The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 279 - AVS Forum
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post #8341 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 06:17 AM
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obeldobs

Yes, go with the 4228 (you may not need the pre-amp), and if you need it, get a separate high band VHF with a UHF/VHF combiner.
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post #8342 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiSmuggs View Post

obeldobs

Yes, go with the 4228 (you may not need the pre-amp), and if you need it, get a separate high band VHF with a UHF/VHF combiner.

The 4228 is an "excellent" deep fringe antenna. It's just think it's too big(tall) when you need to also consider VHF reception. I think a good combo Winegard antenna should work fine in Manassas as long as your signal levels are -85dBm or better.(Check TV fool with exact coordinates) If you do need to go with separates,(-100dBm or better) the 91-xg is much easier to stack with a high band VHF on the same mast. You need "at least" 3-4 feet between 2 antennas so they don't interact with each other. The 4228 is 3 feet tall, so you probably would need at least 15 feet of mast by the time you get the antenna on the bottom 5 feet off the roof.(Guy wires????) I would say try without the amp first, but it sounds like you are using more than 1 TV, so you will probably end up needing one for distributon needs.
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post #8343 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 09:32 AM
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I think I'm just going to try the 91XG, which will have a new balun in it, and see what that does. That will knock out two possibilities at once, and presumably give me more gain than what I had before.

Thanks,
Dave
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post #8344 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 09:53 AM
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Quick questions for antenna gurus: A Philips PHDTV3 Silver Sensor solved our reception issues in the living room, but now I need to put in a splitter and run some coax into the bedroom. The splitter is already on and the signal doesn't seem to have been hurt. For my purposes, I notice most store bought coax comes in 25 or 50-foot sizes.

So, my questions are:

a) How much signal loss would I expect with 25-foot vs 50-foot?

b) Am I going to need some sort of amplifier?

c) WTF is Quad-Shield? Is that better or just smoke n mirrors?
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post #8345 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Antennas Direct’s Clearstream2 Antenna Available for Pre-Order

St. Louis-based antennas maker Antennas Direct announced its new, ultra-efficient, compact, digital TV antenna, ClearStream2, will arrive June 30. Orders are being taken now.

ClearStream2 is Antennas Direct’s latest model of digital TV antennas, which are optimized specifically for the 2009 digital conversion.

“The ClearStream2, which is the first in a series of ClearStream DTV antennas, is unmatched in size and performance,” said Antennas Direct President Richard Schneider. “Demand for ClearStream2 is high because of its strength, reliability and small form.”

The first DTV antenna created with the latest simulation software and test equipment, the ClearStream2 is designed to receive digital, over-the-air broadcasts, with a range up to 50 miles. Its wide, 70-degree beam width allows it to capture signal from towers spaced far apart, and its patented, tapered-loop design is 50 percent smaller than previous models.

continued...

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/495599.html


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post #8346 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post

.


Goodness thats one UGLY antenna. :P

On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.

Just thinking out loud.

John
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post #8347 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 03:32 PM
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Newbie to antennas. I just built a Single Bay Hoverman Antenna, and the results are great. Anyone else have excellent success with one? Im curious how it compares to the commercial antennas. Im also curious if its worth building a Double Bay. Will a Double Bay get channels further away or just improve the signal?
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post #8348 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spydermonkey311 View Post

Newbie to antennas. I just built a Single Bay Hoverman Antenna, and the results are great. Anyone else have excellent success with one? Im curious how it compares to the commercial antennas. Im also curious if its worth building a Double Bay. Will a Double Bay get channels further away or just improve the signal?

Yep, I built a DBGH, the results are great. To get an idea of its performance relative to other antennas, look in the official Gray Hoverman thread for charts (read about 13 pages back): http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...210#post759210

And then look at Ken Nists charts, "Comparing some commercially available antennas" : http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...210#post759210
and then compare the data. Keep in mind after February, all channels over 52 disappear.
As far as a DBGH for you, it depends on your location if you need it or not. Check TVFool.com.


And a picture of mine :

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post #8349 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fajitamosaic View Post

Quick questions for antenna gurus: A Philips PHDTV3 Silver Sensor solved our reception issues in the living room, but now I need to put in a splitter and run some coax into the bedroom. The splitter is already on and the signal doesn't seem to have been hurt. For my purposes, I notice most store bought coax comes in 25 or 50-foot sizes.

So, my questions are:

a) How much signal loss would I expect with 25-foot vs 50-foot?

b) Am I going to need some sort of amplifier?

c) WTF is Quad-Shield? Is that better or just smoke n mirrors?

a) about 1db every 18 feet. Keep in mind, youre losing about 3 db with that splitter. (3db is cutting your signal in half)

b) Maybe, with that splitter, youre losing 4.5 db total. Maybe you should consider 2 separate Silver Sensors instead.

c) RG6 is shielded with a layer of foil and braid. Quad shield is foil, braid, foil and braid again. Its overkill unless youre in a very electrically noisy environment. Buy good quality plain RG6. Dont buy the older RG59.
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post #8350 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnied View Post

Goodness thats one UGLY antenna. :P

On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.

Just thinking out loud.

John


Heh, it was probably designed for motorhomes whose owners are big NASCAR fans of car #8 (or buy 2 for#88).

I bet its just stacked uhf loops with a preamplifier. Up to 50 miles ? Yeah sure, during a good troposphere event.
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post #8351 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post

.

Demand for ClearStream2 is high because of its strength, reliability and small form.


How does an new model of antenna that is only in the pre-order stage already have a reputation for reliability?
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post #8352 of 16294 Old 06-17-2008, 10:59 PM
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Well, maybe it doesnt even have an amplifier in it. Two small steel hoops and a piece of fencing and a metal pole IS pretty strong, reliable and small .


They could also claim its non-allergeric.
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post #8353 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnied View Post

On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.

I bet it's not; I bet what you see is what you get. It's similar to a biquad design (common at 2.4Ghz) but with round loops instead of squares. A biquad has pretty narrow bandwidth, maybe the fancy tapered loops increase it... or maybe they don't and their "patent" is a design patent.
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post #8354 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 03:18 PM
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I thought I was so smart. Bought a CM 4228 over a year ago at Fry's when they had a sale (great price, it has practically doubled now), figuring all post 2/09 freqs would be UHF. For the interim I joined it with two short lengths of RG6 to a UHF/VHF medium-rating Radio Shack antenna and folded down the UHF Yagi-part of it, to get adequate VHF analog. It works ok, but there's a little ghosting and reflections on some lower channels. There probably would be some anyway as there are trees and structures in the signal path.

Now, I see with the new assignments posted by Falcon that 4 LA area stations will be in the 7-13 band. I am wondering if I can tweak my CM 4228 to perform a little better in the 7-13 range using the two baluns and RG6 fix that has been posted here. Are there any other, better modifications that could easily be made on a CM 4228?
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post #8355 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 03:37 PM
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We spend some time in a small 1-story condo in Holtsville when we visit family on Long Island ... not enough time to make subscribing to cable or satellite cost effective. Any advice on indoor or outdoor antenna that will work with a HDTV converter?
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post #8356 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrow2 View Post

I thought I was so smart. Bought a CM 4228 over a year ago at Fry's when they had a sale (great price, it has practically doubled now), figuring all post 2/09 freqs would be UHF. For the interim I joined it with two short lengths of RG6 to a UHF/VHF medium-rating Radio Shack antenna and folded down the UHF Yagi-part of it, to get adequate VHF analog. It works ok, but there's a little ghosting and reflections on some lower channels. There probably would be some anyway as there are trees and structures in the signal path.

Now, I see with the new assignments posted by Falcon that 4 LA area stations will be in the 7-13 band. I am wondering if I can tweak my CM 4228 to perform a little better in the 7-13 range using the two baluns and RG6 fix that has been posted here. Are there any other, better modifications that could easily be made on a CM 4228?

What vhf-hi stations will you have ? Check here to see the performance of the 4228 on vhf-hi (middle of page) : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
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post #8357 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sometimesonli View Post

We spend some time in a small 1-story condo in Holtsville when we visit family on Long Island ... not enough time to make subscribing to cable or satellite cost effective. Any advice on indoor or outdoor antenna that will work with a HDTV converter?

Any antenna that works with HDTV will work with the converters. What's more important is getting an antenna that works where it is used. Go to antennaweb.org and tvfool.com, input the address of the condo, look at the results for Digital, then give us the results so we can help.
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post #8358 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

What vhf-hi stations will you have ? Check here to see the performance of the 4228 on vhf-hi (middle of page) : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

LA area will have same upper VHF in DTV as with analog at present: 7, 9, 11, 13. I see a significant drop off below ch 9 on the chart for 4228, was wondering if I performed the coax & balun crossover + wire the two halves of the reflector together, if that would tweak the VHF performance a bit. i.e. would it be worth the trouble? I've read some of the earlier 4228 tweaking posts and the verdict seems somewhat positive but perhaps optimistically so. i.e. I'm not sure how much is wishful thinking. I would need ch 7 as it is the ABC owned and operated station here.
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post #8359 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrow2 View Post

Now, I see with the new assignments posted by Falcon that 4 LA area stations will be in the 7-13 band. I am wondering if I can tweak my CM 4228 to perform a little better in the 7-13 range using the two baluns and RG6 fix that has been posted here. Are there any other, better modifications that could easily be made on a CM 4228?

With the screens joined together with wire I'm able to clearly receive analog channel 8 from 70 miles.

YMMV.

In my area there will be channel 12 digital, as of now analog 12 from the same distance isn't always watchable, so it will be interesting to see what happens in 2/09.
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post #8360 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 07:31 PM
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Channel Master 4221 or Winegard 4400?

29438

All my channels are North-East at 55 +/-1 degrees and 45 miles out. Flatland, and a large portion of ocean between me and the towers, rest is marsh and forest.

I also have a 2nd PBS UHF channel WJWJ broadcasting at 23 miles and 294 degrees(not quite in the opposite direction, flatland, over forest. This is pretty easy to get, Im picking it up with a DB2 plus CM7777 on the roof right now facing the North-East Tower cluster at 45 miles.

My primary PBS channel among the towers, WITV, at 45 miles NE, will be switching to VHF Ch. 7 come Feb09.

What say you?


edit: Im having the most trouble with Channel 4 WCIV (at real channel 34) and 36 WMMP (at real channel 35). Everything else is pretty stable with the DB2, at least to the point that either the CM4221 or Winegard 4400 will be fine for them.
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post #8361 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 07:32 PM
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LA area will have same upper VHF in DTV as with analog at present: 7, 9, 11, 13.

You have them very nicely spread there. I dont think any amount of tweaking is going to get you all of them. If you tweak for one, the others will suffer. Your best bet is to get a VHF-HI only antenna and couple it to the CM4228. I think Winegard sells a VHF-Hi only antenna, and they arent the monster size that all-channel antennas are.
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post #8362 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

You have them very nicely spread there. I dont think any amount of tweaking is going to get you all of them. If you tweak for one, the others will suffer. Your best bet is to get a VHF-HI only antenna and couple it to the CM4228. I think Winegard sells a VHF-Hi only antenna, and they arent the monster size that all-channel antennas are.

OK this is interesting to me. What's involved? Right now I'm doing it with my old RS UHF/VHF with front end yagi. I closed down the yagi elements and ran the two into a combiner (which looks much like a splitter to me) then a single RG6 down to my attic where the signal is boosted and divided to different rooms. My reception is not perfect but it's pretty good. My UHF is generally pretty strong though I've had an issue with KCET 59 signal strength. Some tweaking today seemed to help. I'll do some experimenting without my old VHF RS antenna paired to the CM4228 and see how 7 & 9 VHF look with it, first.

Also one of the posts said VHF is helped somewhat by binding the two screens on the 4228 (mine has two, not one). Somehow I had the sense to do this with insulated #22 wire back when I installed the antenna, before anyone suggested it. But should these halves be bound with bare copper wire or simply nylon straps? Wouldn't it be better to assure contact with bare wires? I only bound at the top and bottom, am now guessing that several attachments would be better.
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post #8363 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrow2 View Post

Also one of the posts said VHF is helped somewhat by binding the two screens on the 4228 (mine has two, not one). Somehow I had the sense to do this with insulated #22 wire back when I installed the antenna, before anyone suggested it. But should these halves be bound with bare copper wire or simply nylon straps? Wouldn't it be better to assure contact with bare wires? I only bound at the top and bottom, am now guessing that several attachments would be better.

The 4228 will work best on VHF-hi with the screens bound together. If the screens are seperate they are not large enough to work as a reflector on all VHF-HI channels.

Bind the 2 reflectors together as best you can so that you can be sure that they are acting as 1.

Even with this mod the 4228 is only a limited VHF-hi antenna on most VHF-HI channels at best.
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post #8364 of 16294 Old 06-18-2008, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnied View Post

Goodness thats one UGLY antenna. :P

On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.

Just thinking out loud.

John

Ugly?? That's new age digital beauty, my friend!

Why don't you buy one, have it X-Rayed, and post the pics here?

Knowledge is Power. Trust but Verify.
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post #8365 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

Your best bet is to get a VHF-HI only antenna and couple it to the CM4228. I think Winegard sells a VHF-Hi only antenna, and they arent the monster size that all-channel antennas are.

I believe you're probably referring to their high VHF yagi, the YA1713. Strictly for high VHF (7-13) gain it's one of the best out there, and only about $40. And having four high VHF stations (7, 9, 11, 13), I wouldn't skimp and hope the CM4228 could pull in a marginal picture. If there was one station that was not often watched, maybe. But if these are where four channels are, I'd want to make sure that was well-covered. For fringe reception to this market, a combination of a YA-1713 and something like a 91XG or CM4228 would likely be the better option than an all-in-one monster VHF/UHF antenna.
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post #8366 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 09:55 AM
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Yesterday, a Winegard 7084P antenna with a Winegard 8780 pre-amplifier was installed on the roof (attached to the chimney). The antenna is approx 30 feet from the ground. It is attached to a rotor.

RG-6 coax is run along the outside of the house and then into the basement. The coax run is approx 40 feet where the feed is split into a four-way splitter. The longest indoor coax run is also about 40 feet from the basement to the top floor. (We cut the cable company's internal distribution system and utilized it for the antenna feed). The splitter only feeds 3 televisions. I also plan to split the signal again at two of the televisions to feed FM receivers.

The signal strength is much improved. Reception includes almost all of the stations identified from TV Fool for my location just west of Reading, PA. However, several stations from the Philly market have intermittent reception. Several other stations from that same area are at 100% signal strength (any time of day) according to the Channelmaster 7000 D2A converter box. In addition, channels from Scranton, PA are coming in at between 30 and 50% signal strength.

Should I add a distribution amplifier? Thanks for your advice. Please let me know if you need more info or need me to be more specific.
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post #8367 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post

I believe you're probably referring to their high VHF yagi, the YA1713. Strictly for high VHF (7-13) gain it's one of the best out there, and only about $40. And having four high VHF stations (7, 9, 11, 13), I wouldn't skimp and hope the CM4228 could pull in a marginal picture. If there was one station that was not often watched, maybe. But if these are where four channels are, I'd want to make sure that was well-covered. For fringe reception to this market, a combination of a YA-1713 and something like a 91XG or CM4228 would likely be the better option than an all-in-one monster VHF/UHF antenna.

Well I have the 4228 now, would like to not overspend. Maybe in the future and also in a couple years' time there will be lots of upper VHF /UHF low/mid band antennas i.e. some new incarnations, might make sense to wait til then. Meanwhile one reason not to replace 4228 with a 91XG is that my transmitters are situated a few degrees from one another and Ch 50 (OC PBS - an important one) is in the same general direction too, but not exactly the same. Therefore a slightly less directional antenna like 4228 (15° spread) might be more forgiving than the more directional but superior 91XG. If I need an add-on, it would only be for 7 and 9. Looking at the ChannelMaster site, I see a new model (#2016) specifically for ch 7-51 and it's a medium sized Yagi with a VHF dipole sticking out from the rear! I guess I need to figure a way to combine a simple dipole tuned to ch 7 & 9 and link it to the CM 4228 without adding any unwanted reflections or artifacts i.e. competing signals.

Any special tricks to combining two antennas with different ranges? Use a combiner-splitter and coax with baluns? Any special attention paid to cable lengths? I am in N. Orange County, S of L.A., in Brea-E.Fullerton area.
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post #8368 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 11:53 AM
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Tommy,
Before adding a dist amp, you have a few loose ends to attend to. The first is the unterminated feed out of the 4-way splitter. This causes reflections within your line, your own multi-path signal source, and that's how a 100% signal may not come in.

Next, see if all those splits is the problem. Each pair costs 3-4dB, and the quad is 6-8dB. Run a single, unsplit line to your closest TV and see if reception issues go away. If so, a distribution amp at the quad splitter location should take care of you.

But first, terminate those open lines!

Frank
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post #8369 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 12:39 PM
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Frank, I'm off to the Radio Shack. Their website says that they have RF terminators. Hope that they have them in the store.
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post #8370 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 12:39 PM
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Use a PICO USVJ-VHF/UHF combiner. They are excellent!!
Low loss(.05 db), filters out all out of band signals, and "very" cheap.($5.00 or less plus shipping on the internet). Differing cable lenghts won't be an issue. They are very versatile too. I use one to filter out strong VHF and FM from my system.
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