6841 of 16297 Old 07-24-2007, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocoLab View Post

Don F. and dxernut -- Thanks!

I was really tempted to try one, except that I guess the 4248 and 4228 are pretty comparable... Or at least, most posts I've read seem to think that. Is that what people here have found?

Hate to pay almost double the 4248's price, but if the 91 is that good, I guess I'll end up doing it...

By the way, Don F.: If you see see this post, how far away again is the channel 10 you're getting with the YA-1713? I have a far-off channel 11 I wish I could get, and that might be a cheap way to try it. (I'd love to try that huge Funke, but I'm not sure I have room for it.)

Thanks again, guys. Good stuff.

I have no experience with the 4228, but many in my area use one with good results. The 4248 is not as heavy and data says it is better in the upper vhf range. I was pleased with my 4248 (I paid $70) and its ability to pick up the Carolina stations, but my "mission" was to receive Atlanta. Four counties here in N E Ga. are in the Greenville dma, which means if you use satellite your "locals" are Carolina not Georgia, and I have beaten that horse to death.
The XG has outperformed the 4248 in receiving the Atlanta signals, enabling me to actually view news, weather, & sports from my own state.
I would advise you to get the xg91, and put to rest any doubt that will be in your head, if you buy the 4248.
The ya-1713 is doing a good job with ch. 11, 80 miles away. A few daytime drop-outs on ocassion, but at sunset ch 11 (dt 10 ) becomes very steady.
Your location and terrain will of course be the deciding factor. Most of the transmitters in Atlanta are about 2-thousand feet above sea level, and my location is 1-thousand feet above, with two edges inbetween, so says tv fool.
Good luck....

Tired
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post #6842 of 16297 Old 07-24-2007, 09:12 PM
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I bought a nice TV with digital tuner and I've been loving the improved PQ. I began messing around with the old attic VHF/UHF antenna, trying to perfect the reception. After several weeks, I moved the antenna up to the chimney, and was very surprised to discover that there was little, if any, improvement in PQ. I still had problems during the day - certain channels with macroblocking (term?), picture freezing, ... the usual stuff for digital reception.

I got tired of messin' around with it, so I bought a Channel Master 4228, and I thought I had finally licked the problem for good. My location is about 30 miles from all broadcast towers. And lucky for me, every broadcast antenna is pretty well grouped in a narrow (20 deg) range. (zip code 72301)

More than a few times, after spending hours bouncing (ha ha, I'm 56 - "bouncing" - right) between the top of the chimney and the living room, I went to bed happy that I finally achieved some really good reception (like 95 to 100 on the meter for every channel). But then the next morning, there it was again (on those same few problem channels) - those damned macro blocks. What really bugs me is that one of my problem channels is the excellent PBS station with all the HD broadcasts.

I am inclined to suspect the tree adjacent to the house is at least part of my problem. But that tree don't go nowhere at night, and my PQ is excellent after dark.

I am afraid that throwing money (i.e., channel master 7777 preamp) at this stuborn problem isn't going to solve it. I don't know if the problem is due to differences in the broadcast at night compared to the daytime, of if there is something about how the RF signal travels during the day vs. night.

I am concerned about overloading. But I don't know what else to do.

Ideas? Suggestions? Valium?

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post #6843 of 16297 Old 07-24-2007, 09:33 PM
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At 30 mi overload shouldn't be an issue. However, getting the antenna away from the tree would be the better option if feasible.

I have the CM 4228 with the CM 7777, and I have four channels at 40 mi through a tree. Three are solid locks all the time. The fourth I've never seen, but it has two side channels and a co-channel all with in 80mi, so you could have a hard time blaming the tree.

I'd strongly suggest trying to move the antenna around if possible.

If you have a long run (50' plus) throw on the CM 7777. Remember, the preamp is meant to hold a signal over a long run of cable. it cannot magically make the reception better.
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post #6844 of 16297 Old 07-24-2007, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowMeow View Post

At 30 mi overload shouldn't be an issue. However, getting the antenna away from the tree would be the better option if feasible.

I have the CM 4228 with the CM 7777, and I have four channels at 40 mi through a tree. Three are solid locks all the time. The fourth I've never seen, but it has two side channels and a co-channel all with in 80mi, so you could have a hard time blaming the tree.

I'd strongly suggest trying to move the antenna around if possible.

If you have a long run (50' plus) throw on the CM 7777. Remember, the preamp is meant to hold a signal over a long run of cable. it cannot magically make the reception better.

Okay, thanks. I've got the 7777 on order (cable run is 100 ft.). I'm glad to know it won't hurt my reception, at least.

If I cut down that tree, there's still another tree in the neighbor's yard 50 feet away. And another tree after that - etc. I guess my neighborhood is just 'tree infested', or shady, depending on how you look at it.

I did some pruning this weekend to clear out branches and twigs within about 15 feet of the antenna. I damn near killed myself up in that tree, but it didn't seem to make any difference to the PQ. (grrrr)

Anyone have any thoughts about the daytime /night time difference in reception "phenomenon"?

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post #6845 of 16297 Old 07-24-2007, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EArkHog View Post

Anyone have any thoughts about the daytime /night time difference in reception "phenomenon"?

That's just the diurnal cycle. The atmosphere heats and cools. The end consequence is that the reflection of the signal changes between day and night.

This will also shift as fall and winter come. Generally, these shifts are positive.

And when the trees lose their leaves, you might see some better signal from that, too.
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post #6846 of 16297 Old 07-25-2007, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
At 30 mi overload shouldn't be an issue.

Better look at the link I provided. He has stations less than 10 miles away. That amp will be swamped as any other will.

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post #6847 of 16297 Old 07-25-2007, 09:52 AM
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Quote:


yagi style is suited best and bowties handle the situation worst

Rick, please explain why.

Regarding that Winegard preamp, you don't think any preamp will be overload with that many stations 8-10 miles away?? I saw your thread in two other forums, have you found any plain 'amps' that have a very high input level capibility? The best I found was discontinued many years ago, but still may be available (Winegard DA-1018).

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post #6848 of 16297 Old 07-25-2007, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Better look at the link I provided. He has stations less than 10 miles away. That amp will be swamped as any other will.

Missed that 10 mi stations part. My bad. Good catch.
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post #6849 of 16297 Old 07-25-2007, 10:19 AM
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Since I don't know exactly where he is, that location was based on what the Tiger Map Server showed (which I know is not the best source).

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post #6850 of 16297 Old 07-25-2007, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Better look at the link I provided. He has stations less than 10 miles away. That amp will be swamped as any other will.

Who has that many stations 10 miles away?

Looks like MeowMeow was addressing EArkHog near Memphis (72301) and from that zip looks to be only a single (low power) station within 10 miles. Most around 25 miles or more away. Anything fading during the day (from weak signal) surely isn't strong enough to appreciably overload an amp and likely not a receiver for that matter, after 100 feet of coax. Of course 30 miles away and fading could be other issues, I'd want to check the corresponding analogs.
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post #6851 of 16297 Old 07-25-2007, 12:18 PM
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[/quote] the only times I have an issue with amplification is if the user is not content with just receiving the local market stations...but also want to receive stations in the next market or 2. you really do not need an amp in the suburbs unless the coax runs are long and split many times. and gain should be minimal under 30 miles.

I tend to install oversized antennas anyways and not smaller and have to amplify and deal with the issues associated with overamplification. many of the distribution amps that I have tried just do not suit my needs and have instead used the hdp 269 as a distribution amp.

the boonies are another process all together different.[/quote]

I bought the CM 4228 thinking it was oversized for the distance, and being less direction might do better at picking up signals filtering through the trees. But those thoughts were not based on any understanding of how this stuff really works.

I checked antennaweb again. You're right - it's not 30 miles. I've got 3 stations that are 25 miles out and 3 that are 20 miles out. I am interested only in the digital broadcasts, which are currently all UHF (hence the bowties).

I am afraid "suck it up" is what I'm stuck with. That and a brand new 7777.

You guys have great. Thanks.

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post #6852 of 16297 Old 07-25-2007, 05:35 PM
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I'm experimenting with signal levels, and increasing the signal level
(remove attenuators & splitters) helps some of the stations, both analog
and digital. But if I remove the last splitter then I get diagonal lines
on a low power analog UHF station (54). 54 needs about 6-8 DB of attenuation
(a 7.4 dB 4-way splitter is about right) to knock the lines down. But being
a weak station it is starting to flirt with snow. Another few dB (like a
3-way splitter) and there is significant snow. So I'm thinking it must not
be 54 that is too strong, this must be interference from the stronger TV
stations. I have the FM band trapped out, not using a preamp or dist amp.

Are diagonal lines a symptom of intermodulation distortion? Is there a way
to tell if reception problems on digital stations are from IMD?

Using the formulas on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation
I wrote a shell script to see what stations would give IMD, assuming a general
case where any frequency within the 6 MHz band could do it. With NTSC it would
most likely be the carriers that do the damage, but half the stations are ATSC.

Output for three of the more problematic stations:

chan30 (566-572MHz) - chan33 (584-590MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD
chan33 (584-590MHz) - chan40 (626-632MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD
chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan5 (72-78MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via f1-f2 IMD
chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan6 (82-88MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via f1-f2 IMD
chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan54 (710-716MHz) hurts chan27 (548-554MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

chan2 (54-60MHz) + chan24 (530-536MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1+f2 IMD
chan30 (566-572MHz) - chan27 (548-554MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD
chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan46 (662-668MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD
chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan48 (674-680MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD
chan43 (644-650MHz) - chan2 (54-60MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1-f2 IMD
chan43 (644-650MHz) - chan54 (710-716MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD
chan46 (662-668MHz) - chan5 (72-78MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1-f2 IMD
chan46 (662-668MHz) - chan6 (82-88MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1-f2 IMD
chan48 (674-680MHz) - chan6 (82-88MHz) hurts chan33 (584-590MHz) via f1-f2 IMD

chan4 (66-72MHz) + chan43 (644-650MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via f1+f2 IMD
chan6 (82-88MHz) + chan40 (626-632MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via f1+f2 IMD
chan8 (180-186MHz) + chan24 (530-536MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via f1+f2 IMD
chan40 (626-632MHz) - chan27 (548-554MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD
chan43 (644-650MHz) - chan33 (584-590MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD
chan48 (674-680MHz) - chan43 (644-650MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD
chan49 (680-686MHz) - chan43 (644-650MHz) hurts chan54 (710-716MHz) via 2f1-f2 IMD

2 is 100 KW NTSC
4 is 16 KW ATSC
5 is 2.7 KW NTSC
6 is 100 KW NTSC
8 is 316 KW NTSC
24 is 2690 KW NTSC
27 is 381 KW ATSC
30 is 741 KW ATSC
33 is 750 KW ATSC
40 is 839 KW ATSC
43 is 500 KW ATSC
46 is 1000 KW ATSC
48 is 200 KW ATSC
49 is 2950 KW NTSC
54 is 105 KW NTSC

But I also get hits for stations with very good reception.
48 comes in fine despite being adjacent to the strong 49.
Some digital stations come in better with more signal strength,
while others come in the same over a wide range. Some stations
frequently come in 100% perfect with a reported signal quality of
55%, while other stations consistantly have errors with a
reported signal quality of 95%.

One thing I'm trying to figure out is if I should use am amp to make up for
splitting the line several ways (at least 4 ways). But if the TV is getting
overloaded when not using a splitter, an amp would likely be overloaded
as well. Or would it?

Am I barking up the right tree? Or it it something else (not IMD) that is
creating the diagonal lines?
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post #6853 of 16297 Old 07-26-2007, 08:13 AM
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Any chance that Qualcomm is broadcasting on channel 55 in your area? That's another possible source of intermod products.

If it's coming from channel 49, you could probably play games like using two Jointennas to split channel 54 out, amplify it separately, and join it back in. If it's channel 55 (adjacent), things get much harder (read: more expensive).
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post #6854 of 16297 Old 07-26-2007, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad2 View Post

Are diagonal lines a symptom of intermodulation distortion? Is there a way to tell if reception problems on digital stations are from IMD?

Am I barking up the right tree? Or it it something else (not IMD) that is
creating the diagonal lines?

Tracing intermod can be hard, but your detailed explanation of the symptoms suggest that you are up to the task. Eliminate one of the two signals in the list that you posted and look for the interference. If the lines are still there, the filtered out suspect station is not the cause.

The layman's method to trace the source is creative use of filtering. For instance, a VHF/UHF band Joiner/Splitter can be used as a low pass filter to eliminate the VHF signal from getting to the tuner. This could be used eliminate the possibility of VHF stations intermoding with the UHF stations. I saw that on my antenna. At different times I took out the low band VHF stations by using a 4228 UHF only antenna and again by using a AP-4700 UHF only preamp.

Difficult FM interference may take two FM traps. Channel 54 is the 7th harmonic of 101.5 through 102.3 and the 8th harmonic of 88.7 through 89.5.

A single channel filter is very useful for troubleshooting, but they are expensive.

It may be helpful if you were willing to post your distance from the transmitters or even your exact location.
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post #6855 of 16297 Old 07-27-2007, 03:48 PM
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Code:
zip: 97005
antennas: Winegard PR-8800 and YA-1713
coax: Philips RG6 quad shield
diplexor: Picomacom UVSJ
filters:
        Picomacom HPF-54MHZ  54 MHz high pass  no attenuation spec

        3 95-108 MHz FM traps 20 dB each
        http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=4252+TV

        1 88-108 MHz FM trap  no attenuation spec
        http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?...ds&ATT=froogle

        I suspect the FM traps are similar to
        http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/fm/frqrsp.jpg
        http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/fm/sfmtrap.jpg

        ferrite sleeves to knock down common mode

splitter: Monster Cable 1 Ghz 4-way  7.4 dB

The antennas are in the attic, "looking" through wood clapboards.

Adding the 2nd 95-108 trap helped.  I'm not sure if the third is
doing anything significant.  But they didn't fix channel 6, so...

The 88-108 trap is to knock down KBVM 88.3 FM which interferes
with channel 6 audio.  More than one of these damages channel 6
too much.

I removed the 4-way splitter and verified the return of diagonal
lines on chan 54.  I disconnected the VHF-HI antenna and replaced
it with a terminator at the diplexor.  The diagonal lines on chan 54
disappeared, there is a hint of snow.  And/or possibly a form of
interference that looks similar to snow, like FM.

This diplexor isn't much of a filter.  Channel 8 still comes in
perfectly, chan 10 and 12 have a little snow but are still pretty
good.  The VHF-LO analogs are still there but very snowy.  I didn't
check digital chan 4.

nybbler> Any chance that Qualcomm is broadcasting on channel 55 in your area?
nybbler> That's another possible source of intermod products.

The web says they are putting out 50,000 Watts ERP.  What's the deal?
I thought they had to wait until 2009?

Tower Guy> Difficult FM interference may take two FM traps. Channel 54 is
Tower Guy> the 7th harmonic of 101.5 through 102.3 and the 8th harmonic
Tower Guy> of 88.7 through 89.5.

So the 7th and 8th harmonics are strong enough to worry about?  If the 88-108
trap is also 20 dB minimum, then most of the FM band should be at least 80 dB
down.  I suspect that at some point the amount leaking in past the crappy
F connectors and the epoxy sealed back will be as much as an additional filter
would help.  The traps don't help with the common mode, hence the ferrite
sleeves.  No specs on those but the FM interference on chan 10 (visual, unlike
chan 6) went away.

I have 8 FM traps (4 of each).  Would it be worthwhile to try hooking up all
of them and running reception tests on the digitals?

My main goal is to get the digitals as reliable and error free as possible,
in preparation for the analogs going away.  Even a minor glitch on digital
can be far more disruptive than a little snow or a faint ghost on analog.
I don't have a spectrum analyser, and diagnostic info on the digitals is
extremely limited, so I'm trying to use the analogs to find clues.

Some of the digital channels are sensitive to the signal level, others are not.
This would make sense if it were the powerful stations vs the weak stations,
but that's not it.  Perhaps there is a clue here?
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post #6856 of 16297 Old 07-28-2007, 05:56 AM
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Quote:


The 88-108 trap is to knock down KBVM 88.3 FM which interferes
with channel 6 audio. More than one of these damages channel 6
too much.


zip: 97005
antennas: Winegard PR-8800 and YA-1713
coax: Philips RG6 quad shield
diplexor: Picomacom UVSJ

you are 4 miles from the towers with a pr8800 and ya1713. are the antenna web results correct?

* yellow - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 47° 3.8 40
* yellow - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 33° 3.4 48
* yellow - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 36° 3.5 46
* yellow - uhf KNMT-DT 45.1 TBN PORTLAND OR 47° 3.9 45
* yellow - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 47° 3.8 43
* yellow - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 47° 3.9 33
* yellow - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 36° 3.5 27
* yellow - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 36° 3.5 30
* yellow - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 ION SALEM OR 47° 3.9 4
* red - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 184° 63.1 39

is fm really an issue at your home? you are using a uhf and ch7-13 antenna somewhat oversized for 4 miles and has minimal gain under 98 mhz (FM).

you need to determine which channels in your market you wish to receive ...analog/digital or both and start from scratch in your setup...ie. antenna choice, simplify your wiring setup, move the antenna outside and go from there.

you mention analog channels. you have analog VHF ch 2,6,7,8,10,12 in the mix. ch6??? the ya 1713 is not used for ch 2 and does not have appropriate gain for 6 and should not be used as a determining factor for your reception success on ch 6.

Time to step back and determine what you want to receive and design the system appropriately around that one step at a time.

your current setup is geared for ch 7-69. If you desire ch2-69 you may be better off with a combo vhf/uhf antenna like winegard hd7082P installed outside for example. But in 2009 you are only going to need uhf.
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post #6857 of 16297 Old 07-28-2007, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad2 View Post

Am I barking up the right tree? Or it it something else (not IMD) that is
creating the diagonal lines?

I don't know if IM distortion has an identifiable "signature" like say a ground loop or FM would have, but I can tell you that my LP locals have always looked crappy. They even tend to look crappy on my local cable system. It could be something inherent to the transmission and therefore beyond your control. IF that's the case, then any other reception issues you are having are independent of what you are seeing from the LP station.
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post #6858 of 16297 Old 07-28-2007, 01:18 PM
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> you are 4 miles from the towers with a pr8800 and ya1713.
> are the antenna web results correct?

> * yellow - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 47DEG 3.8 40
> * yellow - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 33DEG 3.4 48
> * yellow - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 36DEG 3.5 46
> * yellow - uhf KNMT-DT 45.1 TBN PORTLAND OR 47DEG 3.9 45
> * yellow - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 47DEG 3.8 43
> * yellow - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 47DEG 3.9 33
> * yellow - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 36DEG 3.5 27
> * yellow - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 36DEG 3.5 30
> * yellow - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 ION SALEM OR 47DEG 3.9 4
> * red - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 184DEG 63.1 39

That looks about right. I am not trying to get KOAC Corvallis,
since I have KOPB on 10 NTSC & 27 ATSC.

> you mention analog channels. you have analog ch 2,6,7,8,10,12
> in the mix. ch6??? the ya 1713 is not used for ch 2 or 6.

Yes, I know that the YA-1713 is VHF-HI. Our VHF-LO stations
are supposed to go away in 2009 and the YA-1713 has better
specs than a VHF 2-13 antenna.

The YA-1713 does okay on VHF-LO, not as good as on VHF-HI
but good enough to get by for a couple years. Even the low
power channel 4 comes in pretty well. If I only split 4 ways
channel 4 is still reported as 100% signal strength from
the digital tuner, with signal quality of 75%. Sometimes
it is received perfectly, although usually it drops a few
packets per hour. Channel 4 is supposed to move to channel 22
in 2009.

> But in 2009 you are only going to need uhf.

8 10 and 12 are currently analog, but will become digital in
2009. The VHF-LO analogs (2,5,6) go away in 2009. Channel 4
moves to channel 22 in 2009. So I will need VHF-HI and UHF.
So I bought the YA-1713 and PR-8800.

> move the antenna outside

Yes, I would probably get a better signal with the antennas
outside... until the next wind storm. High gain antennas
less than 5 miles from the towers looking through wood ought
to work okay. And for some stations they do. I chose highly
directional antennas to reduce multipath.

> is fm really an issue? you are using a uhf and ch7-13 antenna
> that has minimal gain under 98 mhz.

Adding the 1st 95-108 trap helped. Adding the second one
helped more. Adding the 88-108 trap knocked KBVM 88.3 FM
down enough that I can listen to the audio on channel 6 NTSC
without having KBVM superimposed on top of it. Adding
the ferrite sleeves appears to have reduced common mode FM
that messed up the picture on chan 10 NTSC. Like this:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interfer...nofmfilter.jpg

The most problematic station is 33, it is 750 KW and is supposed
to remain at channel 33 after 2009. It usually drops packets and
always has decoding errors. The Cascade2 demodulator reports
100% signal strength and 95% signal quality. This is the best
reported signal quality of any station, but it has the worst
actual reception. (Actual reception meaning decoding errors.)
The reported signal quality does change with signal level.
If 33's signal strength is reduced to 75%, quality goes down to 55.
As opposed to channel 27 which reports a quality of 55-65%
regardless of signal strength.
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post #6859 of 16297 Old 07-29-2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad2 View Post

The most problematic station is 33, it is 750 KW and is supposed
to remain at channel 33 after 2009. It usually drops packets and
always has decoding errors.

Is there a pattern to the errors on channel 33?

Do they occur more on windy days? (possible tree issue)
Can you time them with a stopwatch? (possible datastream problem)
Is it more likely to occur on a hot or cold day? (possible antenna beam tilt at the station)
Is there an airplane in the path when the pixelization occurs? (You are aimed toward the airport)

If you notice any of these trends it may suggest a solution.
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Konrad

you should consider a more "commercial quality" notch filter made to order from here.

http://www.cefilter.com

much deeper and tighter notch and really not that expensive. The filter can be tuned tighter at the company above so not to affect ch 6 as much if you explain the sitation to the technician.

suggest both a 50db notch full band barrel style fm filter and a filter tuned to 88.3 mhz (if the fm band filter does not do the job).

another option...try a tri shield rg-6 coax instead of quad shield. slightly better shielding for signal ingress. Like Belden 7915A with foil tape, 80% braid, and an outer layer of foil.

https://www.tselectronic.com/belden/...6cb10b50b3bf1d

I am not a big fan of the PR8800 UHF expecially with trees and troublsome reception. Think there is room for improvement in that area too.
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Tower Guy> Is there a pattern to the errors on channel 33?

Not that I have noticed. I've mostly looked for patterns (temp,
street traffic, wind, time of day, ...) with KOPB 27, since reception
quality varies a lot on 27. 33 is always bad.

The only correlation I've found is with the show itself. If I have
bad reception of a show and they (OPB) rerun the show later that day, or
the next day, or 2 months later, it is likely to have a reception problem.
Which might make sense if they were transmitting exactly the same bits
each time, but sometimes their decoder goes out to lunch and I get a
black screen (except for the station logo) for a moment, And then when
it reruns I don't get the black screen, so they are obviously
decoding/encoding the show each time. But I usually get a reception
problem (at a different time within the program) every time for a
particular show. Strange.

Tower Guy> Do they occur more on windy days? (possible tree issue)

I've tried to figure this out, but wind is such a localized thing
that data from the airports probably isn't that useful. It doesn't
take much wind to move leaves around. There are a few trees in the way,
other than that I have a clear view of the transmitting towers.

Tower Guy> Can you time them with a stopwatch? (possible datastream problem)

What do you mean by "datastream problem"? Who needs a stopwatch when you
have software decoders that tell you the time down to 0.1 second and even the
exact frame number?

chan 33 2007_04_08 beginning at 4:55am

frame=23844 q=0.0 size= 2791875kB time=794.9 bitrate=28770.6kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=36390 q=0.0 size= 4262109kB time=1213.6 bitrate=28770.7kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=37394 q=0.0 size= 4379766kB time=1247.1 bitrate=28770.6kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=61876 q=0.0 size= 7249570kB time=2064.2 bitrate=28770.8kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=63385 q=0.0 size= 7425586kB time=2114.3 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=64027 q=0.0 size= 7500820kB time=2135.7 bitrate=28771.1kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=92725 q=0.0 size=10863867kB time=3093.3 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=92920 q=0.0 size=10886719kB time=3099.8 bitrate=28771.1kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=92936 q=0.0 size=10888594kB time=3100.3 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=93513 q=0.0 size=10956445kB time=3119.6 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=118002 q=0.0 size=13826016kB time=3936.7 bitrate=28771.2kbits/s dup=22 drop=0
frame=126502 q=0.0 size=14822109kB time=4220.3 bitrate=28771.2kbits/s dup=22 drop=0

chan 33 2007_05_03 beginning at 10:55pm

frame= 5200 q=0.0 size= 607031kB time=172.9 bitrate=28767.2kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=14124 q=0.0 size= 1653281kB time=470.8 bitrate=28770.3kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=14275 q=0.0 size= 1670625kB time=475.7 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=15923 q=0.0 size= 1863633kB time=530.7 bitrate=28769.8kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=36691 q=0.0 size= 4297500kB time=1223.6 bitrate=28770.6kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=38280 q=0.0 size= 4483828kB time=1276.7 bitrate=28770.6kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=39136 q=0.0 size= 4584023kB time=1305.2 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=62977 q=0.0 size= 7378008kB time=2100.7 bitrate=28771.2kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=65166 q=0.0 size= 7634297kB time=2173.7 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=67253 q=0.0 size= 7878984kB time=2243.4 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=68886 q=0.0 size= 8070234kB time=2297.9 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=69074 q=0.0 size= 8092734kB time=2304.3 bitrate=28771.0kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=69136 q=0.0 size= 8099648kB time=2306.2 bitrate=28771.2kbits/s dup=33 drop=0
frame=72560 q=0.0 size= 8500781kB time=2420.4 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=33 drop=0

> Is it more likely to occur on a hot or cold day? (possible antenna beam tilt at the station)

Not that I have noticed. I'll check the next time we have an especially hot or cold day.
I had both perfect and horrible reception of KOPB 27 during a recent hot spell.

> Is there an airplane in the path when the pixelization occurs? (You are aimed toward the airport)

Airplanes are far enough away that I rarely hear them outdoors, much less indoors.
Wouldn't airplanes affect all the stations about the same, given that the transmitting
towers are all clumped together?

KATU 43 comes in perfectly recently, as does KPDX 48 and KPTV 30. KOPB 27 usually
comes in perfectly lately, but occasionally it is quite bad.

I've looked for a correlation with street traffic (some people have trouble with
trucks, busses, ... ), but haven't found one.
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I purchased a Winegard HD7084P last year for 2 reasons. 1 to move my antenna outside and 2 for a combo antenna because some of my channels will revert back to 5 and 13 in 2009. I currently have a Channel Master CM 4228 in the attic. I get dropouts at times.

Well, I started the installation today. It is about 40 ft. above ground level. Making small adjustments to the direction it is pointing, I was able to get 90 on some channels and 0 to 17 on others. My current attic antenna (CM 4228) gets all channels with a reading of 70 - 90.

The channels that I want to receive are below. There is a 20 deg span at a range that varies from 10.3 to 18.3 miles.

Is the pickup beam on the HD7084P too narrow for my purposes? Please help! I'm getting discouraged.

Cable run to each TV is approximately 150 ft.



Antenna Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Miles Frequen cy
yellow - uhf WPTY-DT 24.1 ABC MEMPHIS TN 163° 10.3 25
yellow - uhf WKNO-DT 10.1 PBS MEMPHIS TN 178° 18.3 29
yellow - uhf WPXX-DT 50.1 MNT MEMPHIS TN 176° 14.4 51
yellow - uhf WLMT-DT 30.1 CW MEMPHIS TN 163° 10.3 31
yellow - uhf WREG-DT 3.1 CBS MEMPHIS TN 180° 16.4 28
yellow - uhf WMC-DT 5.1 NBC MEMPHIS TN 163° 10.3 52
yellow - uhf WHBQ-DT 13.1 FOX MEMPHIS TN 183° 16.9 53
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hdtvlvr - With a long cable run ("each TV"? You have it split to several?), maybe a preamp would make a difference for you. Just a guess.
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I have D* (HD Tivo) and I am combining the OTA signal to the dish signal.
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post #6865 of 16297 Old 07-29-2007, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvluvr View Post

I purchased a Winegard HD7084P last year for 2 reasons. 1 to move my antenna outside and 2 for a combo antenna because some of my channels will revert back to 5 and 13 in 2009. I currently have a Channel Master CM 4228 in the attic. I get dropouts at times.

Well, I started the installation today. It is about 40 ft. above ground level. Making small adjustments to the direction it is pointing, I was able to get 90 on some channels and 0 to 17 on others. My current attic antenna (CM 4228) gets all channels with a reading of 70 - 90.

The channels that I want to receive are below. There is a 20 deg span at a range that varies from 10.3 to 18.3 miles.
Is the pickup beam on the HD7084P too narrow for my purposes? Please help! I'm getting discouraged.
Cable run to each TV is approximately 150 ft.

Looking at the spec sheet for the HD7084P, the beam pattern does get narrow at the higher UHF channels and you have three stations at UHF 51 to 53. Any particular for choosing a long range antenna such as the HD7084P rather than the medium range HD7080P?

But your 150' cable run suggests you need a pre-amp. If you are running it through a diplexer, then you will have to place the power supply for the pre-amp ahead of the diplexer.

The CM 4228 should be fine for getting WHBQ-DT Fox 13 when it switches to VHF 13. WMC-DT NBC 5 is shown as in the FCC 1st/2nd round selection as going to VHF 5. But since you already have a good antenna, I would have recommended that you wait until it is confirmed by the final round of channel selections that WMC-DT will end up on VHF 5. The FCC is still working it's way to the final post transition digital channel assignments. You could have put up a full VHF/UHF antenna next year if WMC-DT was shown as still switching to VHF 5.
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post #6866 of 16297 Old 07-30-2007, 05:57 AM
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I thought I might as well get the biggest possible. However, it may be too directional (I didn't think about that). Would the medium range work (beam pattern wide enough)?

The antenna cable is connected to a 5X8 D* switch so the signal is injected in with the satellite signal and routed to the TV's. It won't be a problem to add the power supply. Is the pre-amp water proof and can go outside? Which pre-amp.

With the CM 4228, I get pixelation and dropouts at times. I was hoping to improve the signal by moving it outside and add VHF ability at the same time. Maybe I just need a pre-amp on the 4228 (until the FCC decides on 5)? I just realized that there is about 120 ft. of cable for the CM 4228 antenna.
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The hd7084P should work fine and be more than enough antenna for the stations you describe in your market at your distances of around 10-12 miles.

I install a ton of the hd7084p's here in a market where the towers are around 20 degrees apart with stations on chs 47,54,56, and 68. if some of the station patterns are on the "funky side" at your home, you may need to compromise some and aim a tadd towards the weaker signal.

your issue may actually center around your use of diplexing and the longer runs of 150' and would not loose hope just yet.

I suggest the winegard hdp269 preamp for your distances from the towers. this amp should be enough to offset the line losses in your setup. you may need more gain tough to tell from here but the hdp 269 is a good start.

if the amp does not correct the situation you may need to think about running a separate line for off air. diplexed setups can be troublesome.

if at the end you are still not satisified you could use the hd7084p for vhf/fm and combine the cm4228 for uhf. this situation would offer the best of both worlds. you would combine the signals from each antenna with a cm 0549 vhf/uhf combiner then amplify the signal off the cm 0549 with the hdp269 preamp.

another thing to look at. the hd7084p. make sure the circuit board in the plastic housing is properly installed with the board properly seated and making adequate contact with the antenna elements. look out for shorting/touching, make sure the contacts are far enough apart, and at the same time make sure the 2 antenna elements are making adequate contact with the circuit board. if not you may need to bend the elements sightly till they do. I see this issue many times during service calls.

I would first purchase the hdp 269 preamp and wire the amp into your system and see what happens. if still not satisfied, you may need to take a look at your wiring setup. then explore the possibility of combining both antennas. fyi...for example, you could leave the cm4228 in the attic and the hd7084p outside run coax from the hd7084p inside and combine everything in the attic close to the cm4228 and integrate into your current setup. or you can install the cm4228 and hd 7084 on the same mast or separate ones outside.

you have plenty of options.

from my experiences, the hd7084p should be awesome and much more than enough antenna at your distances from the towers unless

-the elements are shorted in the plastic housing
-you are expriencing signal blockage from local geography or other factors
-inadequate wiring and signal distribution setup
-losses associated with diplexing and splitting

if you are experiencing loss of signal in the uhf channel range, losses from diplexing, splitting , and long cable runs can be the issue. adding an amp may be the bandaid and redesigning the setup may be better in the long run.

you have runs over 120' plus diplexing which adds even more losses.

150' = ~9 db loss ...then add the losses associated with diplexing and splitting. I bet the situation will improve tremendously if you clean up your wiring and signal distribution setup.
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post #6868 of 16297 Old 07-30-2007, 07:59 AM
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<<if the amp does not correct the situation you may need to think about running a separate line for off air. diplexed setups can be troublesome. >>

Are you suggesting a simple splitter?

>>if at the end you are still not satisified you could use the hd7084p for vhf/fm and combine the cm4228 for uhf. this situation would offer the best of both worlds.<<

The antennas are at opposite ends of the house and the cable run to combine them would be impossible.

>>another thing to look at. the hd7084p. make sure the circuit board in the plastic housing is properly installed with the board properly seated and making adequate contact with the antenna elements. look out for shorting/touching, make sure the contacts are far enough apart, and at the same time make sure the 2 antenna elements are making adequate contact with the circuit board. if not you may need to bend the elements sightly till they do. I see this issue many times during service calls.<<

Well, the antenna is now about 40 ft. off the ground on a telescopic mast. It was very hard to put up and now I may have to take it down to check the connections??? I wish there had been something in the instructions regarding this. What could be shorting/touching?

With the windload and the mast type / location, I don't think I can put the 4228 on the mast.

Regarding the winegard hdp269, I guess I should try it on the attic mounted 4228 first and see if that improves the UHF channels. If so, I can attempt to get 5 (VHF) if it reverts back to VHF later.

I could move both antenna's into the attic space over another part of the house, and combine them. How would I remove the UHF portion of the wingard? Part of the UHF elements are on the main antenna and the rest are on the added extension. Putting them in that part of the attic would still give me about the same length of cable runs.

I sure thought this would be easier.
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post #6869 of 16297 Old 07-30-2007, 08:47 AM
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Quote:


if the amp does not correct the situation you may need to think about running a separate line for off air. diplexed setups can be troublesome. >>

Are you suggesting a simple splitter?

I am suggesting removing the off air distribution away from diplexing with satellite. separate lines with splitters...separate from satellite.




Quote:


if at the end you are still not satisified you could use the hd7084p for vhf/fm and combine the cm4228 for uhf. this situation would offer the best of both worlds.

The antennas are at opposite ends of the house and the cable run to combine them would be impossible.

just run a coax from the hd7084p inside to the where the cm 4228 is and combine from there if you decide to. 2 hdp 269's would be suggested. 1 to amplify the vhf off the hd7084p and one for the cm4228. (you may not need to amplify the vhf since the losses per foot on vhf are much less than uhf over the longer distances and splitting)


Quote:


Regarding the winegard hdp269, I guess I should try it on the attic mounted 4228 first and see if that improves the UHF channels. If so, I can attempt to get 5 (VHF) if it reverts back to VHF later.

I could move both antenna's into the attic space over another part of the house, and combine them. How would I remove the UHF portion of the wingard? Part of the UHF elements are on the main antenna and the rest are on the added extension. Putting them in that part of the attic would still give me about the same length of cable runs.

you would not remove the uhf portion of the hd7084p but leave the hd7084p intact. see pic.

the cm0549 vhf/uhf combiner will isolate the vhf and uhf signals enough and not create any issues. I combine a hd8200p for vhf/fm with a 91xg for uhf at my home for example using the hdp 269 preamp and cm0549. I have directv and do not diplex the sat with off air and instead distribute the off air signal separately at least 12 times around the home with no problems.

the entire installation may seem like a pain in the ass at first...but once completed satisafactorily you should receive great service for many years. as simple as off air seems, some installs can be a challenge for "do it yourselfers" if the coditions are not cut and dry.
LL
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post #6870 of 16297 Old 07-30-2007, 09:11 AM
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I have a quick couple of questions. I need to install an amp and rotor with my CM4228. The questions I have is where is the best place to mount the amp with a rotor? Should I put the amp before or after the rotor? Also, what is the best way to deal with dressing the RG-6 so it doesn't come loose from the constant twisting when the antenna spins? Thanks

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