RCA DTC-210 ships now, no kidding... - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 601 Old 11-22-2004, 07:34 AM
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ccrutch,

Does the 210 come with a DVI to RGB adapter?
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post #182 of 601 Old 11-22-2004, 08:08 AM
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Has anyone noticed how much different the image is on the DVI output compared to the component regarding overscan? I switched mine over to DVI and had to do a major re-centering (in the 210) of the image to get my SD 4x3 picture into the center and have noticed that I now have some of the text on some programs cut off on the left side of the screen when on a 16x9 HD program. It seems like the picture is somewhat expanded or the HD image is not making the same shift that the SD picture makes. Anyone else notice this?

I haven’t noticed any blackouts or dropouts off of my dish channels, and rarely notice the horizontal line problem. I leave my 210 in 720p mode for my HD-ILA’s native mode.
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post #183 of 601 Old 11-22-2004, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lovebohn
ccrutch,

Does the 210 come with a DVI to RGB adapter?
nope!
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post #184 of 601 Old 11-22-2004, 03:05 PM
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I respectfully disagree since my plasma is not a front projector, and I did get the white line - but I just adjusted the centering on my plasma. It may not be the DCT-210's fault, though - that I agree with :-)

I think we are talking about 2 different horizontal line problems. One is a horizontal line midscreen which I see on my LCD screen and some others have mentioned. The other line is the top line that people have mentioned with their front projection.

I believe the midscreen line IS a result of the DCT 210. Outside of that, I don't know.
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post #185 of 601 Old 11-22-2004, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pokelahoma
Has anyone noticed how much different the image is on the DVI output compared to the component regarding overscan? I switched mine over to DVI and had to do a major re-centering (in the 210) of the image to get my SD 4x3 picture into the center and have noticed that I now have some of the text on some programs cut off on the left side of the screen when on a 16x9 HD program. It seems like the picture is somewhat expanded or the HD image is not making the same shift that the SD picture makes. Anyone else notice this?

I haven’t noticed any blackouts or dropouts off of my dish channels, and rarely notice the horizontal line problem. I leave my 210 in 720p mode for my HD-ILA’s native mode.
You would be better off performing picture centering from your TV. The DTC-210 is already pre-configured for absolute center by default and highly recommend turning off auto resolution. Since this receiver does not support 480i component, try S-Vid for SD and 720p for HD programming, no red line. In auto resolution on non RCA TV's, SD channels are converted to 480p no red line, but 480p conversion looks blury. Native 1080i has good PQ, but a red line. Perhaps on a RCA TV, awsome, or perhaps by design, to make any other manuf's TV look awful. The red line, or so I have been told, is an output side effect of the auto resolution sync signal for SYNCROSCAN compatible TV's.

If you have a 4:3 aspect ratio TV, the receiver should also be in 4:3 aspect ratio. In SD mode, the TV controls interpretation of aspect ratio. In DVI or component modes, the receiver controls aspect ratio. If the receiver is not in the proper aspect ratio while watching SD programming, you will get over scan. Incompatible SD aspect ratio's and TV receiver format modes can complicate matters. Make sure your TV is in always in normal mode, TV zoom/pan/fit/lb/pb off, control these modes from the receiver. If you want to stretch 4:3 SD content on a 16:9 TV via S-Vid, refered to as TV Wide, that's ok. Compensating on the receiver for mis-matched TV settings can result in the appearance of poor PQ.
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post #186 of 601 Old 11-23-2004, 06:09 AM
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Does anyone know the number for RCA's return dept. ? I think there is something wrong with my unit...All last night I had a 100% strength meter on my OTA for Monday Night Football, it blacked out at least 5-6 times in an hour...Switched to Channel 100 via DTV and that was even "blacking out" on ocassion. Bottom line is no matter what I am viewing, cable,OTA,DTV it is blacking out(black screen) for a split second then reappears...

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post #187 of 601 Old 11-23-2004, 07:33 AM
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The DTC-210 may be configured for dead center on the component outputs but on the DVI output it was way off to the right. I guess this is why they put the adjustment in there to move the image right and left. I had to really crank mine over to the left to get it centered, but according to the HDnet test patterns I am now dead on.

I did notice on the test pattern that running through the DVI I have 10% overscan on the right and left hand side. This is too much overscan and explains why I am losing text at the edges of the screen. I have seen people post overscan photos of my TV and the JVC HD-ILA overscan rates are a tad less than 5% on all the pictures I have seen posted. Has anyone else noticed this problem?
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post #188 of 601 Old 11-23-2004, 12:31 PM
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Well I made it home and wanted to try the suggestion for getting rid of the line at the top of my screen....

Sure enough if I switch the 210 from 720p to 1080i the line goes away.... unless I am watching a program broadcast in 720p and then the line comes back, but much less noticeable.

I am using a BenQ 8700+ with the receiver in 16x9 mode for HD and for 4x3 I am switching back and forth because I have not found any of the settings I am really happy with... I will probably wind up with pillar box for the 4x3 programming.

As Gary mentioned the receiver seems to dictate the screen format... when I was hooked up to cable with my BenQ I actually preferred SD 4x3 broadcasts in the BenQ's "wide" mode... unlike most tv's I have seen BenQ's wide mode seems to stretch the picture to fill the 16x9 frame without the horrible distortion you get with most tv's and receivers... the 210 certainly does not do nearly as good a job.

Kong, like you I am running my BenQ from the DVI output on my 210.... I found the picture to be way off center to the right also.

Hopefully as we discover these idiosyncrasies with the 210 someone from RCA will tap into this forum and DirecT can download some updated firmware for the units... I am told that DirecTV charges the manufacturers for each firmware download and will only allow them a maximum of 4 per year!

Steve

Ps. Kong where did you find the test patterns?

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post #189 of 601 Old 11-23-2004, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pokelahoma
The DTC-210 may be configured for dead center on the component outputs but on the DVI output it was way off to the right. I guess this is why they put the adjustment in there to move the image right and left. I had to really crank mine over to the left to get it centered, but according to the HDnet test patterns I am now dead on.

I did notice on the test pattern that running through the DVI I have 10% overscan on the right and left hand side. This is too much overscan and explains why I am losing text at the edges of the screen. I have seen people post overscan photos of my TV and the JVC HD-ILA overscan rates are a tad less than 5% on all the pictures I have seen posted. Has anyone else noticed this problem?
What are your DST-210 DVI and TV center settings? The DST adjusts in larger increments than most TV's. Example of an incorrect setting that would overscan to the left;

DTC - 4% increments, viewing 8%
--|-+----

TV - 2% increments
-----+---|- Result 6% overscan left, black or full to the right.
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post #190 of 601 Old 11-24-2004, 03:21 AM
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My Tv (BenQ 8700) centering is on "0",

but my 210 is on --I--+-----

I am using the DVI input and also the Component input to my projector.

Steve

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post #191 of 601 Old 11-24-2004, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HiHoStevo

I am told that DirecTV charges the manufacturers for each firmware download and will only allow them a maximum of 4 per year!

Steve

Ps. Kong where did you find the test patterns?
That makes sense. Makes sure manufacturers double check their firmware upgrades and prevents them from making too many mistakes, which would then cause more firmware updates and more bandwidth sucked up. I know when it was first installed, I had a firmware upgrade immediately to the latest version. The date is the day I brought it home.

As for the line across the top of the screen, I run my Sammy DLP in wide mode and never see it in 720p or 1080i. If I switch to expand mode, I see it at the top of the screen. I believe my wide mode has 5% overscan and expand only has 1-3% if I remember correctly.

So far this receiver is great for me. Much better then my old Sammy TS360.

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post #192 of 601 Old 11-24-2004, 08:03 AM
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The test patterns are broadcast on HDnet every Tuesday at 7ct for about 10min, you can find them listed on their program listings on their website. My TV does not have horizontal centering, only the 210 has a setting for this, however as I said I am dead on according to the test pattern. My problem is even being dead on centered I have 10% overscan on each side. I believe this problem is only in DVI mode since I never noticed any text being cut off and it did not require any centering prior to switching outputs. Next Tuesday morning I will hook up my component cable also and switch back and forth to verify this.

I have never seen any red line or any other lines at the edges of my screen, this could be due to the fact my TV has a normal 4% overscan.
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post #193 of 601 Old 11-25-2004, 08:28 AM
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Is anybody encountering audio dropouts with their DTC 210? I have brief audio dropouts on all the HD satelite channels. Occasionally I see some macro blocking or brief picture loss too. I've just read this whole post and for the most part my problem seems to be a non-issue for everybody else.
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post #194 of 601 Old 11-25-2004, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by HiHoStevo
My Tv (BenQ 8700) centering is on "0",

but my 210 is on --I--+-----

I am using the DVI input and also the Component input to my projector.

Steve
That's my point, if you adjust the DTC to center and then adjust centering on the TV, you will should get finer increments of adjustment without hitting that one increment on the DTC that jumps 4% to far to the left.
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post #195 of 601 Old 11-25-2004, 04:36 PM
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JDEATON, I also have the same problems as you do. Check back to page 5 and 6 to read my issues...I am going to call RCA tomorrow or Saturday and try to resolve these issues...Hopefully it can be fixed... .Latest Observations: While watching the Grinch in HDTV in 720p setting on receiver I was still getting a black screen ever so often. On the next commercial I switched the setting back to 1080i for the remainder of the program. I did not get the black screen, only got a signal breakup, probably because we had an extremely windy night...The only conclusion that I can make is that I correctly matched my panels "native" resolution which is 1080i.

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post #196 of 601 Old 11-27-2004, 07:04 PM
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I'm very surprised noone has mentioned the fact that the DTC-210 black levels are markedly lower on the component outpus (and probably the DMI as well) than on composite and s-video outputs. I split screen both inputs to my Panny PT-47 and could easily see the difference. I have to set brightness to 44 on component inputs, and 31 on S-video. Unfortunately, the rule is, crank up brightness and lose color saturation. And the black levels seem shallow... missing subtle hues. The black levels are equally low on both SD and High Def material.

This problem was even worse on my old Dish Network 811 high def receiver... which made me convert to D*. While I'm 10 times happier with the RCA DTC-210 and DirecTV's service, the black level issue is a real annoyance.

Anyone know of a secret service menu whereby brightness, contrast, color, etc. can be tweaked on the DTC-210?


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post #197 of 601 Old 11-28-2004, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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You can increase the sub bright in service mode on your TV to resolve the black level issue and once increased you will probably have to drop the contrast down a bit in order to acquire the appropriate balance. Unfortunatly you will probably need to request a service call from the retailer you purchased the TV from or order a service manual. If you purchased an extended warranty with the set, the service call should be minimal.
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post #198 of 601 Old 11-28-2004, 07:43 PM
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For Kong and Crazz, I am also seeing a horizontal "line" running across the screen of my Hitachi 60V500 at exactly halfway between the top and bottom. Upon closer inspection, it doesn't really appear to be a line, but more like the joint where the edges of 2 picture halves are joined and one (possibly more?) line of pixels is missing so the halves don't line up exactly. It only seems to appear on certain programs/channels and I haven't been able to identify a pattern yet. FYI, I am feeding my TV 1080i (when applicable, since ABC and ESPN are usually 720p) through DVI.

Let me know if you find a solution or workaround.
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post #199 of 601 Old 11-28-2004, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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And you disabled auto resolution on the DTC and/or your pic is centered from the TV instead of the receiver and/or your HDTV is not a Sony? Have you tried component??
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post #200 of 601 Old 11-28-2004, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Whitaker
You can increase the sub bright in service mode on your TV to resolve the black level issue and once increased you will probably have to drop the contrast down a bit in order to acquire the appropriate balance. Unfortunatly you will probably need to request a service call from the retailer you purchased the TV from or order a service manual. If you purchased an extended warranty with the set, the service call should be minimal.
I prefer not to modify my TV to compensate for a poor input signal. The problem is that if I modify the brightness within the service menu of my TV, it affects ALL inputs. Therefore it will throw off my AVIA-calibrated DVD signal (making it too bright), as well as my other inputs (VCR, Media MVP, etc.).

This problem seems to plague several of the new high def boxes on the market... namely that material shown through the component or DVI outputs gets black levels that are too low and without depth. The s-video and composite outputs are closer to normal, however.


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post #201 of 601 Old 11-28-2004, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Reported black levels and pic center issues seem to plague the majority of HDTV's. Set top boxes go through 3x QA to accomodate standards, most HDTV's do not. Where was your HDTV manuf manuf'd, where was your set top manuf'd? Most cable and DBS set top boxes are manuf'd in the US, most HDTV's are not.

Up your sub bright and be happy.
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post #202 of 601 Old 11-29-2004, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Whitaker
Reported black levels and pic center issues seem to plague the majority of HDTV's. Set top boxes go through 3x QA to accomodate standards, most HDTV's do not. Where was your HDTV manuf manuf'd, where was your set top manuf'd? Most cable and DBS set top boxes are manuf'd in the US, most HDTV's are not.

Up your sub bright and be happy.
Interesting concept... component to American TV's can be interpreted differently from component on foreign TV's?!?!? What good is a standard if different companies interpret it differently? I've never heard of that problem.

I don't see how this is my TV's fault. I used my Panny RP56 and the Avia DVD to calibrate my Panny PT47wx53 HDTV to 31 for brightness (right in the middle) on the component input. But then I put the RCA DTC-210 through the same inputs and see a darker picture. And your theory does not explain the lack of detail within the black levels of the STB. That's typically an internal issue with the STB decoder circuitry.

There are many forum threads (like satelliteguys.us.com) that talk about the component/dvi black level problems on STB boxes. None mention that the TV is the issue. The answer typically becomes: wait until the next automated firmware update and cross your fingers. I'm hoping for something manual I can do instead.


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post #203 of 601 Old 11-29-2004, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Whitaker
And you disabled auto resolution on the DTC and/or your pic is centered from the TV instead of the receiver and/or your HDTV is not a Sony? Have you tried component??
Auto-resolution is off, but I had to use the DTC's built-in picture centering feature as I don't think my Hitachi (LCD) has that ability. But the only correction I made was left to right (not up and down), and even when zero'd out in the default "center" according to the DTC, the horizontal line is still there. I may try the 720p setting to see if that helps, but would prefer to use 1080i if possible. I had component connected briefly immediately following installation, but have since run DVI. I may try that also (but again, would prefer to use DVI to keep signal digital).
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post #204 of 601 Old 11-29-2004, 03:40 PM
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Had our 210 for a couple of months. A couple of observations with our Sony 57WS550 CRT Rear Projection TV using Component input:

Auto resolution off, 210 at 1080i, all programs exhibit Horizontal line in Center of Screen (H line). Picture quality cleanest, best in my opinion, picture has "snap". Verified consistent vertical ghost / bars in scenes with low contrast, mid tone backgrounds, not as apparent in 1080i, but there.

Auto resolution on, 210 at 720p, no programs exhibit H line. Picture quality "softer", "no snap". Verified consistent vertical ghost / bars in scenes with low contrast, mid tone backgrounds, more apparent in 720p.


Hoping DVI connection will solve problems, in an earlier response, DVI cleaned up the ghost / bars, not sure of the H line?

Yes, Toslink is working on my unit, and a couple of others I've seen.

Using the internal Sony ATSC Tuner, no H line or ghost bars on any OTA material, yet on DTC-210.

H line = 's Very annoying on Football (or any vertical panning for that matter)!
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post #205 of 601 Old 11-29-2004, 05:29 PM
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Has anyone compared the DVI, VGA, and component outputs on the same TV? I'd be curious to know if the DVI/VGA looks better and doesn't exhibit the low brightness problem of the components. If so, I might consider purchasing a DVI/vga to component adapter (if one exists)... though I have a feeling the cost would not be justified.


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post #206 of 601 Old 11-29-2004, 06:29 PM
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St.LouisRod, I have compared component to RGB...The component connection is visibly lacking in my opinion("no snap" is a good term.) Color has less color saturation and sharpness. I tried the component for the simple-ease-of use with my Denon 2805 doing the component switching. I tried directly from my RCA DTC-210 and from the receiver, both not as good as RGB. HAS anybody complained to RCA of these problems???

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post #207 of 601 Old 11-29-2004, 07:38 PM
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Can someone post a digi-pic of this horizontal line problem? This could be a showstopper for me in getting the 210, since my setup currently only supports 1080i component.
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post #208 of 601 Old 11-29-2004, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I talked to D* about this issue today who are now receiving more reports about the interlaced mode horizontal line problem. D* is discussing with RCA, or so I am told. RCA was recommending turning off auto resolution to disable Syncroscan. Tested. A friend at CC allowed me to run some tests tonight but had to bring a 210 receiver with.

Results for interlaced modes; RCA HDTV perfect, Samsung HDTV line, Sony HDTV PQ awful w/noticable pixel distortions almost looked like this receiver forced the TV into a sub auto focus or auto convergence mode. All tested models looked fine in progressive mode, but PQ was blurry.

Wild speculation, but a designed transparent DTC horizontal sync signal to enhance the manuf's own HDTV's, now appears not so transparent on non RCA HDTV models and I know RCA has been touting their new auto letter box and AVR (Accurate Visual Reality) technologies with a picture of the DTC next to their new flag ship HDTV. Dark levels; fixed by upping sub bright.
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post #209 of 601 Old 11-30-2004, 06:57 AM
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Ok, so this morning I got more scientific with the HDnet test patterns and now know that the component output gives me 8% overscan on the sides, while the DVI gives me 10% overscan. I have photos of others with my same TV using DVD test patterns showing overscan at 4%, so I am thinking the problem lies in the 210. I actually expected the component to be more than 2% better; either of those percentages seem too high. Has anyone else examined this issue? This is enough overscan that I even lose some text in the corners on some HD programming, and the edges of most sports banners disappear off the screen.
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post #210 of 601 Old 11-30-2004, 07:38 AM
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Observations with Toshiba 62HM84 DLP monitor. Auto-resolution off.

720p: Faint vertical bands are apparent in some homogeneous or very low contrast images. No horizontal line. Vertical bands vanish through DVI but darks are badly crushed (this may be an issue with the tv).

1080i: Faint vertical bands are much less apparent. Horizontal line appears often and can be extremely distracting. It looks downright awful during any pre-snap camera pan during a football game.

For Gerald C, if my display could only take 1080i the horizontal line would be a showstopper for me. Hopefully, a fix for this is coming soon.

Does everyone see the faint vertical bands through component or is this a defect issue? It sounds like the h-line is a design flaw.
racedog is offline  
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