The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 328 - AVS Forum
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post #9811 of 16297 Old 02-12-2009, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphanguy View Post

What would I need a filter for? Yes, I point 2 antennas in two different directions, and I have seperate coax for each one. The the A/B switch selects which antenna's signal is fed into the TV at any given time.

Correct you don't need a filter if you use an a/b switch. Sorry I missed that.

Good luck.
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post #9812 of 16297 Old 02-12-2009, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX HD View Post

I've posted it here before,I think.Here it is.



http://alpha.future.ee/triax_unix.png

Cool, I've never seen that.
Makes me want to try 4 K-banders.
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post #9813 of 16297 Old 02-12-2009, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post

Here is the comparison. Most of the signal level readings were made with the DisplayMax 800, but I added a few from the 719E for comparison or when the level was too low for the 800. The specs for the 800 say that it can read digital down to -23dBmV. When the level is too low for it, the display says "Ur." which I assume to mean unreadable. I used the same box #1 as last time, first in a strong signal location:

Code:
Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
   dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV

    0           100           84       +14.1      +12.5
    3           100           84       +11.2
    6           100           84        +7.6
    9           100           83        +4.8
   12           100           80        +2.5
   15           100           75        -0.8
   18           100           72        -4.6
   21           100           67        -7.7
   24           100           64       -10.2
   27           100           60       -12.8
   30           100           56       -14.9
   33           100           53       -17.1
   36           100           47         Ur.      -23.0
   39           100           42                  -27.2
   42           100           37                  -28.5
   45            66           27                  -35
   48            34            0
The OTA readings seemed to vary a bit that day, probably because of the strong wind through the trees that are in the signal path.

and then in a weak signal location:
Code:
Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
   dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV

    0           100           62       -14.1     -17.5
    3           100           54       -16.3
    6           100           49       -18.4
    9           100           44         Ur.     -26.0
   12            99           37                 -29.5
   15            81           32                 -35
   18            21            0                 -38
   21                                      Dropout
I think that all CECBs should have two signal bars because of the importance of signal QUALITY for digital reception. So far, I have tested the Zinwell ZAT-970A, the Apex DT502, and the Sansonic FT300A. My first choice as a measurement tool is the Apex. The Zinwell and Sansonic don't always give consistent readings for the same input, and the Sansonic bars take a long time to respond to changes.

Thanks for posting the data, it will come in handy.

Yeah, my Sansonic FT300A bars take time to respond to changes too. I imagine youll post a similiar comparison to it later too.
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post #9814 of 16297 Old 02-12-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX HD View Post

As a general rule of thumb steel pipe is 3 times stronger than aluminum of the same dimension.

It really depends on the alloy.

Black iron (water pipe) yield strength ~ 30,000 PSI
Low carbon steel yield strength ~ 36,000 PSI
Aircraft grade 4130 steel yield strength ~ 50,000 PSI
High carbon steel yield strength ~ 87,000 PSI
Tool steel yield strength as much as 100,000 PSI

Aluminum alloys
6063 (no temper)15,000 PSI
6063 T832 40,000 PSI
3003 21,000 PSI
2024 42,000 PSI
6061T6 35,000 PSI

Typical comparison info for ham masts:
http://www.texastowers.com/steelmasts.htm

If you select steel masts for strength purposes, make sure that it is high carbon steel. Water pipe doesn't cut it.
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post #9815 of 16297 Old 02-12-2009, 03:29 PM
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I think I'm in the wrong post, but I did a forum search for FM antenna and this popped up. I live in an apartment building and my FM reception is pretty bad. I'm not looking to spend much ($20-$30) as I hope to get a new HT receiver (currently Onkyo 601) in a couple years that will probably have HD Radio (if it's still around) as well as support for my digital collection. But what is the best low-cost antenna out there? I'm guessing amplified is the way to go.

thx
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post #9816 of 16297 Old 02-12-2009, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Cool, I've never seen that.
Makes me want to try 4 K-banders.

Well,good luck finding those.I noticed cpc had some listed a few months ago-but have disappeared.Bet a dollar to a doughnut they don't have any Band A's either.cpc was the only company in the UK that was reasonable and easy to do business.I think our Euro pipeline for the good stuff has dried up
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post #9817 of 16297 Old 02-12-2009, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post

It really depends on the alloy.

Black iron (water pipe) yield strength ~ 30,000 PSI
Low carbon steel yield strength ~ 36,000 PSI
Aircraft grade 4130 steel yield strength ~ 50,000 PSI
High carbon steel yield strength ~ 87,000 PSI
Tool steel yield strength as much as 100,000 PSI

Aluminum alloys
6063 (no temper)15,000 PSI
6063 T832 40,000 PSI
3003 21,000 PSI
2024 42,000 PSI
6061T6 35,000 PSI

Typical comparison info for ham masts:
http://www.texastowers.com/steelmasts.htm

If you select steel masts for strength purposes, make sure that it is high carbon steel. Water pipe doesn't cut it.

I've used Sch40 pipe, steel and aluminum,which have similar specs,but in actual use the steel is much stiffer.I use Aluminum because of the weight savings realized when lifting the tower from the ground to vertical,as well as the rusting issue.But,after watching the array last night taking a hammering with 50mph wind gusts,I think I'll replace the 1-1/4" AL(1-5/8" OD) with steel from the rotor up thru the top bearing.It bends in the middle too much(7ft unsupported).
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post #9818 of 16297 Old 02-12-2009, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGrigg View Post

I think I'm in the wrong post, but I did a forum search for FM antenna and this popped up. I live in an apartment building and my FM reception is pretty bad. I'm not looking to spend much ($20-$30) as I hope to get a new HT receiver (currently Onkyo 601) in a couple years that will probably have HD Radio (if it's still around) as well as support for my digital collection. But what is the best low-cost antenna out there? I'm guessing amplified is the way to go.

thx

You can calculate signal strengths using www.tvfool.com
If your signals are strong enough, a folded dipole should
work quite well. Connect to receiver via a 300-to-75-ohm
(Balun) Transformer:
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html
If you have an attic, adding a reflector and optional director increases gain.

Or use simple Rabbit Ears, since FM Band is just above Ch6:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/rabbit.htm

You can use an amplified antenna if FM signal strengths (and Ch6)
are LESS than about -25 dBm ("LESS" would be -26 dBm).

FYI: Some (too much???) high performance FM Antenna Info:
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/
http://www.aphenos.net/misc/electron...g_Antennas.htm
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post #9819 of 16297 Old 02-13-2009, 12:38 PM
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A couple of questions regarding mounting antennas. If I decide to mount separate UHF and VHF high antennas on the same mast, how far must one be above the other? If I use guide wires to add stability, how far below the lowest of the two antennas do the wires need to be fastened to the mast?
Thanks
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post #9820 of 16297 Old 02-13-2009, 03:41 PM
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Old rule of thumb used to be something like one wavelength of the lowest frequency, but of course thats not practical in most cases. Try to get as much distance between them as you can without sacrificing structural stability.
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post #9821 of 16297 Old 02-13-2009, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioxcel View Post

A couple of questions regarding mounting antennas. If I decide to mount separate UHF and VHF high antennas on the same mast, how far must one be above the other? If I use guide wires to add stability, how far below the lowest of the two antennas do the wires need to be fastened to the mast?
Thanks

Rule of thumb is 36 inches for uhf, 48 for hi vhf, and 60 for lo vhf. 36 would probably still be ok for hi vhf especially if you only need the higher vhf channels say 10 and above. Spacing to prevent interference is measured from nearest metallic elements.
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post #9822 of 16297 Old 02-13-2009, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGrigg View Post

I think I'm in the wrong post, but I did a forum search for FM antenna and this popped up. I live in an apartment building and my FM reception is pretty bad. I'm not looking to spend much ($20-$30)
thx

Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

... use simple Rabbit Ears, since FM Band is just above Ch6

If you're not a long way from the radio transmitter towers, a simple rabbit ear antenna works well. This one from Radio Shack works particularly well with FM and HD radio:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103077
I'm using one for FM/HD radio stations ~45 miles away.

Leave off the loop part of the antenna when assembling it. It is for UHF TV band. You only need to attach the two dipole elements for FM reception.
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post #9823 of 16297 Old 02-13-2009, 09:10 PM
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MaxHD,

My new Rohn Tower was checked out this week. We had 70 MPH winds last night, and no issues with the horizontal stack of 91XG's and the High Bander on the bottom. The neighbors did not make it. They had the American Tower brand and it bend over.

I am considered to be the king on the road, as all of my neighbors that I would have bought the farm. I had two full truck loads of concrete for the base. I can post pictures if needed.
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post #9824 of 16297 Old 02-14-2009, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post

It depends on the alloys of the steel and aluminum.

Good aluminum is stronger than galvanized water pipe but TV mast is often much stronger than water pipe. The strongest aluminum is usually sized as tubing and not pipe, but there are exceptions.

Where does one find a "Good" "TV mast?" I was looking to use 10' of 1" and a sleeve from 1¼" galvanized water pipe for top dry bearing and mast shaft. This will support the mounting of a Channel Master 3020 on a 40' tower (which I would like to add another 10'), anchored to the eave of my single story residence.
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post #9825 of 16297 Old 02-14-2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCTools View Post

MaxHD,

My new Rohn Tower was checked out this week. We had 70 MPH winds last night, and no issues with the horizontal stack of 91XG's and the High Bander on the bottom. The neighbors did not make it. They had the American Tower brand and it bend over.

I am considered to be the king on the road, as all of my neighbors that I would have bought the farm. I had two full truck loads of concrete for the base. I can post pictures if needed.

Like I told you,you're out of spec for 25,but it's very tuff tower for sure.No pics needed,but a video of the stuff wavin in the wind would be cool
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post #9826 of 16297 Old 02-14-2009, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systems2000 View Post

Where does one find a "Good" "TV mast?" I was looking to use 10' of 1" and a sleeve from 1¼" galvanized water pipe for top dry bearing and mast shaft. This will support the mounting of a Channel Master 3020 on a 40' tower (which I would like to add another 10'), anchored to the eave of my single story residence.

Just use 1" galvanized pipe(1-1/4" OD)
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post #9827 of 16297 Old 02-14-2009, 11:35 PM
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So, I can go ahead with my initial idea of 1" and using the 1¼" Galv Pipe as the outside sleeve (fits inside the through hole on the top of my tower) for a top bearing? Good to know. After the analog shutdown happens and the stations get settled, I'll need to re-evaluate my main antenna.
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post #9828 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post

Here is the comparison for my Apex DT502. Most of the signal level readings were made with the DisplayMax 800, but I added a few from the 719E for comparison or when the level was too low for the 800. The specs for the 800 say that it can read digital down to -23dBmV. When the level is too low for it, the display says "Ur." which I assume to mean unreadable. I used the same box #1 as last time, first in a strong signal location:

Code:
Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
   dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV

    0           100           84       +14.1      +12.5
    3           100           84       +11.2
    6           100           84        +7.6
    9           100           83        +4.8
   12           100           80        +2.5
   15           100           75        -0.8
   18           100           72        -4.6
   21           100           67        -7.7
   24           100           64       -10.2
   27           100           60       -12.8
   30           100           56       -14.9
   33           100           53       -17.1
   36           100           47         Ur.      -23.0
   39           100           42                  -27.2
   42           100           37                  -28.5
   45            66           27                  -35
   48            34            0
The OTA readings seemed to vary a bit that day, probably because of the strong wind through the trees that are in the signal path.

and then in a weak signal location:
Code:
Attenuator    Quality     Strength      DM800     719E
   dB            %            %         dBmV      dBmV

    0           100           62       -14.1     -17.5
    3           100           54       -16.3
    6           100           49       -18.4
    9           100           44         Ur.     -26.0
   12            99           37                 -29.5
   15            81           32                 -35
   18            21            0                 -38
   21                                      Dropout
I think that all CECBs should have two signal bars because of the importance of signal QUALITY for digital reception. So far, I have tested the Zinwell ZAT-970A, the Apex DT502, and the Sansonic FT300A. My first choice as a measurement tool is the Apex. The Zinwell and Sansonic don't always give consistent readings for the same input, and the Sansonic bars take a long time to respond to changes.

rabbit73,

Here are APEX DT502 readings of stations I'm receiving:

Station Strength Quality Notes
WMAR-DT 61% 30% Heavy ±, 2-edge
WBAL-DT 58% 29% Heavy ±, 2-edge
WJZ-DT 84% 100% Solid, 2-edge
WUTB-DT 70% 80% Minor ±, 2-edge
WWPB-DT 84% 23% Off-Axis, 21 mile LOS (local)
WNUV-DT 78% 100% Solid, 2-edge
WWPX-DT 85% 54% Off-Axis, 34 mile LOS (local)

NOTE: My setup is a decoupled CM3020, with a 0265DSB pre-amp, mounted on top of a 40' tower. This is then fed into a Trunkline 20-TDA25 25dB DA via a 6dB In-Line attenuator. From the DA, I have a 2-way splitter that feeds house distribution of about 40-50' to another 2-way.
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post #9829 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 11:24 AM
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Quote:


rabbit73,

Here are APEX DT502 readings of stations I'm receiving:

Station Strength Quality Notes
WMAR-DT 61% 30% Heavy ±, 2-edge
WBAL-DT 58% 29% Heavy ±, 2-edge
WJZ-DT 84% 100% Solid, 2-edge
WUTB-DT 70% 80% Minor ±, 2-edge
WWPB-DT 84% 23% Off-Axis, 21 mile LOS (local)
WNUV-DT 78% 100% Solid, 2-edge
WWPX-DT 85% 54% Off-Axis, 34 mile LOS (local)

NOTE: My setup is a decoupled CM3020, with a 0265DSB pre-amp, mounted on top of a 40' tower. This is then fed into a Trunkline 20-TDA25 25dB DA via a 6dB In-Line attenuator. From the DA, I have a 2-way splitter that feeds house distribution of about 40-50' to another 2-way.

Interesting, I can almost see the noise caused by the DAs in your system. Im at 61 miles from my transmitters, using a DBGH uhf with a CM1221 modded for future vhf (no vhf DT stations yet) 25 ft on the roof, with a CM0264 into a two way splitter and an AB switch for a second DBGH. Most of my Apex DT502 quality readings for the signal strengths you have listed or above are at 100%, like rabbit73s chart.
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post #9830 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 12:07 PM
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If I remove the DA, I would probably only get WJZ-DT and WNUV-DT.
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post #9831 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systems2000 View Post

So, I can go ahead with my initial idea of 1" and using the 1¼" Galv Pipe as the outside sleeve (fits inside the through hole on the top of my tower) for a top bearing? Good to know. After the analog shutdown happens and the stations get settled, I'll need to re-evaluate my main antenna.

I don't have enough info on what you have or what you're doing,but the pipes will turn inside each other.With a hole in the tower top,I'd use a 1-1/4" floor flange bolted on top with nothing else or maybe a very short stub of pipe screwed into the flange.Again,I don't know your complete configuration plan.
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post #9832 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 12:29 PM
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My station strengths:

STATION ANALOG CURRENT FUTURE NM (dB)
WMAR-DT 2 52 38 -21.5
WBAL-DT 11 59 11 -23.1
WJZ-DT 13 38 13 -17.2
WUTB-DT 24 41 41 -24.9
WHAG-DT 25 55 26 +59.2
WWPB-DT 31 44 44 +47.7
WNUV-DT 54 40 40 -19.0
WWPX-DT 60 12 12 +42.6
WJAL-DT 68 - 39 +53.7
NOTE: WHAG-DT and WJAL-DT will not be receivable until after analog shutdown.
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post #9833 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 12:31 PM
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Short piece of 1¼" galv with couplers top and bottom (cheaper than floor flnges).
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post #9834 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 12:46 PM
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Anyone know where I can pick up a Funke PSP.1922? Are they still making these?

- DFGY
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post #9835 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 01:44 PM
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Quote:


If I remove the DA, I would probably only get WJZ-DT and WNUV-DT.

Oh yeah, I didnt mean to imply to remove them. You need them to drive the additional cable runs you must have. I was just noting the quality per the DT502 and my system and your system.

Quote:


but the pipes will turn inside each other

Or a small hole with a bolt thru both pipes.
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post #9836 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 01:56 PM
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I'm using an indoor antenna and I've currently had the best results with an old RS 15-1864 RE and loop, although I've tried a RCA ANT121 and a RS delta and an RS 22 db amplified antenna.
I pick up all the UHF channels with pretty stable strengths running between 65 and 98 depending on the channel but was having trouble with two high VHF channels. I'm about 25 miles from all the signals. Placing the antenna in the window is about the same as inside the room near the ceiling, but touching the rabbit ears to the window edges (metal) improves the signal enough to pick up the VHF channels. Could someone explain this to me?

Thanks.
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post #9837 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharam View Post

Placing the antenna in the window is about the same as inside the room near the ceiling, but touching the rabbit ears to the window edges (metal) improves the signal enough to pick up the VHF channels. Could someone explain this to me?

VHF doesn't travel through walls as well as UHF does. Also, certain kinds of wall insulation and types of window glass can block TV signals. The metal window frame may be picking up enough signal from outside to allow reception when the dipoles touch it.

On one TV, I've had very good results using this rabbit ear/loop antenna, which has a larger gauge coax than most cheap set top antennas. Placed against an outside wall, I'm getting channels from over 45 miles away. YMMV, of course.
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post #9838 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEEPFRINGEGUY View Post

Anyone know where I can pick up a Funke PSP.1922? Are they still making these?

- DFGY

I'm sold out.The company in Holland may still make up a batch.They wanted a minimum 100 unit order at the time I ordered them,but they settled at 49 units when we BS'd about Pacer basketball(Rik Smits is from Holland).The export mgr done follow-up calls to me several times,so they seemed eager to do export business.

Or,maybe someone I sold to has one that didn't work out and sees your post?
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post #9839 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 06:55 PM
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MAX HD,

Maybe you should consider becoming the official US distributor for Funke. Maybe not the entire line, only the antennas useful for DXing and fringe.
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post #9840 of 16297 Old 02-15-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

Or a small hole with a bolt thru both pipes.

But I want the 1" pipe to turn, because it will be bottomed by my Channel Master rotator.

I've devised a mount for my rotator, by drilling holes through one of the three legs of the tower. I mount two American Valve, #302038, 1" galvanized "Split Ring Hanger" pipe clamps, with 3/8"x4" galvanized bolts and 2" spacers (by using ½" EMT as spacers, this gives me room to clear the supports and, to mount and center the rotator on the tower). I place a 3/8" galvanized washer between the spacer and the "Split Ring Hanger" to give the hanger something to rest against. By clamping the "Split Ring Hanger" around a 1" galv pipe of five or ten feet, I have the ability to move the rotator up and down the pipe to peak the antenna, which is mounted to a 10'x1" galvanized pipe.
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