DirecTV MPEG4 Installation & Hardware - Master Topic! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by gkurcon
Well let's see:

D* is currently providing bit-rates around 19Mbps and under.

802.11g is rated at 54Mbps, but realistically is more often around 30Mbps...

802.11n is around the corner, and is promising to double the speed of the g standard, so something around 100Mbps, or FastEthernet speeds.

By the time this comes out there should be an established protocol on the market that can handle the bit-rate required for HD.
I have a 802.11 Super G Atheros that has 108Mbps output on my laptop and from my Netgear router. So the technology is here for 100+ Mbps that can be easily tailored to their new HMC. Hats off to D*!!!

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post #92 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 06:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by gkurcon
Well let's see:

D* is currently providing bit-rates around 19Mbps and under.

802.11g is rated at 54Mbps, but realistically is more often around 30Mbps...

802.11n is around the corner, and is promising to double the speed of the g standard, so something around 100Mbps, or FastEthernet speeds.

By the time this comes out there should be an established protocol on the market that can handle the bit-rate required for HD.
The problem is that when the signal drops the bit rate follows.

-Robert
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post #93 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by igreg
Could someone explain to me what's the big deal about HDLIL? I would think almost all the population can receive HD either over the air or through the national feeds. Am I mistaken in this belief? Thanks.
You're kidding, right? You must not have been reading this board for very long.

I can't come up with all the national networks in HD if you added up all the local HDs within 500 miles of me! I can't wait for HD LIL. I had to "move" to get the HD networks I have from NY & LA. And that is not even possible anymore thanks to our worthless congress, but I'm grandfathered in for the little I have.

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post #94 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smthkd
they still have a little room left on current sats for about 3 or 4 HD Nationals
If you take into account the NFLST-HD bandwidth they have room for 8-9 HD channels.

Which of course adds another question into the mix. Will they use the new MPEG-4 for the ST-HD feed next fall? If they already are giving new STB's to 1/3 of the HD customers, how many more ST-HD customers could there be?

Or since it sounds like this transistion could be taking place during the 3Q, will they keep ST-HD on -2 as to not interupt the season? This would be my guess, but that also means very few national HD channels added this year in -2 as they will need to reserve the bandwidth.

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post #95 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by herdfan
This would be my guess, but that also means very few national HD channels added this year in -2 as they will need to reserve the bandwidth.
LonghornXP is saying on SatelliteGuys.us that they "plan to have new national HD channels launched before the end of the year right about the sametime they actually rollout their home media server." Whether or not you choose to believe what he says is up to you, but if it's true, I'm sincerely disappointed...

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post #96 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
The problem is that when the signal drops the bit rate follows.

-Robert
I hope it will not be 802.11 because it is not designed for in the house applications with its high multipath fading along with data rate drops. 802.11 also does not have guaranteed packet arrival times needed for audio and video.

Instead I hope they will be using 802.15.3 ultra wideband which is designed for combined in house audio/video/computer. There are more than a hundred companies on board and my guess is that the chips will be low cost.
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post #97 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 08:46 PM
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I live in green bay wisconsin but get chicago locals.

does anyone know if the spot beam will change at all??

i would love to have my chicago local come thru satellite but am worried that the changeover will mess up what i have going!!!

any info would help me out a great deal as to whether i go mpeg-4 or not!
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post #98 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 08:58 PM
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I haven't heard any mention of OTA (ATSC) support in the new box(es). Is there any chance that D* will abandon OTA in the pursuit of selling LIL?
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post #99 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerald C
I haven't heard any mention of OTA (ATSC) support in the new box(es). Is there any chance that D* will abandon OTA in the pursuit of selling LIL?
The Home Media Center has two ATSC tuners (along with FOUR DirecTV tuners) in it, so I assume that the new stand-alone box will have one.

BTW, I asked this same question myself sometime in the last few months.

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post #100 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 09:09 PM
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HD folks... Chill... You;re getting a new box free.

TiVo folks.. Chill.. Your upgrade path will be to the new DVR.

HDTiVo folks... Chill... There will be a stand alone MPEG-4 DVR by Christmas

For those who waited and still have a grand to kick around for the HDTiVo.. Hold your cash. For about $1600 for the main receiver and $299 per room you'll have whole house HD DVR by Christmas.

The Home Media Center has two ATSC tuners (along with FOUR DirecTV tuners) in it, so I assume that the new stand-alone box will have one.

This is correct.

For those expecting wireless at the onset, the answer is no. It will work with your home network if you have one and my understanding is it will pull music files and photo's from a networked computer.

P.S.. Who was the idiot claiming the network unit wouldn't be HD capable? Someone shoot him/her

More HD please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #101 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snoopy4
HD folks... Chill... You're getting a new box free.
Yes, but being someone who still doesn't have their SD locals, and not expecting their HD locals until 2007, I'm wondering WHEN I will be getting the new box and dish.

Quote:
Originally posted by Snoopy4
TiVo folks.. Chill.. Your upgrade path will be to the new DVR.
I have NO intention of replacing my (SD) DirecTIVOs, and until at LEAST 2007, I shouldn't have to.

Quote:
Originally posted by Snoopy4
HDTiVo folks... Chill... There will be a stand alone MPEG-4 DVR by Christmas
I have no HDTivo, but I'd like to have an HD-DVR, preferably a HDTivo, but that doesn't seem like an option anymore I'm afraid, and therefore curious as to what choices I will have when that time comes. Will it be a new HDTivo, will it be the HMC or will it be a NDS HD-DVR?!

Quote:
Originally posted by Snoopy4
For about $1600 for the main receiver and $299 per room you'll have whole house HD DVR by Christmas.
I have NO intention of paying $1600 for a receiver, and I SURE as heck ain't interested in the $299 extra units since I'm EXTREMELY happy with my DirecTIVO's. What will the other DVR(s) be priced?

Quote:
Originally posted by Snoopy4
P.S.. Who was the idiot claiming the network unit wouldn't be HD capable? Someone shoot him/her
If I remember correctly, I have NEVER read anything about them being able to, you'd think that that would be mentioned in the information about the HMC.

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post #102 of 3267 Old 01-27-2005, 10:18 PM
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If I remember correctly, I have NEVER read anything about them being able to, you'd think that that would be mentioned in the information about the HMC.

From the conference call:

First, since the Home Gateway will provide, HDTV, DVR and other home media services throughout the house, our upgrade or retention costs should be lower.

The initial release on it said SD and HD but too many people in here tried to over-analyze the issue. As for the $1600 price tag, much of it would be absorbed by the trade in, that's just the outright purchase price. Most likely it would be the same as Spaceway Internet in terms of cost. Think of it this way... Each HD reciever, and each TiVo Unit traded would net you a remote unit, each SD would net you a remote with $100 charge and the hub would be $699 with a 2 year sub and $20 a month. Or you get a whole system for $20 a month forever, much like cable charges for their DVR's.

More HD please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #103 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 05:34 AM
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SO I have an RCA DTC-100 that I only use for OTA now since I got my HD-Tivo.

I guess I should get the sucker activated so I can get a new receiver? I had it activated for a couple of years and just recently dropped it.
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post #104 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 06:07 AM
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First I'll put my cards on the table, I'm an HD customer using an old DTC 100 receiver. Most of the HD I watch is OTA, because I'm not into sports and the other HD on DirecTV is of little interest to me at present. Also I'm in the DC market, so I will get LiL from Spaceway as part of the phase 1 of the roll-out. I do have two SD DVRs, a UTV and a DTivo. So I'm fairly dispassionate about the changes, though I am putting off the purchase of an HD-DVR until the dust settles and the HMC is available.

From the various announcements at the CES, the financial phone-cast yesterday and the leaks that I've read here and on other forums I understand that the following will happen:

1) Sometime in the second half of calendar year 2005 DirecTV will start broadcasting the HD LiLs for the first 12 markets using MPEG4 on the new Spaceway satellite.
2) Customers in these markets will be able to sign-up for Spaceway services. These people will get replacement HD STBs, HD DVRs and dishes. I am assuming that there will be a charge and commitment for the Spaceway service, that the swap-out will be on a no-cost one-for-one like-for-like, that is if you have a current HD-DVR you will get an MPEG4 HD-DVR. I would like to know if there will also be an upgrade path - could I get a credit for my HD-STB toward an HD-DVR?
3) DirecTV may also put new channels on the Spaceway satellite, so customers in other markets could also benefit from them. Again I would expect that these customers will have the same options as the top twelve markets, just no HD LiLs as yet.
4) By the end of 2005 the new Home Media Center (aka Home Gateway) will be available. This will be available for lease or rental. Spec includes four HD satellite tuners, two ATSC OTA tuners and UCentric software. Initially it will be able to support SD-only clients on a wired network. Plans include HD clients and some type of wireless network. I don't know the number of clients supported or the type of wired network.
5) Additional markets will be rolled out over the next couple of years.

So when the new HD-STBs becomes available I'll be calling DirecTV customer retention to ask about their plans for upgrading my DTC-100 and should I wait for the HMC?

If I already owned an HD-Tivo would I panic? No, because DirecTV will be replacing those with the new HD-DVR. Maybe if I liked the Tivo software I would worry that the new box wouldn't be as good - Tivo users will just have to get used to the new interface.

I may even purchase an HD-Tivo before the Spaceway is available, I know it won't become obsolete, because DirecTV will replace it, and I would like to be able to record HD now. All depends on the tax rebate next month :-)

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post #105 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 06:10 AM
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I've never liked leasing but honestly, if they offered the Home Gateway/Media Center for $20 a month I think I'd probably jump on that over buying. Would be especially easy then to swap out boxes to newer technology every couple years at no cost to me. Hmmmmmm....

I look forward to trading in my old E-86. Although being in market #39 it might not be until 2007 for my locals. But I get them OTA anyway. If they offered the upgrade and/or lease plan right away to anyone I'll be all over it.

As for HD-Tivo owners, look, the box will still work. If you don't want or don't care about HD locals whenever your market goes up then you shouldn't care either. If they put new national HD channels on Spaceway only then you'll have to make a choice. At some point about 3-5 years down the road all HD will be on Spaceway, but unitl then, your Tivo works just fine.

From what panther posted about the conference call as well as CES info, this is my take on the whole thing and nationals:
1) They will put a few more up on the current sats (ESPN2-HD and ABC-HD most likely soon). Maybe a couple more. Everyone has access to these.
2) Early 2nd half of this year the first Spaceway will be up and the first 12 markets for HD-LIL will start rolling out. They will have MPEG4 receivers available for those subs. They however will not have a MPEG4-DVR out yet most likely. HD-Tivo oweners will just have to wait. Being the top 12 markets, a good majority of those people probably get decent OTA reception anyway, so it's a good stop gap. And if you OTA then you probably don't care about Spaceway until some nationals go up anyway.
3) At the end of the year, 1st Qtr 2006, if all goes well the HMC and thus MPEG4-DVR's will be available. More local markets will roll out. And most likely some nationals will start to go up on Spaceway if available. Now those affected with HD-Tivo's will have the upgrade path available to the new HD-DVR. Should they choose to take it or not is up to them.

And has been stated. There are only 25,000 HD-Tivo's in service. That is *nothing*. Not even a drop in the bucket. DirecTV will offer an upgrade path but in all honestly if a few decide to leave they aren't going to notice.

4) I don't know why a couple people have mentioned the SD-DirecTivo's in this conversation since the SD channels are not effected by any of this. Maybe 5-8 years down the road they may start looking at switching the SD bandwidth to MPEG4 as well, but it's not on their radar at all right now and honestly, it would be a total pain to replace 30 million receivers for 13 million poeple. With HD it's nothing as there are only 500K HD subs, most with only 1 box, and only 25K HD-DirecTivo's. At these levels these are easy to replace and won't be that huge a cost to them in the overall scheme of things.

EDIT: Looks like someone else did the same thing I did. We're pretty close to so maybe we got it right? :D

Scott
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post #106 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 06:44 AM
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ABC-HD has been up for a while.
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post #107 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gkurcon
Well let's see:

D* is currently providing bit-rates around 19Mbps and under.

802.11g is rated at 54Mbps, but realistically is more often around 30Mbps...

802.11n is around the corner, and is promising to double the speed of the g standard, so something around 100Mbps, or FastEthernet speeds.

By the time this comes out there should be an established protocol on the market that can handle the bit-rate required for HD.
Don't forget under MPEG-4 the bitrate will be lower for the same resolutions. I've heard 8-9 Mbps.
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post #108 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 07:30 AM
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D* mentioned before that their DVR's will not have a 30 sec. skip function (specifically said no work-around code either). That's gonna be my biggest problem - I can't imagine how to conveniently watch without that feature.

I'm also curious about the number of lines from the sat required for the HG server. With 4 D* tuners, will it require 3 lines and basically have a multiswitch self contained? Will the server to client path be exclusively Cat 5, or will there be a coax option? Will the "networking" of the client(s)/server be as much a PITA as my current home computer network?

It would have to be a very generous upgrade offer, or the number of National HD channels avail. via MPEG4 vs. MPEG2 would have to be significant for me to convert at the prices specified (even with $35 in mirror fees I pay a month - if mirror fees remain for all the clients, it is even more doubtful I'd switch).
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post #109 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 07:40 AM
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CPanther:

According to this post, for the HG server, mirroring fees remain, DVR fees are waived, and free upgrade to the HG for HD-Tivo users.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showpost...5&postcount=28

I believe that D* has already stated that it would only require one line from dish to server and you get full functionality of all tuners.


Scott
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post #110 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
I believe that D* has already stated that it would only require one line from dish to server and you get full functionality of all tuners.
So, five LNB's are combined down to one line? I'd love to understand what kind of multiplexing they would be using to achieve that.

Don
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post #111 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vurbano
This is great news for D* HD subs. If they could ever apply mpeg4 accross everything they could have top notch PQ and a vast amount of HD.

somebody pinch me :D

Seriously Vurbano, Kudos to you for posting something positive about D*.
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post #112 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by donyoop
So, five LNB's are combined down to one line? I'd love to understand what kind of multiplexing they would be using to achieve that.

Don
....and allow separate tuning of 4 D* tuners. I'd love to have been privy to that technology a couple of years ago.
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post #113 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snoopy4
...

For those who waited and still have a grand to kick around for the HDTiVo.. Hold your cash. For about $1600 for the main receiver and $299 per room you'll have whole house HD DVR by Christmas....


P.S.. Who was the idiot claiming the network unit wouldn't be HD capable? Someone shoot him/her

there's an interesting post at dbsforums with remarks from some mucky muck at uncentric. The guy basically said he believes they can get the whole home system done so cheap that it isn't out of the realm of posibility that D* would use the system as the new defualt for the "get 4 rooms for free".

So I think your $2500 esitmate for 4 rooms is a little high.


About your PS- all the D* reps at CES were saying the new Unit WOULD NOT have HD Clinets availible at launch. That it wa spossible later but for the launch only the main unit will do HD.
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post #114 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scott R. Scherr
CPanther:

According to this post, for the HG server, mirroring fees remain, DVR fees are waived, and free upgrade to the HG for HD-Tivo users.
I'll have to wait and see what kind of upgrade deal they give for HD-Tivo, 2 HD STBs, and 5 SD STB's. Something tells me my situation will not be addressed specifically by Marketing. I'll likely get the same "maximum" trade-in credit as an HD-Tivo owner, and the additional STBs will not make the transition any cheaper.
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post #115 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by donyoop
So, five LNB's are combined down to one line? I'd love to understand what kind of multiplexing they would be using to achieve that.

Don

THere are rumors of just 2 lines required from the Dish- dont recall where the actual posts are but i guess if you search you can see them- I saw several posts about that from CES. I believe they were here at avs, but might be dbsforums.

Still pretty amazing to do 2 lines from the dish consdering you are looking at the potential for 5 or 6 slots (3 KU, and 3 Ka- never mind 95 and 72.5)

I think they have to do something though- even if they stack, having 5 or 6 lines down the side of my house makes me shiver- my clean D* install wold look like one of the spaghetti monstrosities you see for E*.

Also- there the one line IN to the media center sounds doable by either double stacking and having the multiswitch dynamically stack (and it sounds like E* already has a swith that dynamically stacks). Or maybe they even plan fancier multiswitches that can pull out individual transponders. If that's the case consdering you can get like 32 transponders on one cable- a single cable from the dish would could actutally handle 32 tuners, enough for a decent sized sports bar- so a single cable dish would be totally possible. Stacking multiple transponders sounds like the multiswitches would cost more then the media center itself "but one never knows do one?"
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post #116 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by michaelk
About your PS- all the D* reps at CES were saying the new Unit WOULD NOT have HD Clinets availible at launch. That it wa spossible later but for the launch only the main unit will do HD.
Right, no HD *clients* but the server *is* HD and would serve as the receiver (or client if you will) for the first TV (which would be the HD set for those that have one).

Scott
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post #117 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonscott87
4) I don't know why a couple people have mentioned the SD-DirecTivo's in this conversation since the SD channels are not effected by any of this.
I planned to get an HDTivo this fall once I paid off some bills and I was hoping for the price to go down also. Now that MPEG-4 announcements have been made, that doesn't look like that will happen, and so while I like the information I have read about the HMC, it really doesn't interest me because I have no use for the "client" units since I do not intend to get rid of the SD-DirecTIVOs. One because I'm VERY happy with the units, and two being that my Mom who uses one of them would NOT be willing to get rid of the DirecTIVO. Besides, for the prices being said, I have NO interest in paying that much, which means that unless a new HDTivo comes out, or NDS has an HD-DVR come out, then I'm left out of a viable HD-DVR from DirecTV.

~Alan

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post #118 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gordon
............unless a new HDTivo comes out, or NDS has an HD-DVR come out, then I'm left out of a viable HD-DVR from DirecTV.

~Alan
There will be a DirecTV HD-DVR, probably around the same time as the Spaceway satellites come online.

This was displayed at the CES, according to various posts, but confusion reigns because people get it confused with the HMC.

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post #119 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 11:15 AM
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On the wireless aspect, that's weird. One reason stated for D* not doing networking on TiVos was so they would not have to support home networks. And now they want to support *wireless*?!

They better have a specialized group for this; firstline CSRs can't even understand that digital captions are done by the STB, not the 'TV set'.

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post #120 of 3267 Old 01-28-2005, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew_J_M
There will be a DirecTV HD-DVR, probably around the same time as the Spaceway satellites come online.

This was displayed at the CES, according to various posts, but confusion reigns because people get it confused with the HMC.
All the info I've seen about the new HD DVR said 'late 2005, perhaps 2006 if it slips', and HD LILs are supposed to be early second half 2005, no?

It would be good if it *was* out at the same time, since there is no way to record HD LILs on any other timetable!

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