The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 280 - AVS Forum
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post #8371 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy63 View Post

Frank, I'm off to the Radio Shack. Their website says that they have RF terminators. Hope that they have them in the store.

You may want to call first. I had to go to 4 stores before finding them here. Most of the employees didn't even know what they are. An item # is very helpful with this one!!
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post #8372 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mrow2 View Post

Well I have the 4228 now, would like to not overspend. Maybe in the future and also in a couple years' time there will be lots of upper VHF /UHF low/mid band antennas i.e. some new incarnations, might make sense to wait til then. Meanwhile one reason not to replace 4228 with 91XG is that my transmitters are situated a few degrees from one another and Ch 50 (OC PBS - an important one) is in the same general direction too. Therefore a slightly less directional antenna like 4228 (15° spread) might be more forgiving than the highly directional but superior 91XG. If I need an add-on, it would only be for 7 and 9. Looking at the ChannelMaster site, I see a new model (#2016) specifically for ch 7-51 and it's a medium sized Yagi with a dipole sticking out from the rear! I guess I need to figure a way to combine a simple dipole tuned to ch 7 & 9 and link it to the CM 4228 without adding any unwanted reflections or artifacts i.e. competing signals.

Any special tricks to combining two antennas with different ranges? Use a combiner-splitter and coax with baluns? Any special attention paid to cable lengths?

It would help if you posted TVFool results...or provide your location.

If you are using a garden variety RF Splitter/Combiner, it has 3.5+ (++) dB insertion loss.

You should be using a UHF/VHF Combiner such as UVSJ, which has 0.5 dB loss:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
Each antenna connects to UVSJ via individual baluns. UVSJ output is coax to HDTV.
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post #8373 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 01:52 PM
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Well, just put up the Funke 1922. Did that make a huge difference.

Some photos of the DX'ing Rig.

 

The Monster.pdf 360.443359375k . file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf The Monster.pdf (360.4 KB, 5 views)
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post #8374 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 02:00 PM
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Thanks,

The reslts from tvfool show the future dgital station signals mostly green and in the right direction (west) for my unit, while the current analog signals are red and also in the west. It seems that an indoor antenna would be ok next year, but not this year.

antennaweb shows most analog stations in blue. there are only six digital stations, 2 yellow, 1 grren, 1 blue, 2 violet.

Not sure if that's what you need --- i saved all the results, so let me know what else.
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Originally Posted by SkiSmuggs View Post

Any antenna that works with HDTV will work with the converters. What's more important is getting an antenna that works where it is used. Go to antennaweb.org and tvfool.com, input the address of the condo, look at the results for Digital, then give us the results so we can help.

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post #8375 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 05:41 PM
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My location is North Orange County, S of L.A. County, in the Brea-E Fullerton area.
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post #8376 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 06:24 PM
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50 foot Rohn tower with a 10' mask. So, I would say the top is 55' tall.

Chad


Quote:
Originally Posted by n4yqt View Post

Nice set up. How high are the antennas?

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post #8377 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by PCTools View Post

Well, just put up the Funke 1922. Did that make a huge difference.

Some photos of the DX'ing Rig.

Nice! Thanks for the two referrals,they both bought.
The big tower is finished with the UHF ants on it.Can't seem to upload a pic here,but test area thinks it's small enough.Link...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041228
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post #8378 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 08:00 PM
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Greg,

Glad to see you have the system in the air. Looks good.

Had my fat installer put up your antenna yesterday. He may call you to buy five of these.

Swapped out the Winegard amp and put up a new CM7777. Could not tell any difference at all.

Chad

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Originally Posted by MAX HD View Post

Nice! Thanks for the two referrals,they both bought.
The big tower is finished with the UHF ants on it.Can't seem to upload a pic here,but test area thinks it's small enough.Link...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041228

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post #8379 of 16294 Old 06-19-2008, 08:43 PM
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Quote:


Also one of the posts said VHF is helped somewhat by binding the two screens on the 4228 (mine has two, not one). Somehow I had the sense to do this with insulated #22 wire back when I installed the antenna, before anyone suggested it. But should these halves be bound with bare copper wire or simply nylon straps? Wouldn't it be better to assure contact with bare wires? I only bound at the top and bottom, am now guessing that several attachments would be better.

Yes, bare copper wire, not insulated. The idea is to make the sections one big reflector electrically.

If you notice here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
channel 7 on the CM4228 may not be so good for you. Combining the YA1713 with it seems to be the best option.
Quote:


I guess I need to figure a way to combine a simple dipole tuned to ch 7 & 9 and link it to the CM 4228 without adding any unwanted reflections or artifacts i.e. competing signals.

The best thing for experimenting like that is to take apart an old set of rabbit ears, drill out the holes to fit the feed attachments on the uhf antenna, and experiment with various lengths and positions.

holl_ands:
Quote:


You should be using a UHF/VHF Combiner such as UVSJ, which has 0.5 dB loss:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
Each antenna connects to UVSJ via individual baluns. UVSJ output is coax to HDTV.

Any recommendations for separate vhf and uhf 300 ohm antennas to 75 ohm coax ?
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post #8380 of 16294 Old 06-20-2008, 02:51 PM
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I posted 300-ohm to 75-ohm transformer (aka Balun) loss info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13581150

Although some indoor Baluns performed somewhat better, for outdoor use,
the Channel Master that comes with CM4228 was better than the others I tested:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM3075
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm
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post #8381 of 16294 Old 06-20-2008, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy63 View Post

Yesterday, a Winegard 7084P antenna with a Winegard 8780 pre-amplifier was installed on the roof (attached to the chimney). The antenna is approx 30 feet from the ground. It is attached to a rotor.

RG-6 coax is run along the outside of the house and then into the basement. The coax run is approx 40 feet where the feed is split into a four-way splitter. The longest indoor coax run is also about 40 feet from the basement to the top floor. (We cut the cable company's internal distribution system and utilized it for the antenna feed). The splitter only feeds 3 televisions. I also plan to split the signal again at two of the televisions to feed FM receivers.

The signal strength is much improved. Reception includes almost all of the stations identified from TV Fool for my location just west of Reading, PA. However, several stations from the Philly market have intermittent reception. Several other stations from that same area are at 100% signal strength (any time of day) according to the Channelmaster 7000 D2A converter box. In addition, channels from Scranton, PA are coming in at between 30 and 50% signal strength.

Should I add a distribution amplifier? Thanks for your advice. Please let me know if you need more info or need me to be more specific.

I have some thoughts about this, as I've experimented a lot even though I have some of my own issues I've posted here. I would not waste this precious signal on two FM receivers. Each time you split, you diminish. This is way too much antenna for an FM set but it probably means putting up a separate omni-directional or directional (depending on your station locations) on the roof and running a sep. cable down so that you can distribute to those, if you must have all the FM stations. For any FM set that is high, maybe you can just use a simple indoor dipole. Alternatively, you can boost the signal and maybe this would be advisable. Investigate the boosters and decide which is best - antenna located or inside, guess both have some advantages. My booster has a variable gain control and I do recommend this since an over boosted signal can be noisy. I had splitters for my VCRs because I didn't want to fool with the TV/VCR switches on the units. But this weakened the signals to all the sets so there really is a price to be paid for that. I am gradually doing away with VCR splitters and trying to keep the signals going to TVs and converters only. i was able to visibly reduce noise by removing just one splitter, in one problem area.
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post #8382 of 16294 Old 06-20-2008, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

Use a PICO USVJ-VHF/UHF combiner. They are excellent!!
Low loss(.05 db), filters out all out of band signals, and "very" cheap.($5.00 or less plus shipping on the internet). Differing cable lenghts won't be an issue. They are very versatile too. I use one to filter out strong VHF and FM from my system.

OK I googled it and came up with this post. This is good info, where can I get them? Ok just found it (UVS) at SolidSignal. Will order one (it may in fact be what I've got up there now, so I'll have to look first. Also like the idea of having a couple extra CM baluns on hand. Also someone mentioned that a sep UHF/VHF antenna combined to the 4228 should have its UHF elements separated from the rest of the antenna. Guess I could saw it off. All this is temporary anyway, as I'll probably end up buying either a channel specific ant or the new Winegard 7-13 antenna for 40 bucks.
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post #8383 of 16294 Old 06-20-2008, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrow2 View Post

OK I googled it and came up with this post. This is good info, where can I get them? Ok just found it (UVS) at SolidSignal. Will order one (it may in fact be what I've got up there now, so I'll have to look first. Also like the idea of having a couple extra CM baluns on hand. Also someone mentioned that a sep UHF/VHF antenna combined to the 4228 should have its UHF elements separated from the rest of the antenna. Guess I could saw it off. All this is temporary anyway, as I'll probably end up buying either a channel specific ant or the new Winegard 7-13 antenna for 40 bucks.

WOOPS!! I meant "UVSJ", not "USVJ".

Glen
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post #8384 of 16294 Old 06-20-2008, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

I posted 300-ohm to 75-ohm transformer (aka Balun) loss info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13581150

Although some indoor Baluns performed somewhat better, for outdoor use,
the Channel Master that comes with CM4228 was better than the others I tested:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM3075
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

I have a channel master 4221 and decided Not to use the Balun that comes with it. It is the same Balun you mentioned.
The reason I'm using a different Balun is because the Balun that comes with the CM 4221 has long leads. Don't these leads act like "twin lead" antenna wire?
I have terrible multipath problems at my location in my attic, so I'm thinking the indoor Balun with short leads from our local cable co. would perform better.
Am I correct, or would you recommend I use the Balun supplied with my CM 4221?

Edit
After looking at your excel file: "Balun Loss Using TWC-SD Freqs RevC.xls"
I decided to use my RMS branded Balun (model # CA-2600F). It is a very fat one compared to most others, and has real short leads.
I also have a Sega Balun, which came with my Sega Master System, or Genesis.
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post #8385 of 16294 Old 06-20-2008, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

I posted 300-ohm to 75-ohm transformer (aka Balun) loss info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13581150

Although some indoor Baluns performed somewhat better, for outdoor use,
the Channel Master that comes with CM4228 was better than the others I tested:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM3075
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

Yeah, I had already seen that. I was wondering about a uhf/vhf 300 ohm input combiner with an integrated balun 75 ohm output. Is no such animal being sold now ?

I have an old Gemini uhf/vhf splitter that has 300 ohm outputs and 75 ohm in, that I was thinking to use in reverse after weatherizing it. I took it apart to see 2 small disc capacitors and the coils were etched into the pc board in a greek key type pattern, and a transformer to the 75 ohm in. (it also had 2 small resistors in it, but they were going to the 300 ohm FM output, which I wont use)
What do you think about its use ?
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post #8386 of 16294 Old 06-21-2008, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbov View Post

Tommy,
Before adding a dist amp, you have a few loose ends to attend to. The first is the unterminated feed out of the 4-way splitter. This causes reflections within your line, your own multi-path signal source, and that's how a 100% signal may not come in.

Next, see if all those splits is the problem. Each pair costs 3-4dB, and the quad is 6-8dB. Run a single, unsplit line to your closest TV and see if reception issues go away. If so, a distribution amp at the quad splitter location should take care of you.

But first, terminate those open lines!

Frank

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrow2 View Post

I have some thoughts about this, as I've experimented a lot even though I have some of my own issues I've posted here. I would not waste this precious signal on two FM receivers. Each time you split, you diminish. This is way too much antenna for an FM set but it probably means putting up a separate omni-directional or directional (depending on your station locations) on the roof and running a sep. cable down so that you can distribute to those, if you must have all the FM stations. For any FM set that is high, maybe you can just use a simple indoor dipole. Alternatively, you can boost the signal and maybe this would be advisable. Investigate the boosters and decide which is best - antenna located or inside, guess both have some advantages. My booster has a variable gain control and I do recommend this since an over boosted signal can be noisy. I had splitters for my VCRs because I didn't want to fool with the TV/VCR switches on the units. But this weakened the signals to all the sets so there really is a price to be paid for that. I am gradually doing away with VCR splitters and trying to keep the signals going to TVs and converters only. i was able to visibly reduce noise by removing just one splitter, in one problem area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick0725 View Post

To split the signal to the fm receivers use a winegard ca8800 tv/fm splitter instead of a standard splitter off the combo antenna. Insertion loss is only .4 db.

Put an RF terminator on the unused splitter port. And, connected 3rd feed to an analog TV. These two step made it possible to watch Philly 29 during the afternoon, which was not possible before. Terminated those open lines! I also connected one D2A converter box to the main feed and did not see any appreciable difference in signal strength compared to 4-way splitter reception.

Sniffed reception from Ch 27 in Harrisburg. A good sign for post transition. I want to be able to get the CBS affiliate for greater NFL variety.

Called the installer, requested changing out the 4-way splitter for a 3-way. The 3-way splitter was my original request. Going to have to wait a few days for that change. Going to pick up a couple of Db's there.

Did not split the signal for FM, yet. I can live with a little indoor antenna that picks up the local FM stations. (Does hurt a little not to be able to use the outdoor antenna, but I'll live.)

The Winegard CA8800 splitter looks like it costs nearly as much as a 3-way distribution amp. Is that the preferred course of action, because a distribution amp may generate too much signal from some stations?

What does it mean when the signal strength rapidly cycles from 0 to 50%? Is that caused by multi-path?
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post #8387 of 16294 Old 06-21-2008, 05:33 PM
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How do I get 5.1 Audio from an antenna if I do not have an Tuner build into my A/V Receiver? I have a Pioneer VSX92THX. I wanted to get an antenna to check out my local OTA HD. But I'm not sure on how to go about getting that OTA 5.1 audio. My tv has only stereo outputs.

Thanks.
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post #8388 of 16294 Old 06-21-2008, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

Yeah, I had already seen that. I was wondering about a uhf/vhf 300 ohm input combiner with an integrated balun 75 ohm output. Is no such animal being sold now ?

I have an old Gemini uhf/vhf splitter that has 300 ohm outputs and 75 ohm in, that I was thinking to use in reverse after weatherizing it. I took it apart to see 2 small disc capacitors and the coils were etched into the pc board in a greek key type pattern, and a transformer to the 75 ohm in. (it also had 2 small resistors in it, but they were going to the 300 ohm FM output, which I wont use)
What do you think about its use ?

Some combiners with 300-ohm input and 75-ohm output were listed here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=13942351

However, since they don't list any specs, insertion loss is unknown.

Using OLD (or unknown) RF components is a crap shoot....they are likely to have
an insertion loss at HIGHER end of range of posted measurements.....or worse....
For example old style RF combiners had 6 dB vice nominal 3.5 dB insertion loss....

The LOWEST LOSS is to use the UVSJ with individual Baluns.
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post #8389 of 16294 Old 06-21-2008, 06:22 PM
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Winegard 4400 vs Channel Master 4221

Which has the better build quality? Which one is tougher, stronger, can take more abuse? Which one will last longer?

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post #8390 of 16294 Old 06-21-2008, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

Use a pair of 300-ohm to 75-ohm Balun Transformers...one for VHF and one for UHF.
A pair of coax runs connect to UVSJ low-loss VHF/UHF Combiner and then coax downlead:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
http://www.summitsource.com/uhfvhf-b...sj-p-6976.html

Be sure to use waterproof sealer on all connections.

Alternatively, if you don't have any "nearby" towers, use a Preamp with separate
UHF and VHF inputs instead. Choice of preamp depends on distance to towers...

====================================
PS: Solution for jcs444 (post #7322) was for ATTIC use, presuming coax or twin-lead output.


Looks like the CM preamps with the 300 ohm input and 75 ohm outputs are the only way to go for me.
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post #8391 of 16294 Old 06-21-2008, 06:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bykes View Post

How do I get 5.1 Audio from an antenna if I do not have an Tuner build into my A/V Receiver? I have a Pioneer VSX92THX. I wanted to get an antenna to check out my local OTA HD. But I'm not sure on how to go about getting that OTA 5.1 audio. My tv has only stereo outputs.

Thanks.

What TV/Tuner do you have??? You may have to just use PLII mode if the TV/Tuner does not have an optical out...This is another plus of using a seperate tuner...which is still an option...
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post #8392 of 16294 Old 06-21-2008, 07:11 PM
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I wonder how this one stacks up to the Winegard 4400 and the CM 4221....

Antennacraft U-4000



My tower cluster is tight together at 45 miles 55 degrees NE, but that markets PBS station is moving to VHF Hi next year. However I have another PBS station broadcasting at 23 miles at 294 degrees which will stay on UHF. So Im trying to catch it on the backside(its the only other station I pick up reliably besides those in the cluster). I was leaning to the Winegard 4400, but this one looks like it may give me some backside seepage as well.

I currently have a DB2 hooked up on the roof with a Channel Master 7777 amp and 50ft of Quad Sheild RG6 to the Vizio GV42LF, and its performing admirably, definately pretty satisfactory, but Id like to lock everything in just a bit better. Picks up my backside PBS station as good as everything from Charleston....which means Id like to boost it just a bit more.

Hmmmm....

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post #8393 of 16294 Old 06-21-2008, 09:23 PM
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Quote:


but this one looks like it may give me some backside seepage as well.

I believe it will too.
Of course some people dont want the backside seepage due to reflections from the back causing multipath.
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post #8394 of 16294 Old 06-22-2008, 01:02 AM
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Binging a 4228 reflector. "Yes, bare copper wire, not insulated. The idea is to make the sections one big reflector electrically.
Would 1/32" stainless TIG rod work the same electrically? It's bare, would be stronger, and last longer, and I have a few.
Thanks,
Steve
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post #8395 of 16294 Old 06-22-2008, 01:04 AM
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Previous post question should have read "Binding" a 4228 reflector together
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post #8396 of 16294 Old 06-22-2008, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post

Winegard 4400 vs Channel Master 4221

Which has the better build quality? Which one is tougher, stronger, can take more abuse? Which one will last longer?

The 4400 is very light weight and is good in windy, snowy places, but the 4221 is probably stronger. I think the Antennas Direct DB4 is by far the best build quality though. I have one I only use to show folks the reception they can get because it travels well.
Just looked at a 4221 that my brother has and the build is very close to the DB4, so it is stronger than the 4400. However, if you are just going to put it up and leave it, it shouldn't make much difference. The 4400 has a little more gain over the DB4 and beats the 4221 below channel 28 for gain.
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post #8397 of 16294 Old 06-22-2008, 06:32 AM
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What TV/Tuner do you have??? You may have to just use PLII mode if the TV/Tuner does not have an optical out...This is another plus of using a seperate tuner...which is still an option...

All I have is the built in ATSC/QAM Tuner in my Samsung LN-T4665F LCD. It has an optical out, but it only outputs 2 channel stereo. Not really sure what the wisdom is behind that.
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post #8398 of 16294 Old 06-22-2008, 07:02 AM
 
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Looks like you may be stuck with PLII then...ALOT better than just PL...Though this spec makes it sound like the optical will output 5.1 it will only do 2.0:

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Digital Audio: The optical digital output on the rear panel will output Dolby Digital (when available) or 2 channel PCM.

AVRs don't have 'tuners' in them for audio only off OTA or QAM...The only other option is a seperate tuner that outputs 5.1 via either analog...coaxial..or optical...This is what I do...
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post #8399 of 16294 Old 06-22-2008, 08:52 AM
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What about the tuners that the Government is giving out coupons for? Do those have optical/coaxial outs?
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post #8400 of 16294 Old 06-22-2008, 10:07 AM
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No, The gov't program guidelines stipulate "no" digital audio outputs. I'm surprised they even allowed S-Video.
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