The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 488 - AVS Forum
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post #14611 of 16266 Old 03-14-2012, 05:03 PM
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> When splitting the signal even once (into two feeds) the signal drops
> too much for dependable reception. When going into a 4way distribution
> amp, the signal is boosted too much tesulting in tuner overload and
> an almost unusable signal.

bad cable?
bad splitter?
unterminated port on splitter?
bad distribution amp?
other signals driving dist amp or tuner into overload?

You don't mention any VHF-LO stations, so try adding a HLSJ diplexor
as a high pass filter. Terminate the LO port. This will filter out
signals below VHF-HI, including the often troublesome FM band.

A good 2 way splitter eats 3.5 dB.
A good 4 way splitter eats 7.4 dB.
A low performance one may eat more.

How many dB of gain does the distribution amp provide?
Make & model of the dist amp?
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post #14612 of 16266 Old 03-15-2012, 04:28 AM
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This project is in a cabin on my best friend's land out a little west of Beaumont. I am going to Ralph's electronics today after work to pick up some new splitters (1-2, 1-3, and a 1-4) and I will try them out this weekend. I do have some terminators, and I will be sure to use them. I will also be able to get the specs on the distribution amp at that time also, but it is a variable gain amp, and I have used one just like it on two other installations with the only main difference in the set-ups being the other two installations were with combo antennas (a CM 3671 and a RS VU-190 ) and this one is a stacked array with a high gain UHF on top of a (as I mentioned in my earlier post) 50 year old or more VHF only antenna. As for bad cables, could be. I will make some new ones. I also don't really want to block the VHF LO out, as one of my goals is to connect the antenna to the Sangean HD radio reciever that's there (although, I have bought a dedicated FM antenna for that purpose but it is not erected yet... It's number hasn't come up yet... ). We are a good ways from any FM transmitters.

I will post NM numbers from TV Fool when I get a chance...

I will have more info this weekend.

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #14613 of 16266 Old 03-15-2012, 11:38 AM
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> I also don't really want to block the VHF LO out, as one of my goals
> is to connect the antenna to the Sangean HD radio reciever that's there
> (although, I have bought a dedicated FM antenna for that purpose but it
> is not erected yet...

So instead of terminating the LO port, connect the LO port to the radio.
Still keeps the FM and such out of the TV tuners, and keeps most of the
TV bands out of the radio.

And, using a diplexor results in far less loss (almost none) than using
a splitter to drive the radio.

And a good diplexor costs less to purchase than a good splitter.

Triple win.
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post #14614 of 16266 Old 03-15-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad2 View Post

> I also don't really want to block the VHF LO out, as one of my goals
> is to connect the antenna to the Sangean HD radio reciever that's there
> (although, I have bought a dedicated FM antenna for that purpose but it
> is not erected yet...

So instead of terminating the LO port, connect the LO port to the radio.
Still keeps the FM and such out of the TV tuners, and keeps most of the
TV bands out of the radio.

And, using a diplexor results in far less loss (almost none) than using
a splitter to drive the radio.

And a good diplexor costs less to purchase than a good splitter.

Triple win.

That's pretty cool. Didn't know there was any such animal... I got two new splitters this afternoon before I read your post. Not sure if Ralph's has them for sure, but I bet they do. I got a 1X2 and a 1X4, so I will try those out this weekend. I will get a couple of the hljs diplexors for future use. I'll put them in my "goodies box". I am curious to see how the new splitters behave this weekend and I will post the results here...

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #14615 of 16266 Old 03-16-2012, 03:56 PM
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A while back I posted asking about the best choice of antenna for picking up signals in several different directions without using a rotor (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21755231). I passed on your ideas to my neighbor.

Yesterday, during a lull in our on-going rainy week, the neighbor put up two antennas that he found for sale on Craig's List... a Clearstream 2 and Clearstream 5 combination. He pointed them at 176º and is very pleased with the results. In fact, I think he's is doing quite well.

He receives all of the Sutro and Mt. San Bruno stations, including the two low power ones on Mt. San Bruno, all of the high power stations in the South Bay hills at 35 miles as well as KTNC from Mt. Diablo, 30 miles east, off the side of the antennas, and KTLN from Novato, 30 miles north, off the back of the antennas. He does not receive the two stations to the far north at 45 and 65 miles, nor any of the Walnut Grove stations at 55º and 62 miles. I'd be shocked if he did! Those two antennas together seem to be quite effective.

Larry
SF

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
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Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

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post #14616 of 16266 Old 03-16-2012, 04:27 PM
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OK guys... I owe you all a tip of the hat. Put the NEW 4-way splitter on the antenna lead in this evening. What a difference a good splitter (or cable) makes! I changed out both the old 2-way splitter and the cable, so I'm not sure which one was the problem, but with the new splitter in place, and the other 3 ports terminated, it made virtually NO DIFFERENCE in the signal strength on the new Haier HDTV. I'm a happy camper. The only little quirk that I noticed is that I have to aim the antenna a little more directly at the distant FOX station, but when I do, signal is still in the 90s, plus the distant low power translator drops out now, but the good news is, the main low power station that thettanslator feeds off of is still in the 90s .

I thank all of you who took the time to respond. Looks like I am back in business! Thanks again.

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #14617 of 16266 Old 03-18-2012, 10:36 AM
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Follow-up: I got every thing set up yesterday and have great signal to 4 recievers: Haier 32" HDTV, Zenith converter box feeding a Samsung DVD recorder/VCR combo, Channel Master DVR (which won't decode channel 12 anymore) and a 7" Haier TV by the bed. A couple of the more sensitive tuners are even able to decode KPLC (RF7) from 75.5 miles away, and the antennas are only up about 15-16 feet. So apparently, the splitter I first tried to use was a POS, or the jumper cable I was using had gone bad (who woulda thunk, huh?).

Anyway, thanks again for all the feedback and help. I am good to go. I am gonna try to take a week of vacation next week and if I can, I am gonna try to take a day and get that FM antenna up and running, and if that happens, I can reset the FM trap on the CM 7777 back to "in" on the TV antennas.

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #14618 of 16266 Old 03-18-2012, 11:34 AM
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The CM DVR has great tuners. But it has two of them, so the signal is split between them and signal strength is reduced.
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post #14619 of 16266 Old 03-18-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

The CM DVR has great tuners. But it has two of them, so the signal is split between them and signal strength is reduced.

I see what you're saying, but this started before the current project. I called a engineer at KBMT thinking they had tweaked the data stream for some reason, but he assured me that was not the case.

DVR signal meter shows signal strength in thwme 90s, and I get guide data for both channels, but it shows "no service"notification when tuning to the channel. It just will not decode the data.

I have rebooted, deleted the channels, deleted the channels and then rebooted, deleted the channels and then re-added, and tried the old unplugging trick all to the same result... signal in the 90s, no service. No problem on any other channels. That is why I startex looking into splitting the signal to begin with. I wanted to add the Samsung DVD recorder/VCR so I could record channel 12.1/12.2. So I am covered under now all the way around.

Would like to know what happened to the channel 12 data though...

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #14620 of 16266 Old 03-18-2012, 04:16 PM
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> I called a engineer at KBMT

KBMT ? Is that a typo for KNMT ?

> Would like to know what happened to the channel 12 data though...

The first harmonic of FM stations lands in VHF-HI, so once you
get FM out of the TV tuners you might get 12. If the 7777's
FM trap isn't enough, try the HLSJ. You might have FM coming in
common mode, which no filter will get rid of. Try adding ferrite
around the coax just before the tuner.

1/4"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-450
3/8"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-452
1/2"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-454

Ideally you want a snug fit without crushing the coax.
The 3/8" size is the best fit for most coax used for antennas.
The thicker RG11 might need the 1/2"?
Norvacs used to carry similar parts (maybe they still do?).
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post #14621 of 16266 Old 03-18-2012, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAhead View Post

... DVR signal meter shows signal strength in thwme 90s, and I get guide data for both channels, but it shows "no service"notification when tuning to the channel. It just will not decode the data...

Have you tried a double re-scan?
1. Disconnect the antenna.
2. Run autoscan or whatever it's called in the setup menu.
3. Reconnect the antenna.
4. Run autoscan again.

I had a similar problem when a local station made changes to their PSIP data. The TV tuner could still "see" the station, but it could no longer decode it. The above procedure fixed it.
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post #14622 of 16266 Old 03-18-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

Have you tried a double re-scan?
1. Disconnect the antenna.
2. Run autoscan or whatever it's called in the setup menu.
3. Reconnect the antenna.
4. Run autoscan again.

I had a similar problem when a local station made changes to their PSIP data. The TV tuner could still "see" the station, but it could no longer decode it. The above procedure fixed it.

You know, a double rescan is the one thing I have not tried... I've read about them before, but didn't even think about it in this case. I'll definitely try that next weekend. Thanks for the suggestion.

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #14623 of 16266 Old 03-18-2012, 05:30 PM
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Is your Channel Master DVR set-up to receive guide data from TVGuide On Screen (KFDM)? If so the guide data for KBMT may not be up-to-date.
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post #14624 of 16266 Old 03-18-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad2 View Post

> I called a engineer at KBMT

KBMT ? Is that a typo for KNMT ?

> Would like to know what happened to the channel 12 data though...

The first harmonic of FM stations lands in VHF-HI, so once you
get FM out of the TV tuners you might get 12. If the 7777's
FM trap isn't enough, try the HLSJ. You might have FM coming in
common mode, which no filter will get rid of. Try adding ferrite
around the coax just before the tuner.

1/4"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-450
3/8"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-452
_1/2"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-454

Ideally you want a snug fit without crushing the coax.
The 3/8" size is the best fit for most coax used for antennas.
The thicker RG11 might need the 1/2"?
Norvacs used to carry similar parts (maybe they still do?).

KBMT is the call sign for channel 12 in Beaumont, Texas, my home DMA.

You see, I was recieving 12 on the DVR until just a couple of weeks ago with the antenna set-up I am still using. KBMT (RF 12) runs ABC in 720 on 12.1 and NBC downconverted to 720 on 12.2. KBMT has a LMA for two low power digital stations (KUIL-LD on channel 43 and K36ID) of which both ID as 12.3 and 12.4. On the DVR channel 12 ID'd as 12.1/12.2. K36ID ID'd as 12.3/12.4. KUIL ID'd as 70.1/70.2. All three were being recieved on the DVR. Then, a couple of weeks ago channel 12 stopped decoding after more than a year of using the DVR. Pook, one weekend it's there, the next it's not. Nothing else changed as far as I know. 12 just stopped decoding. That 's what prompted me to try splitting the signal. I was trying to get it to a Samsung DVD recorder/VCR combo and while I was at it to the Sangean and a 7" TV bythe bed. That's done now, thanks to y'all, but after all I've done, the DVR still won't decode 12 like it did before...

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #14625 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 02:10 AM
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Hello, I am trying to record some news and drama shows on station KIKU with my Hauppuage WinTV-HVR-1250 tuner card. The issue is KIKU can not be picked up during a channel scan.
I also have Channel Master tuner box with my homemade antenna that does get KIKU. The antenna is attached to both the CM and PC tuner.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2gtunph.jpg
I have done signal scanning for both the PC tuner and CM on the SE and NW windows on the second story with similar TV signal strengths. Neither side SE or NW helped the PC tuner pick up KIKU during a channel scan.

In another test - I left the CM with signal strength indicator on - for KIKU. I moved around the house and even rotated the antenna in all directions - KIKU signal was solid at 100%. The station signal is very strong.

Channel Master picked up channels with signal strength info from SE:
2 KHON comes on sometimes very weak mostly no signal
4 KITV ABC 100%
5 KGMB CBS 100%
9 KFVE 100%
11 KHET PBS 100%
13 KHNL NBC 100%
14 KWHE comes on sometimes very weak mostly no signal
19 KIKU 100%
26 KAAH 80%
43 KWBN 100%
66 ION 90-100%

Thank you!
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post #14626 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 05:19 AM
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OTAhead,
retiredengineer is most likely correct; the TVGuide OnScreen guide data for your problem channel has likely not been updated. You need to contact Tribune Media and explain the details of the problem you're having with that specific channel and when it began.
lineups@tribune.com

Also see the thread for your DVR, at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...aysprune=&f=42
And TVGOS specific issues at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914
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post #14627 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

OTAhead,
retiredengineer is most likely correct; the TVGuide OnScreen guide data for your problem channel has likely not been updated. You need to contact Tribune Media and explain the details of the problem you're having with that specific channel and when it began.
lineups@tribune.com

Also see the thread for your DVR, at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...aysprune=&f=42
And TVGOS specific issues at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914

Thanks. Will do.

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #14628 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete. View Post

Hello, I am trying to record some news and drama shows on station KIKU with my Hauppuage WinTV-HVR-1250 tuner card. The issue is KIKU can not be picked up during a channel scan.
I also have Channel Master tuner box with my homemade antenna that does get KIKU. The antenna is attached to both the CM and PC tuner.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2gtunph.jpg
I have done signal scanning for both the PC tuner and CM on the SE and NW windows on the second story with similar TV signal strengths. Neither side SE or NW helped the PC tuner pick up KIKU during a channel scan.

In another test - I left the CM with signal strength indicator on - for KIKU. I moved around the house and even rotated the antenna in all directions - KIKU signal was solid at 100%. The station signal is very strong.

Channel Master picked up channels with signal strength info from SE:
2 KHON comes on sometimes very weak mostly no signal
4 KITV ABC 100%
5 KGMB CBS 100%
9 KFVE 100%
11 KHET PBS 100%
13 KHNL NBC 100%
14 KWHE comes on sometimes very weak mostly no signal
19 KIKU 100%
26 KAAH 80%
43 KWBN 100%
66 ION 90-100%

Thank you!

Hi,

What arxaw just posted is well worth a try.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...ostcount=14623

It solves many problems. Can you add individual channels?

A more directional antenna may help if you are getting multipath from the mountains to the East.

TV Fool Google map

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

The Hauppuage WinTV-HVR-1250 tuner appears to be a older card (2008) so it may not have the latest tuner which eliminates some reception problems.

Have you tried Windows Media Center?

Lots of posts here on AVS about the Hauppuage WinTV-HVR-1250 tuner.

SHF
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post #14629 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

The CM DVR has great tuners. But it has two of them, so the signal is split between them and signal strength is reduced.

Are you sure that's the case? If it is then that's a bad design. I have the original Dish DTVPal DVR and it has a small low noise figure amp before the Microtune MT2131 tuners that acts as a distribution amp. It's also in place in pass-through mode so there's no loss when I connect my TV to the DVR RF output. The amp is made by Microtune specifically to run two tuners.

Chuck
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post #14630 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 08:18 AM
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I was not aware of the distro amp in the dtvpal DVR. Thanks for the info.
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post #14631 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 08:25 AM
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Quote:


If the 7777's FM trap isn't enough, try the HLSJ.

Solid Signal lists that item as discontinued. Looks like it passed DC only on low VHF which would complicate your setup if you wanted a high VHF preamp.

Chuck
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post #14632 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 10:46 AM
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>> If the 7777's FM trap isn't enough, try the HLSJ.
>
> Solid Signal lists that item as discontinued.

Solid Signal lists it, if you don't mind paying for the Blonder Tongue
sticker.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...ce=google_base

Less expensive here with a Holland sticker:
http://www.opentip.com/Electronics-C...p-2303464.html

More places here:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=sho...dd&safe=active

> Looks like it passed
> DC only on low VHF which would complicate your setup if you wanted
> a high VHF preamp.

The LO port is basicly a low pass filter. The HI port is basicly a
high pass filter. Not a surprise that the HI port doesn't pass DC.
If you need a preamp on VHF-HI, put the HLSJ upstream of the preamp
(and keep the FM out of the preamp) and/or downstream of the power
injector. I've seen FM get in through a power injector, so using one
both places can be a good idea if FM is a problem.
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post #14633 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

I was not aware of the distro amp in the dtvpal DVR. Thanks for the info.

The Channel Master 7000 DVR is the same as the Dish DTVpal DVR, so it should have the built in distro amp as well, if indeed that is the case. And that original CM DVR does have a very good tuner, unlike the newer 7400 version. The new version will only decode a strong signal, as weaker or distant signals will not be received, with or without a preamp. Perhaps the internal power supply is not grounded properly and generates too much noise. But the original CM DVR had a much better tuner design.
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post #14634 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad2 View Post

Solid Signal lists it, if you don't mind paying for the Blonder Tongue
sticker.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...ce=google_base

Less expensive here with a Holland sticker:
http://www.opentip.com/Electronics-C...p-2303464.html

Good to know there is something very inexpensive still available. If you want a high quality one though you'll need to spend real money. Tinlee makes them, better than 40 dB attenuation and you can request any combination of pass/block DC.

Chuck
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post #14635 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

The Channel Master 7000 DVR is the same as the Dish DTVpal DVR, so it should have the built in distro amp as well, if indeed that is the case. And that original CM DVR does have a very good tuner, unlike the newer 7400 version. The new version will only decode a strong signal, as weaker or distant signals will not be received, with or without a preamp. Perhaps the internal power supply is not grounded properly and generates too much noise. But the original CM DVR had a much better tuner design.

I've been watching the CM7400 thread. The reality is that without running some real tests, nobody knows what the issue is. If a preamp doesn't help, then it's unlikely to be a sensitivity issue. It's more likely to be a multipath handling issue.

I've spent a huge amount of time looking at DTV signals on a spectrum analyzer. No one can tell what is a strong signal or weak signal by reading the signal quality meter on their TV or DVR and any statements about signal strength based on that alone are speculation. Although the spectrum analyzer cannot show you multipath directly, you can infer that from the signal strength on the analyzer and the signal quality reading from your tuner.

I've had 5 different ATSC tuners here and the sensitivity of all of them is set by my preamps. Four of the tuners seem to have nearly identical multipath handling capabilities. One tuner, the Dish VIP-622 consistently performs 3-4 dB worse in handling multipath. I can't use that tuner for OTA because I have major multipath issues.

Chuck
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post #14636 of 16266 Old 03-19-2012, 04:15 PM
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Well, you work hard to have a good antenna and preamp set up for OTA reception, so it is very frustrating that you pay a premium price for a premium product that does not adequately perform its basic core function. While the CM-7400 will receive strong local signals, it does not receive weak or distant signals like its predecessor the 7000, and other good TV tuners such as LG, Samsung, and Panasonic. I know, I tried. Different antennas, with and without a preamp. And despite its running hot, I really wanted to like this box. But finally got frustrated and returned it to Fry's. Now waiting on the new epVision box to be released. Better design I hope.
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post #14637 of 16266 Old 03-21-2012, 12:22 PM
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Need a recommendation. I live in Studio City in Los Angeles. I need a new antenna for the outside. Would love an indoor if you can guarantee performance. Will be connected to a Directv AM-21. Someone in my family decided to throw away the old one when we re roofed the house. Couldnt figure out why Am-21 didnt work last night. When i checked it out this morning, i realized i had a missing antenna
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post #14638 of 16266 Old 03-21-2012, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humey View Post

Need a recommendation. I live in Studio City in Los Angeles. I need a new antenna for the outside. Would love an indoor if you can guarantee performance. Will be connected to a Directv AM-21. Someone in my family decided to throw away the old one when we re roofed the house. Couldnt figure out why Am-21 didnt work last night. When i checked it out this morning, i realized i had a missing antenna

Outdoor: RCA ANT-751 Medium Gain Hi-VHF/UHF Antenna...about 36"x36",
on sale at Walmart, check their website for store availability, can also
order for store pickup (and free return). Do NOT use a Preamp.

Indoor--likely but no guarantees are EVER possible given the variety of Unknownzzzzz:
Rabbit Ear/Loop types, see EV's Indoor Antenna Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779
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post #14639 of 16266 Old 03-21-2012, 02:34 PM
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+1 on the ANT751 suggestion. http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT751-Out...B5C/ref=sr_1_1

Indoor is impossible to predict, but worth a try if your TVFool results show strong (green) signals at your address. Try the budget RS rabbit ear/ loop. If unreliable, you probably have indoor electrical/electronics interference or building material issues blocking signal (stucco, foil insulation, etc.). If so, return the rabbit ear/loop antenna and get the ANT751.
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post #14640 of 16266 Old 03-21-2012, 04:24 PM
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An indoor antenna cannot see signals very well through double pane windows with low E-coatings. I can only receive stations when I open the window.
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