Any recent 5th generation receiver chip news? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 433 Old 03-13-2005, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Any recent 5th generation receiver chip news? I know this is an old topic, but I would like to know if there is any movement at all for LG or Casper chip receivers.

IB
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post #2 of 433 Old 03-13-2005, 02:55 PM
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Look for one in the New Directv MPEG 4 STB's soon

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post #3 of 433 Old 03-14-2005, 06:15 AM
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Thought I saw a post by Bob Miller at OpenDTV mentioning he was getting one. -- John
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post #4 of 433 Old 03-14-2005, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like clarity and that thread was difficult to follow.

Who is making a 5th generation LG chip receiver and how much does it cost?

Do you have a link to a product announcement?

Is it a expensive satellite box or a stand alone terrestrial unit?

IB
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post #5 of 433 Old 03-14-2005, 04:24 PM
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I'd like to get one for my multipath-plagued NYC location. Can only recall from memory that someone speculated that the Miller receiver was a Hamut (sp?) model, but don't think anyone pinned this down. Seemed to be more a test acquisition than a store/online purchase. -- John
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post #6 of 433 Old 03-14-2005, 06:01 PM
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I think Bob mentioned he did get the box but he provided no details. And then disappeared.

Are you out there Bob? Click twice if you can hear me but can't talk.

- Tom

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post #7 of 433 Old 03-14-2005, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Today Bob posted on a newsgroup that no 5th generation LG chip was available in a stand alone OTA HDTV tuner.

IB
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post #8 of 433 Old 03-14-2005, 06:27 PM
 
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I understand that the new DIRECTV H20 HD STB will have LG's new 5th generation ATSC chip set.

-Robert
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post #9 of 433 Old 03-14-2005, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Yea, but then you pay for all the satellite stuff. That's no good for people who just want OTA. I want/need a stand alone OTA box for $200. or less. I am sure LG will put one out some day with a 5th chip.

IB
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post #10 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 03:55 AM
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Quote:


Today Bob posted on a newsgroup that no 5th generation LG chip was available in a stand alone OTA HDTV tuner.

Bob's opendtv post

Quote:


Our latest test of a receiver using LG's 5th generation chip but not
made by LG was a major disappointment. It seems that having the LG 5th
generation chip is not what made the LG prototype we tested last summer
work so well.

We took it over to Mark Schubin's apartment and he can tell you what his
experience with it was. ...

It looks like whatever was tested as a 5th gen box at Mark Shubin's apartment last year was not just the new 5th gen chip but likely had some other special support circuitry added that I'm guessing is not yet cost effective to make.

Bummer. Back to waiting for Moore's Law to fix things.

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post #11 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 04:19 AM
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It's interesting that Miller is being discussed here at all. From what I've read of his postings on Usenet, IMHO the guy belongs in a straitjacket.
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post #12 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 07:26 AM
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One word: Ugh.
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post #13 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Bummer. Back to waiting for Moore's Law to fix things.

Well, I saw today that Best Buy has a Toshiba SD-5970 up-converting DVD player on sale for $150. Sooner or later you will be able to buy a HDTV receiver that really works for $100.

IB
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post #14 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 01:04 PM
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As an engineer I can tell you that he is not wrong about the issues with ATSC reception in areas of high multipath.

I too have been "forbidden" to discuss the great receiver debate.

It won't matter much longer anyway as traditional spectrum users are being regulated out of business by an FCC run by legal beagles who would change the laws of physics if they could..

Just how much longer can the industry wait for a receiver that lives up to the promises made in 1999 and 2000.

People on here blame broadcasters for all the problems in DTV, They complain about reception issues and the contortions they have to go through to get even basic functionality but no one complains about poor receiver design..its always the broadcasters fault...and in spite of what you think NAB doesn't represent all broadcasters.
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post #15 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 02:01 PM
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Unless the broadcasters say otherwise (and allow their engineers to do so) we can only assume they support the current directions in receiver technology.

- Tom

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post #16 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 02:24 PM
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I'm not sure we have enough information about this to jump to conclusions. Bob was told this was an LG 5th gen chip, but Mark Schubin said they couldn't tell by looking at it. Here are Mark Schubin's comments regarding the test at his aparement:
Quote:


- maybe it wasn't a 5th-generation LG chip,
- maybe LG is doing stuff besides the 5th-generation chip that is important,
- maybe the broadcasters were doing strange things that day, or
- maybe some new building has created a new set of awkward multipath.

I think it is premature to conclude anything about the LG 5th gen chipset receivers at this time.
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post #17 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 03:08 PM
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I think it is premature to conclude anything about the LG 5th gen chipset receivers at this time.

It is premature to conclude anything about any ATSC chipsets unless they are already shipping and we can play with them ourselves. There have been to many hyped announcements and subsequent disappointments for me to believe otherwise.

I think I'm guilty of (briefly) being one of the early chearleaders for the LG 5th gen chip. But the next time I'll definitely wait for solid reports of an actual selling consumer product. If that happens to be a functional version of the LG 5th (or 6th, or 7th) gen that would be just fine with me, but I'm no longer going to count on it.

In the mean time I guess it is safe to say they are not here yet.

- Tom

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post #18 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 03:39 PM
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My point is how much longer can we ( the industry) afford to wait ..

DTV like any information transmission system, require both ends to perform in order for the system to work as advertised.

Broadcasters have no control over the receiver end of the link...

No one wants to hear from engineers...

The facts cannot be allowed to interfere with other motives.
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post #19 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 03:46 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by inky blacks
Sooner or later you will be able to buy a HDTV receiver that really works for $100.

IB

IB, I'm sorry that you've been having such a tough time with OTA HDTV.

What receivers have you tried at your location that haven't worked due to multipath issues? What type of antennas- indoor.. outdoor..??
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post #20 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 06:20 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by trbarry
Unless the broadcasters say otherwise (and allow their engineers to do so) we can only assume they support the current directions in receiver technology.

- Tom


In my case the ethics code for the Commonwealth of Kentucky prevented us from making a formal statement on the matter. (could have been considered an endorsement)

I'm afraid the real agenda is to eliminate all legacy users of spectrum ( those who got "free" spectrum) and re-farm it all to either new services or make the old users pay in some form.. The cost of the DTV transition for the incumbent broadcasters has been enormous and yet the receiver manufacturers ( who stand to make the most money from the transition) are still not in the game..


As I have said before, broadcasters who think they are in the television business are out of business..broadcasters who realize they are in the content distribution business will survive.

Traditional television is over..
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post #21 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 06:34 PM
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Quote:


I'm afraid the real agenda is to eliminate all legacy users of spectrum ( those who got "free" spectrum) and re-farm it all to either new services or make the old users pay in some form.. The cost of the DTV transition for the incumbent broadcasters has been enormous and yet the receiver manufacturers ( who stand to make the most money from the transition) are still not in the game..


As I have said before, broadcasters who think they are in the television business are out of business..broadcasters who realize they are in the content distribution business will survive.

Traditional television is over..

I just can't sit back and read this doom-and-gloom broadcaster junk without commenting. It takes quite an imagination to assume someone or some organization has a "real agenda to elminate all legacy users of spectrum and re-farm it out". Who are you accusing of this conspiracy? Why do they want to do it? How can you ignore the social and political consequences of the loss of free OTA television if it were to happen?

Folks, traditional television will be here for a long long time. And the receivers work for the vast majority of viewers. Relax and enjoy
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post #22 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 06:41 PM
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In my case the ethics code for the Commonwealth of Kentucky prevented us from making a formal statement on the matter. (could have been considered an endorsement)

And I'm sure there are a myriad of other similar cases where a Junior Woodchuck merit badge oath or disapproving glance from a boss suppressed the urge to comment on the emperor's new clothes.

But if the NAB members (not just the networks) truly and collectively believed we needed something different I suspect they could find a way to say so.

But not if they believe going along will get them permanant multiple must carry on cable instead of the ability to broadcast to an actual receiving digital audience.

The problem is that neither the NAB nor the CE members believe there is money to be made in ATSC reception and that is becoming a self-fullfilling prophecy.

The networks have their own agenda.

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post #23 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 06:58 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Rich Peterson
I just can't sit back and read this doom-and-gloom broadcaster junk without commenting. It takes quite an imagination to assume someone or some organization has a "real agenda to elminate all legacy users of spectrum and re-farm it out". Who are you accusing of this conspiracy? Why do they want to do it? How can you ignore the social and political consequences of the loss of free OTA television if it were to happen?

Folks, traditional television will be here for a long long time. And the receivers work for the vast majority of viewers. Relax and enjoy

Okay from the top:

1. Broadcast Flag mandate- Broadcasters are to be held liable if the content they transmit somehow ends up on the Internet.

2. Must carry- debate- Stations that generate new additional content are blocked from 75% of their potential audience.

3. BPL vs HAM Radio users and all legacy users below 30 Mhz. ( see BPL information at http://www.arrl.org)

4. AM radio was forced to install high frequency filters to reduce audio quality in the 1990s under the promise that radio receivers would be improved with better audio processing to make up for the loss.. didn't happen..

5. Clear Channel recently ordered all its AM stations not running music programming to reduce their audio bandwidth to 5 kHz. and 6 kHz for the music stations. They have also stated they are going to push to make this a national mandate.

6. Look at how many community radio stations have been transfered to nationwide conglomerates.

7. The only requirement is a single FTA DTV program stream at least as good as the analog ...what about when the analog is gone?


The goal of the FCC has changed.. its new role is revenue oriented:

The old services eat spectrum and that spectrum is worth money to Congress.. so to get the spectrum back (so they can auction it) they have to remove the old users..

Kinda like what was done in the 1800's with the Native Americans..
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post #24 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 07:03 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by trbarry
And I'm sure there are a myriad of other similar cases where a Junior Woodchuck merit badge oath or disapproving glance from a boss suppressed the urge to comment on the emperor's new clothes.


As a employee of the Commonwealth the penalties are severe... termination of employment, fine and jail..

NAB doesn't represent the bulk of the stations.. No networks are part of NAB anymore and most small market stations can't afford to join.
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post #25 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Solfan
IB, I'm sorry that you've been having such a tough time with OTA HDTV.

What receivers have you tried at your location that haven't worked due to multipath issues? What type of antennas- indoor.. outdoor..??

I use a built in tuner in my Toshiba 51HX93 that I think is an ATI. I have to use two indoor antennas in parallel (Silver Sensor and Megawave) hooked up to a Zenith indoor antenna amp. It does not work without the amp! I have tried all the possible combinations and this combination works best for me. I still get dropouts and Fox is very undependable. The buzz is or WAS that the 5th LG chip would mean I could just use one antenna and no longer be forced to get up and move the antennas around when I switched stations. It all works, but with unnecessary effort and complexity.

IB
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post #26 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 08:56 PM
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I think most of us here on this forum like HDTV enough that we can find ways to receive it if we really want. But I suspect that for many of us that has also involved a certain amount of grumbling, cursing, and a wonder why it has not been made just a bit easier.

I also have fiddled with antennas at different residences and have so far always been successful at it. But I'm also now obviously quite p*$$ed about finding that LG is not going to market the promised 5th gen boxes that sounded good enough to dramatically change the public image of how easy it is (or isn't) to get OTA HD.

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post #27 of 433 Old 03-15-2005, 09:00 PM
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As a employee of the Commonwealth the penalties are severe... termination of employment, fine and jail.

William -

Reading back over my comments I see that I was unnecessarily sarcastic. It's been a long day. Sorry.

Can you elaborate a bit more on this legal censorship that stops you and others from commenting on ATSC?

- Tom

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post #28 of 433 Old 03-16-2005, 05:50 AM
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I forgot to add two more to the list:

1. The FCC is pushing to authorize unlicensed devices to operate on "unused" TV spectrum. This is before translators. LPTV or out of core assigned stations have even had a chance to make the transition..

2. If you have a BUD C-band system be aware the FCC has recently authorized UWB devices on 3650 MHz. This is just below the lower Edge of C-Band downlink frequencies..
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post #29 of 433 Old 03-16-2005, 06:20 AM
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I have little doubt that OTA TV is not now as important as it once was. But during that time of importance the broadcaster's and network's interests were apparently a bit more aligned and they did some very successful lobbying for things like exclusive carriage areas, cable must-carry, and probably others.

Now the interests of the networks and broadcasters are diverging and OTA is becoming marginalized by cable and satellite. As the broadcaster's importance wanes it is probably no surprise that they lose some of their protected status and the regulation seems gradually less friendly.

Any broadcasters just relying on cable carriage or hoping for more of it may have a rough time in the future. And I also suspect the affiliate network contracts may become a bit less broadcaster friendly.

To reverse or slow this trend I suspect the broadcasters would indeed have to start thinking about broadcasting again, in digital. And that would require the insistance on 5th gen or better STB's that actually work.

The broadcasters mainly supply value added in only two ways. It is only partly in supplying local content (or ad's). The remainder is in being able to reach those folks not subscribing to cable or satellite. And I do not think broadcasters are giving priority to this issue in the coming digital world. Again, they need to insist on working digital STB's and TV's. Their survival depends on it.

- Tom

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post #30 of 433 Old 03-16-2005, 12:42 PM
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trbarry,
you have a PM
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