Ackkk!!!! It looks like this???? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm considering purchasing a new SVHS VCR.

While I am fully aware that I cannot record HD with my current equipment (Mits 46805, DTC-100), I still wish to record some things. Up to this point, I have been watching everything through the HD input, or DVD.

To this end, I decided to hook up a S-Video cable out from the DTC-100 and into the TV. After disabling the HD Monitor button, I viewed the result and was astonished at just how bad it was. Even after quickly turning down all the overblown settings from the factory for this input, it still looks plain AWFUL.

I realize I am spoiled by now, but this is a really unacceptable result. Is there where I really need Paul's settings? Am I forgetting to set something correctly?

I can't record this. Help!!



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post #2 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 02:57 PM
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Unfortunately when you use the DTC-100 you are given extremes. Good analog looks very good, however ok or bad looks like absolute crap.

The display I got from a normal cable connection through the DTC 100 was practically unwatchable.

DTC is fine for HDTV and DirecTV but everything else will be degraded.

Adam Hunter


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post #3 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 04:02 PM
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Are you trying to record off of DirectTV or OTA or Cable or what?

Frank

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post #4 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 04:52 PM
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Cindi,
when you watch dvd, are you using a progressive scan dvd player or are you using a "regular" dvd player? I ask because watching regular dvd means youre using the mits built in line doubler, while watching progressive scan bypasses this. when you watch dss via the rca box, youre bypassing the mits doubler b/c hd is carried through as hd and ntsc ("normal") stuff gets "line doubled" by the rca's doubler thats supposedly very good. I dont know how good or bad the internal mits doubler is, but this could be part of the issue youre having.

you are smart to be considering s-vhs. be sure to go s-video all the way through. this is because s-video stands for separate video, which means the y & c are stored separately (y=luminence or black and white info; c=chrominance or color info- put the two together and you get your picture). anyhow vhs and svhs record the signals as y&c seperated and inputting and outputting s-video means you never have to combine the y&c signals.

- Jerry

[This message has been edited by aerialman (edited February 16, 2000).]
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post #5 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 06:05 PM
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Just imagine if you'd looked at the results from a regular VHS recorder! And think of how many people are quite content with VHS (until they see something better, like DVD or HD). Now you've seen HD you can never really go back - I have a large library of S-VHS movies, taped off-air or laser disc and with a good scaler they're now only "watchable" 'cause I've seen HD (they used to be "great". Same is true of my laser discs....
Guess I'll be building a HD library assuming one copy is OK with Hollywood - as others have suggested, the 5C will allow this and prevent subsequent generation copies. I hope so!

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post #6 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm actually not recording anything yet...I just wanted to see what the s-video output was like first.

To answer some questions posed here:

On DVD, I'm using the progressive scan inputs with a Tosh SD5109. This looks wonderful. I knew I was bypassing the Mits internal doubler here.

I have no satellite yet. I have OTA and cable coming into the A and B antenna inputs on the DTC-100. As mentioned previously, I am usually watching these through the HD output.

The images I speak of are when I utilize the s-video output of the DTC-100, straight into the s-video inputs of the TV. I thought that would be the route to go to record...out of the RCA, into the VCR, and into the TV.

Perhaps I am going about this the wrong way...is the RCA unit AND the Mits trying to double it and resulting in a mess??? I wasn't expecting great, I was expecting WATCHABLE.

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post #7 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 07:34 PM
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The S out of my DTC-100 to my Toshiba HDTV gives a great picture. Something must be wrong. I have recorded the S from the DTC-100 but the S-VHS VCR can't record and play back as good of a picture as it receives from the DTC-100 (plus there is macrovision to contend with).

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post #8 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 07:38 PM
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Have you viewed any over the air HDTV using the Svideo output? If so, is it also unwatchable? If it is, perhaps you have a bad cable or connector.

Frank

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post #9 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 08:08 PM
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I agree, you should be able to get a viewable image out of the s-video out. s-video cant carry a progressive image, so it should work. if the rca box has a composite video out, give that a try just for trouble shooting purposes. does the mitsu have other s-video inputs?

- Jerry
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post #10 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, here's the progress so far.

I started playing with the input assignments in the Mits menu. It has many choices for device types attached to the input, and I wasn't quite sure what to set in this case.

Choosing "satellite" seems to yield the best result. The picture is viewable now, at least. Still poor quality. Now, however there is a new problem. I have a distinct black line (vertical) down the screen, just offset to the right from middle.

I have not yet had the "raster ringing" fix, because on the HD inputs I have seen no evidence of it. This really doesn't sound like it either...I seem to recall that this problem exhibited itself much nearer the edges. My sticker shows a manufacture date of Nov 1999.

Because of the black line, I tried moving the cables to another input (input 2 instead of input 1). Same result.

I think it might be service call time.


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post #11 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 09:50 PM
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Cindi:

You said:

The images I speak of are when I utilize the s-video output of the DTC-100, straight into the s-video inputs of the TV. I thought that would be the route to go to record...out of the RCA, into the VCR, and into the TV.


This wiring arrangement is called daisey chaining and is not the best way to view the output from the DTC-100. I can tell you that it will not work on the HBO channels with Macrovision at all. Macrovision is designed to ruin the picture in a daisey chain witing configuration. Now on the normal channels, there is most likely no problem in using this but the picture will be quality restricted to the quality of the VCR. This may have problems, it may not. It depends on your VCR. When I first hooked up my line doubler I went through three VCR's before I got rid of a waviness in the cable channels and video tape output. The 4th VCR I tried had adequate filtering in the power supply. I kept it and the picture with it is clean.

As for that vertical bar or line you see, it sounds like your Horizontal phase is not properly locked onto your video signal. Macrovision could disrupt this as well. Hook up the Y/C cable from the DTC-100 direct to the monitor and adjust the settings to get the best picture with the simplest wiring like this.

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post #12 of 21 Old 02-16-2000, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies.

I would like to make one thing more clear...I don't have a vcr in this mix yet. I was only considering the new purchase. My problems are in s-video from the DTC-100 into the Mits.

I will try regular video and/or the coax output as soon as I have time and compare results.



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post #13 of 21 Old 02-17-2000, 10:58 AM
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I completely agree that the optimal recording setup for HD is the panasonic dvhs + stb.

That said, I was in error in most of what I said about how s-vhs works. This was pointed out to me and Im learning about it right now. So please disregard my above explanation.

- Jerry

[This message has been edited by aerialman (edited February 17, 2000).]
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post #14 of 21 Old 02-17-2000, 11:49 AM
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Hi Cindy,

I hooked my DTC-100 to my Sony RPTV (a several-year-old KP53XBR45, NTSC only) via the composite output (I know, UGH!) for a ballpark A->B comparison between the HDTV output on my 17" PC monitor and the RP.

Even the composite video looked very nice on my Sony (the Sony has an excellent 3d adaptive comb filter); I saw no artifacts or "weirdness" whatsoever on any of the D/FW area OTA HD nor NTSC stations over either output.

I never tried the s-video output, but I can't believe it would have been worse.

My vote is for getting the DTC-100 serviced.

Brad


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post #15 of 21 Old 02-17-2000, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm at work right now, so no nothing new on this yet. I'm going to try some things when I get home this evening, if I can fight the kids away from the TV.

Bob, I really will consider the suggestion of the Panasonic. Not too sure of the 'HAF' on that, though http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

Steve, you have a good memory, I do have an old Magnavox here that I originally hooked the RCA unit to until my Mits arrived. I did this through the regular RF connector, which is the ONLY input this TV has. It made that set look great!! This is my first time to use the s-video out of the RCA unit.

I plan to try the regular video and RF outputs to the Mits tonite, just for comparison. If they look better...we'll see from there.

I'll let you know.




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post #16 of 21 Old 02-17-2000, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I'm narrowing it down.

Connected via regular video jack instead, the picture is MUCH improved. It's quite decent now. No vertical black line at all.

Connected via RF jack is STILL way better than the s-video result. Not as good as the regular video, but I expect that. Also no vertical black line on this input.

Therefore, I think I'm down to two possibilities...either a bad s-video jack on the RCA (tried 2 different ones on the Mits, so I don't think that's it), or a bad cable. I only have one s-video cable in the house. I'll try a new one tomorrow, but I feel better now. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif



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post #17 of 21 Old 02-17-2000, 07:05 PM
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Bob,
you could always get a wvhs for $5k!

- Jerry
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post #18 of 21 Old 02-17-2000, 07:07 PM
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Well, my memory wasn't good enough to remember it only had an RF input http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Since you've narrowed it down to this, I will say that at first I tried the S-video cable that came with the RCA and a Monster cable, and had a lot of dot crawl. The composite signal was much better. Of course, everyone kept saying that was impossible; something must be wrong. So, I bought a cheaper S-video cable from Best Buy for about $10, and it was much, much better. Easier to connect too, because it had sturdier pins. You might try that.
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post #19 of 21 Old 02-17-2000, 07:19 PM
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>>, and had a lot of dot crawl. The composite signal was much better. Of course, everyone kept saying that was impossible...

Steve: I don't think you're crazy. If there is a broken ground in the S-VHS cable the result could look like dot crawl if your particular receiver can trace a ground through the circuits. Normally to achieve signal symetry in the cable each component has it's own ground/shield.

Cindi, seems you're getting a handle on the source of your problem through elimination. Keep working on it and if you can substitute another S signal to your Mits input. You are very logical in your thinking and I'm sure you will find the problem.

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post #20 of 21 Old 02-17-2000, 09:16 PM
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I have the DTC-100, use a JVC 9600 S-VHS thru the S-video link. I regularly view both the RF output of the DTC-100 from OTA and Direct TV on a remote Toshiba 32" TV and view recorded material from the VCR on the main monitor which is an Electrohome 3105 thru and IEV line doubler. The DTC-100 also directly feeds the projector via the VGA.

Other than some multipath ghosting from a few OTA sources I dont see a problem with any of the above. So I would say your problem is not inherent with the DTC-100 design. You may have a defect in your DTC-100 or a setup compatibility problem to work thru.

Walter
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post #21 of 21 Old 02-17-2000, 09:57 PM
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Didn't you have an old Magnavox or something you were using with the DTC100 until your Mits came ? If you still have it, you could hook it up again to see how it looks with the S-video connection. I seem to remember you thought it looked pretty good.

I have heard that some HD-ready sets don't look as good with NTSC as plain analog sets do. Whether that's due to poor line-doubling or need for separate calibration of non-HD inputs, I don't know.
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