OVER-THE-AIR DIGITAL TELEVISION RECEPTION FAQ: New to OTA? Start here! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 248 Old 02-18-2008, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTDT View Post

I did a visual check of the neighborhood yesterday and didn't see a single house with an independent OTA antenna. There were many dishes, and some with small attached antennas. A nearby neighborhood had several OTA antennas, but they were at most half this size (hint?).

A majority of TV viewers have cable or pizza-pan dish. So that will reduce the odds of an outside antenna. Also, you association may have bullied your neighbors into believing that the HOA rules were 100% law.

Unlike your neighbors, you have a copy of the federal rules to show that that section of the HOA was struck down.

Again, size doesn't matter.

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post #92 of 248 Old 02-18-2008, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BTDT View Post

I am using the Channel Master 3039 preamp, the low end of their offerings

I have not dealt with this pre-amp, but with 13dB of gain, it would not seem as likely to overload as a 26dB gain CM7777.

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I am really going to hate tearing this thing down and returning it if I have to, but I suspect I really didn't need this antenna. If it all works, however, then I won't touch it.

The best antenna is the one that works, so if you can get it working, there is no need to worry about it being "too big." If it is in a dead spot in the attic and can't be moved... then, that will be a problem.

What is the antenna looking through, the roof or the siding? Knowing the composition of the roof or siding, etc. would be helpful. Do you have any stucco?


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post #93 of 248 Old 02-18-2008, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

What is the antenna looking through, the roof or the siding? Knowing the composition of the roof or siding, etc. would be helpful. Do you have any stucco?

The antenna is looking through the roof, which is standard roof board with composite shingles. There is a vent of some sort running just below the antenna's pointing location which may cause a little interference, but since it is below rather than above I wouldn't think it would be significant.

I think the fact that I am pulling in the hardest-to-receive, lowest-power station says that my antenna location is sufficient. I believe, however, that I may have the antenna pointed a bit to far to the left. I am probably closer to 160 degrees than 170 degrees, and TV Fool tells me that I should be pointed to 169 degrees of "true north". Antennaweb.org gives magnetic degrees, and I don't have a compass handy.

I may try repointing just a bit this evening and see if it helps. One of the very-front dipoles is also slightly bent, so I will correct that since it is likely having some impact. I am certainly learning a lot of interesting stuff about how antennas work....
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post #94 of 248 Old 03-03-2008, 10:01 AM
 
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More Sophisticated Antennas Required

As spending tightens in these uncertain economic times, discretionary purchasing has shifted away from other key market categories, to consumer electronics and particularly to digital TV and HD. High Definition Televisions bumped digital cameras out of the top spot for the most desired CE product for 2007. Several dynamics are affecting millions of households now relying on analog signals for reception of their broadcast TV signals, with antennas older than 2 years. They need to upgrade to the new antenna technology, along with cable and satellite customers looking for alternatives. This has resulted in tremendous sales increases of OTA antennas for Antennas Direct. Although cable and satellite program providers will continue to serve the great majority of homes as the primary signal source, missing HD local reception, higher costs, billing add-ons, service outages, contact difficulties, in-home service waits and no shows have left many subscribers looking to OTA antennas as alternatives and backup.

Richard Schneider, President of Antennas Direct said Our antenna sales for the first two months of 2008 are up 125% over this time last year, a year that in itself that was up 60% over 2006. The simple fact is that not all antennas are equal, some are better and some are the best for particular reception situations. This shift in consumer spending could not have come at a better time for us, because of the tremendous improvements in our Off-Air antenna technology and design that have taken place in the last few years, allowing us to offer the best OTA antennas for the HD revolution.

According to an article in Ad Age As Giant Retailers Reel, Marketers Gird for Worst, as to Consumer Electronics, the news appears very positive. Consumers seem to have designated technology as a new necessity, along with food, gasoline and home-heating oil" said the Consumer Electronics Association's group economist, Shawn DuBravac. Ad Age continued Forecasts for 2008 from the CEA and other CE researchers such as iSuppli bear that out, with predictions of overall electronics growth. "Last year, when oil prices were going through the roof, we saw that people said, 'Since we're not traveling, let's spend some of that money on buying a flat-panel TV,'" said iSuppli analyst Riddih Patel.

There are more than 40 million households currently receiving OTA analog signals in the U.S., according to new proprietary research just released by Centris (www.centris.com), a leading market research firm. They said this number represents a large opportunity formanufacturers and distributors of "smart" television antennasrequir(ing) more sophisticated (OTA) antennas. Centris surveys reveal that 75% or more of over-the-air households have only set-top antennas. The effect will have extensive ramifications, not only among consumers, but also electronics retailers and manufacturers who can expect an influx of costly returns when it is realized that the converter boxes and new digital TV's don't work," says Barry Goodstadt, Senior Vice President of Centris.

To viewers already receiving a cable or satellite network, the benefits of Off-Air antennas are compelling. There is only so much room on cable or satellite bandwidth in which to squeeze signal, so data is compressed to fit, resulting in a somewhat "soft" picture. An OTA signal is the gold standard in digital reception because it's almost completely uncompressed and also FREE. Local digital TV broadcasts are everywhere. But bandwidth limitations force cable and satellite providers to not carry all local channels in many areas, or may not offer all of them in high definition. Contract disagreements between local cable operators and local broadcasters mean that major networks may not be available in several areas. DISH Network® offers local HD coverage to about 47 percent of U.S. markets, while DIRECTV® reaches about 76 percent, but for an additional monthly fee.

What about those other millions of viewers who want to see their favorite local shows and in HD asks Schneider? The answer is to add an OTA antenna to other signal reception sources. This not only gives a viewer the ability to receive all their local stations, but, with the right digital antenna and location, some viewers may even be able to receive out-of-town channels, carrying blacked out sports programs or network broadcasts not available in their home town. As an added benefit, an OTA antenna provides back-up reception options for local cable or satellite signal loss due to equipment failure or rain, snow and ice fade and to smaller TVs and second sets in homes not wired for whole-house signal distribution.
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post #95 of 248 Old 03-03-2008, 02:08 PM
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No one puts any credence in the Centris study:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0015/t.11299.html

Because the Centris study simply used www.antennaweb.com to predict coverage,
the entire study is bogus...cuz antennaweb is notorious for not finding stations that people
are successfully receiving....

A much more believable study was conducted by andy.s.lee who runs www.tvfool.com:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...d=17&Itemid=84


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post #96 of 248 Old 03-13-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

Because the Centris study simply used www.antennaweb.com to predict coverage,
the entire study is bogus...cuz antennaweb is notorious for not finding stations that people
are successfully receiving....

Antennaweb really seems to have a problem with ATSC modeling and/or UHF in particular. I don't think they are taking into account the difference in NTSC peak power vs. ATSC average power for starters. Most analog stations for me are listed as "blue," while it only lists 2 DTV "violet" UHF stations. In reality, the UHF DTV stations are stronger than most of their analog UHF counterparts.

Antennaweb needs to make some changes for it to be a credible resource other than to find channel #'s and distances.


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post #97 of 248 Old 04-02-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Each TV station has two transmitters and two antennas. One for analog and one for digital.

Not always the case. TV stations can end up using the same antenna for both analog and digital transmissions. In most cases this can happen because the channel assignments are right next to each other, or very close. And with today's antenna designs, they don't even have to be close. In my market there are two stations using the same antenna. In this case they are on channels 20/21 and 26/27. In another case, two different stations are using the same digital antenna and their channels are 19 and 32.

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post #98 of 248 Old 04-02-2008, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Not always the case. TV stations can end up using the same antenna for both analog and digital transmissions. In most cases this can happen because the channel assignments are right next to each other, or very close. And with today's antenna designs, they don't even have to be close. In my market there are two stations using the same antenna. In this case they are on channels 20/21 and 26/27. In another case, two different stations are using the same digital antenna and their channels are 19 and 32.

Yeah, I know that is possible. I think either I said it that way, or Doc edited my post so it said that and demonstrated in a simple, short and understandable way that any particular station's analog+digital channel assignments are different and that different transmitters are used for the digital/analog stations ... In other words, to show They can't/don't both transmit on the same channel, as if you don't understand how they would interfere with each other, it is easy to conclude that they are transmitting on the same channel if all you see is the PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) Major/Minor channel number displayed on your screen.


That being said, most in my area are using different transmit antennas for various reasons, including when they are on first adajcent channel assignments (N+1 or N-1).

I'm certianly fine with that post being edited to be more accurate if Doc wants to edit it/change it.

Jeff
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post #99 of 248 Old 04-02-2008, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

TV stations can end up using the same antenna for both analog and digital transmissions.

Are you using "antenna" to mean "set of radiating elements" or "tower" (that the radiating elements are mounted on)?
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post #100 of 248 Old 04-02-2008, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

Are you using "antenna" to mean "set of radiating elements" or "tower" (that the radiating elements are mounted on)?

Physical antenna. I know that some call the tower the antenna, but not me (which you wouldn't know unless you've seen other postings of mine, or the web page that I have devoted to the newest tower that was constructed in my area).

That normally pertains to AM radio towers, i.e., tower = antenna

I think that the 26/27 station that I referenced was the first DTV station in Wisconsin. Because they were able to use their existing antenna and got a great deal on the 26 transmistter (50% off and beta test site), Madison was an early adopter of DTV. Not that anyone was able to watch what they were broadcasting

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post #101 of 248 Old 04-02-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

... as if you don't understand how they would interfere with each other ...

Interfere as in one transmitter possibly blowing out the output stage of the other transmitter I haven't looked into the technology, but do combiners keep the RF from one transmitter from feeding back into any of the other transmitters using the combiner? I've never dug into that and asked, since no one in their right mind would try and combine the same channel of active transmitters.

Maybe the posting can be changed to:

Each TV station has two transmitters, one for analog and one for digital. Separate broadcast antennas may not be required, saving the station money in operational and maintenance costs, as the output from the two transmitters can be combined to feed a single antenna.


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post #102 of 248 Old 04-02-2008, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Interfere as in one transmitter possibly blowing out the output stage of the other transmitter

Strange as it may seem, many don't know that, for instance, a digital station which identifies itself as "WCPO 9 Cincinnati" actually transmits on Channel 10, and the analog transmits on 9 (currently) .... I've noticed Some assume that both are transmitting on the same channel .... Such an assumption can be a problem if your receiver doesn't find all your local stations via a "autoscan" and you need to input the actual RF channel # (channel of transmission) for a particular station and adjust your antenna so that a signal sufficent to decode the PSIP VCT info can be acquired.

Keep in mind, The title of this thread is "OVER-THE-AIR-DIGITAL RECEPTION FAQ: New to OTA? Start Here!," not "Everything you wanted to know about our DTV standard or broadcast engineering but were afraid to ask" ...

While certianly interesting to me, to be honest I even doubt that whether or not a station is using seperate transmit antenna for digital is of much interest to most who come to this thread looking for help with their OTA reception. Except perhaps involving issues such as related to a seperate transmit antenna for DTV being on a different stick/in different location, or in some cases is using a different pattern (or beam tilt) --- issues which are probably best addressed in local threads, or perhaps some of the other antenna threads anyway ....

Quote:
I haven't looked into the technology, but do combiners keep the RF from one transmitter from feeding back into any of the other transmitters using the combiner?

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...0Signals.shtml

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/63...scription.html

http://radiomagonline.com/mag/radio_rf_combiners/

Quote:
Maybe the posting can be changed to:

Each TV station has two transmitters, one for analog and one for digital. Separate broadcast antennas may not be required, saving the station money in operational and maintenance costs, as the output from the two transmitters can be combined to feed a single antenna.



Thanks for the suggestion + input. But, decided to/went ahead and changed it to the following instead :


Each TV station has two transmitters. One for analog and one for digital.

And again, I certianly appreciate your suggestion, but I also think the more you say about these things, in some cases the more "unnecessarily-complicated" it gets for the reader given the subject and purpose of this FAQ/thread. Or to say it another way, the more "other possibilities of interest" besides what has been posted become more releveant.

For example, Some stations in some cases currently use seperate transmit antennas for digital and analog which have different performance charactieristics, and different patterns as well, that can also save the station $ in operational costs, as for instance, the transmit antenna for one or the other may offer more gain. (More gain at antenna=less TPO required = lower bills from the power co ...)

In any case, didn't think about this before, but in a little less than 11 months, we're probably going to want to edit the FAQ info that mentions the analog broadcasts, as it's going to be outdated info as it pertains to full service stations, as there will be no analog NTSC broadcasts from them ....

Anyway thanks again for pointing out this correction ....

Jeff
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post #103 of 248 Old 04-02-2008, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Strange as it may seem, many don't know that, for instance, a digital station which identifies itself as "WCPO 9 Cincinnati" actually transmits on Channel 10, and the analog transmits on 9 (currently) .... I've noticed Some assume that both are transmitting on the same channel .... Such an assumption can be a problem if your receiver doesn't find all your local stations via a "autoscan" and you need to input the actual RF channel # (channel of transmission) for a particular station and adjust your antenna so that a signal sufficent to decode the PSIP VCT info can be acquired.

I agree that there are many that do not know there are separate channels for the analog and digital.

It is going to be a lot of fun when viewers are forced to go digital when the analog channels go away. In some situations, the new digital viewer will connect up their new CECB and let it do its channel scan. All fine and dandy for those viewers whose antenna can point in a single direction. For those that had to swing their antenna around to get some other stations, those digital channels might not get scanned. So the viewer swings the antenna around and punched in channel 9 and nothing happens, not knowing that they had to punch in 10 instead. It is going to be a lot of fun after the transition.

I personally believe that the broadcast stations that are assinged new channels be forced to rebrand to remove the confusion over actual verse virtual channel numbers. I fully understand the costs involved with doing that. The expense for going digital is bad enough, without adding to it the rebranding costs.

While I don't know if this will happen or not, but think about the confusion where a new station starts and gets the old analog frequency of a station in the DMA that didn't want to move back to that frequency. Now there really is a channel 32.

Quote:


Keep in mind, The title of this thread is "OVER-THE-AIR-DIGITAL RECEPTION FAQ: New to OTA? Start Here!," not "Everything you wanted to know about our DTV standard or broadcast engineering but were afraid to ask" ...

Point taken.

Quote:


Anyway thanks again for pointing out this correction ....

You are welcome and thanks for the links. An interesting read.

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post #104 of 248 Old 04-06-2008, 09:08 AM
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i didn't know where to post my question, but since i'm new to OTA DTV, i'll post it here.

i have a zenith dtt900 box connected to rabbit ears and i get great reception to DTV stations as i am an estimated 16 miles from every one. only drawback is that i live near an airport, under a flight path and it causes my signal to drop/pause for about 10 seconds everytime a plane flies by.

i've been looking to build a 2-bay antenna (DB2) for indoor use as i don't want to mount an antenna on my roof. do you think this will help in eliminating the signal drops? also, what is the grill on the DB2 used for?

thanks!
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post #105 of 248 Old 04-06-2008, 10:21 AM
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The DTT900 has it's own thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767
And there's an antenna thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623
and an antenna making thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265

Which, of course, is what makes this the right place to ask. Let me give you a brief response and then go to whichever thread addresses what you want to do.

The DTT900 thread is mainly usage reports, reviews and discussions of that CECB in a variety of implementations, as well as related news. The antenna thread will ask you to use TVFool.com to analyze your local signal field before making commercial antenna recommendations as they will vary with channel and strength. Antenna making is just that, based mainly on 4-bay bowtie variants, and the Gray-Hoverman. You'd be amazed what we use indoors (in closets, in attics, etc.)

I'm not the guy to tell you what airplanes to signal, but I can tell you that rabbit ears are typically low gain and 2/3 omnidirectional (i.e. in 2 of 3 dimensions). One easy way to increase gain is by use of a reflector ~1/4 wave behind the antenna elements. This makes it directional with increased gain coming from the reflected signal. Stacking elements (2-bay, 4-bay) tightens the gain pattern vertically - again more gain with less directionality - so you'd get less signal from aircraft.

My guess is that almost anything that reduces vertical gain will reduce aircraft interference. In the tradition of doing cheap stuff first, I recommend looking at the antenna-making thread as a simple 4-bay bowtie without reflector would be a good upgrade from the rabbit ears. It would yield a flattened gain field that's roughly the same in compass direction, but far more directional in altitude, cutting off anything overhead.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post13508054

I'll note that spokybob is doing something unique - making antennas for those on fixed-income who need a little more gain than their rabbit ears provide.

Have fun,
Frank
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post #106 of 248 Old 05-06-2008, 12:35 PM
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The Ken H referenced posting about NTSC, ATSC, QAM and Cablecard is in error. The cablecard descriptive entery is correct. But the inclusion of cablecard with NTSC, ATSC and QAM is wrong. The cablecard is not a tuner of any sort. It has nothing to do with any of those "broadcast" formats.

It is an access card and a limited access one at that. I'd love to see how a cablecard works with NTSC, ATSC (8T-VSB) and QAM tuners.

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post #107 of 248 Old 05-29-2008, 06:26 PM
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Tech Now! has posted a series of informational videos regarding the DTV transition. To view them, please refer to the bottom of the following link, starting at "Any New TV Will Work":

http://www.technowtv.com/?cat=9991945&subcat=4524034

One comment I have, on the Antenna video, is the lack of UHF bow-tie antennas. The large antenna displayed has Low-VHF elements, which won't be needed for most areas for DTV. A preferred substitute (for areas w/o Low-VHF) would be something like the CM4228:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

Also, "higher-end" indoor antennas are still far from "outdoor class" and often times, amplified indoor antennas can cause more problems than they solve.


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post #108 of 248 Old 06-08-2008, 02:55 PM
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In my Seattle-area condo, I can receive most of the local DTV stations reasonably well. However, on two stations (KOMO-DT 38 and KIRO-DT 39) I've noticed wider signal-strength variations than with other stations in my local market. I'm accustomed to other reception issues in my location, but the KOMO and KIRO signals sometimes come in very stable and at other times fluctuate a lot. I haven't found any analog LP stations which would interfere. Is there any way to determine if unlicensed wireless devices are being used in my immediate vicinity on the same frequency ranges as UHF 38 and 39? http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/d...getdigital.php
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post #109 of 248 Old 06-09-2008, 03:35 PM
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Your local SBE (Society of Broadcasting Engineers) coordinates wireless microphone
and other users in the TV bands. If you have difficulty locating them, contact station engineers.


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post #110 of 248 Old 07-13-2008, 07:42 PM
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... among other things. But in my area, according to TVFool, the VHF digital stations are staying VHF and one UHF analog station going digital will be joining them there. Net VHF increase of one. One of the existing VHF stations is going Low VHF to higher VHF but none of them are going UHF. Is my area (49024) an exception to the rule? One of the PBS stations is even staying in the low VHF band. p.s. these are main CBS, NBC, and PBS stations in my area.
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post #111 of 248 Old 07-13-2008, 09:47 PM
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I think it is safe to say that most stations whose analog channels are in the high-VHF range (7-13) will use those channels for digital after the transition. On the other hand, most stations whose analog channels are in low-VHF (2-6) will use a UHF channel after the transition.

There are exceptions to both cases, of course.
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Originally Posted by AlexG883 View Post

... among other things. But in my area, according to TVFool, the VHF digital stations are staying VHF and one UHF analog station going digital will be joining them there. Net VHF increase of one. One of the existing VHF stations is going Low VHF to higher VHF but none of them are going UHF. Is my area (49024) an exception to the rule? One of the PBS stations is even staying in the low VHF band. p.s. these are main CBS, NBC, and PBS stations in my area.

It doesn't mean VHF is going to UHF. But in practice, many are. Or more specifically, many analog VHF stations had their digital signals placed somewhere on UHF (14-69) and the stations are keeping the channel where the digital signals are now. As a result, stations which used to be VHF entirely will become UHF entirely if they keep their current UHF channel for digital.

Some have to move, though -- channels 52 through 69 are being taken from the UHF TV range and their frequencies sold off for other applications. As a result, our Austin Fox affiliate (analog 7) which broadcasts today on digital 56 will lose that, so they are going back to digital 7 in February.

In reality, an all-UHF world would make it easier to deal with OTA because one strong UHF antenna would likely meet all needs. But absent that, high VHF (7-13) is the next best thing. A few stations are going to be stuck on low VHF (2-6) which is apparently horrible for digital TV. Some stations currently allotted low VHF after 2/17/09 are still scrambling and trying to get exceptions granted with the FCC to allow them to move elsewhere.

The confusing thing is that these stations may keep their analog channel number as part of their identification even if they don't broadcast there - whether VHF or UHF. Here in Austin, for example, channel 42 (analog) broadcasts digitally at 43 and is keeping 43 after 2/17/09. Will they still have '42' as part of their logo? Or will CBS 42 become CBS 43?
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Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post

Here in Austin, for example, channel 42 (analog) broadcasts digitally at 43 and is keeping 43 after 2/17/09. Will they still have '42' as part of their logo? Or will CBS 42 become CBS 43?

They will still call themselves "channel 42" or "CBS 42" or whatever they're calling themselves now. The FCC requires that stations continue to identify themselves by their "old" channel number (by specifying it as the virtual channel number in their PSIP data), even if they're actually using a different physical channel after analog shutdown.
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Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

They will still call themselves "channel 42" or "CBS 42" or whatever they're calling themselves now. The FCC requires that stations continue to identify themselves by their "old" channel number (by specifying it as the virtual channel number in their PSIP data), even if they're actually using a different physical channel after analog shutdown.

Thanks. I hadn't heard that was an FCC mandate.
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Thanks. I hadn't heard that was an FCC mandate.

Neither have I. We need a quote from an official FCC reg, stating reg number as well.

I believe the deal was that they weren't required to rebrand, though I personally would prefer that everyone gave their channel number as their REAL channel number, not what they used to be.

In some areas of the country, The given up analog channel will be taken over by someone else. Image a person's surprise when they manually punch in the channel number of a station, thnking they would be tuning in ACBD, instead getting EDGH and wondering why. Or, someone tried to tune in the channel and gets nothing and do not have a clue as to why not.

Sometimes the autoscan doesn't work. A local channel was missed during the autoscan, but when I punched it in the REAL digital channel number, it captured the signal.

I understand the underlying economics of why not, but hate the fact that channel numbers won't mean a damn thing anymore.

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post #116 of 248 Old 07-29-2008, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

We need a quote from an official FCC reg, stating reg number as well.

See this post and the subsequent discussion, from a thread in the Local HDTV Info and Reception forum.

Strictly speaking, this applies to the channel designation that appears on a digital TV tuner. I suppose they can call themselves anything they want, in advertising, on-screen logos, etc. Some channels around here don't use their channel number on screen at all, and brand themselves as something like "ABC Columbia" or "FOX Charlotte." For several years, the NBC station in Charlotte branded itself as "6 News" because it's on channel 6 on all the local cable systems, even though its analog broadcast channel is 36. I don't think I ever saw them use the number "36" on screen during this period. It only showed up in a TV tuner's channel display. Now that I think of it, they still don't use "36" on screen, just the call letters WCNC, or the phrase "Carolinas News Connection."
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Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

See this post and the subsequent discussion, from a thread in the Local HDTV Info and Reception forum.

As I read it, the PSIP channel identification to point back to the NTSC analog channel is for during the transition. I saw nothing in that posting that said one had to continue pointing the PSIP channel identification at a channel that doesn't exist anymore. In other words, I saw nothing to keep a station from rebranding and/or now telling their viewers what their real channel is. Will anyone do it? Probably not.

Quote:


Strictly speaking, this applies to the channel designation that appears on a digital TV tuner. I suppose they can call themselves anything they want, in advertising, on-screen logos, etc. Some channels around here don't use their channel number on screen at all, and brand themselves as something like "ABC Columbia" or "FOX Charlotte." For several years, the NBC station in Charlotte branded itself as "6 News" because it's on channel 6 on all the local cable systems, even though its analog broadcast channel is 36. I don't think I ever saw them use the number "36" on screen during this period. It only showed up in a TV tuner's channel display. Now that I think of it, they still don't use "36" on screen, just the call letters WCNC, or the phrase "Carolinas News Connection."

Then you need to come to Madison, WI: WISC-TV-3, NBC15, WKOW-27 (27News) and Fox47. Not one of them is getting back their analog channel. I do not know what the CW affiliate does, as I do not watch them and the PBS affiliate doesn't really reference their channel number either. But, 4 out of 6 definately do.

YMMV per location.

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post #118 of 248 Old 07-30-2008, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

As I read it, the PSIP channel identification to point back to the NTSC analog channel is for during the transition. I saw nothing in that posting that said one had to continue pointing the PSIP channel identification at a channel that doesn't exist anymore.

See this post a bit further down in that thread.

(added)

I just noticed that the link to the FCC's Second DTV Review in the post that I referenced earlier, actually points to the press release. Here's the actual document:

Second Periodic DTV Review Report and Order

The relevant sections are paragraph 153 on page 68, and footnote 359 on the same page.

The channel number rules originate in ATSC standard A/65B. It looks like version B has now been superseded by version C:

ATSC standard A/65C

The relevant section is Annex B, section 1, "ASSIGNMENT OF MAJOR CHANNEL NUMBER VALUES FOR TERRESTRIAL BROADCAST IN THE U.S.", on page 90.
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post #119 of 248 Old 07-30-2008, 08:56 AM
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Yeah, They updated it to requiring A65/C in 3rd DTV review.

There are more info/details about the channel mapping requirement in the 2nd DTV review, but As for the actual "rule" requiring A65C (as already mentioned and detailed in the text of 2nd DTV review which includes requirement for VCT major Channel = analog channel #) Here is the "actual rule" from CFR 47, Sec. 73.682 (d), I've bolded the part about A65C ... :

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFR 47, 73.682 (d) View Post

d) Digital broadcast television transmission standard. Effective May 29,
2008 transmission of digital broadcast television (DTV) signals shall comply
with the standards for such transmissions set forth in
ATSC A/52: “ATSC
Standard Digital Audio Compression (AC–3)” (incorporated by reference, see
Sec. 73.8000), ATSC A/53, Parts 1–6: 2007 “ATSC Digital Television Standard,”
(January 3, 2007), except for section 6.1.2 (“Compression Format
Constraints”) of A/53 Part 4: 2007 (“MPEG–2 Video Systems Characteristics”)
and the phrase “see Table 6.2” in section 6.1.1 Table 6.1 and section 6.1.3
Table 6.3 (incorporated by reference, see Sec. 73.8000), and ATSC A/65C: “ATSC
Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable,
Revision C With Amendment No. 1 dated May 9, 2006,” (January 2, 2006)
(incorporated by reference, see Sec. 73.8000).
Although not incorporated by
reference, licensees may also consult ATSC A/54A: “Recommended Practice:
Guide to Use of the ATSC Digital Television Standard, including Corrigendum
No. 1,” (December 4, 2003, Corrigendum No. 1 dated December 20, 2006, and
ATSC A/69: “Recommended Practice PSIP Implementation Guidelines for
Broadcasters,” (June 25, 2002) (Secs. 4, 5, 303, 48 Stat., as amended, 1066,
1068, 1082 (47 U.S.C. 154, 155, 303)). ATSC A/54A and ATSC A/69 are
available from Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC), 1750 K Street,
NW., Suite 1200, Washington, DC 20006, or at the ATSC Web site:
http://www.atsc.org/standards.html .

73.682 in it's entirety here :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2008/73/682/

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post #120 of 248 Old 07-30-2008, 10:36 AM
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See this post a bit further down in that thread.

Oh good grief. IMHO, mandated chaos by our government is just plain wrong, if not stupid. Then again, I expect nothing less out of our government.

Yes, there will be those that think it is a good thing, but to mandate it?

I understand that even if it wasn't mandated, the odds of a station willing to spend the money to rebrand will be slim, considering all of the money spent just going digital. So, the stations themselves would be contributing to the chaos.

Those of us here on the forum fully understand that A != B in most situation and know how to find out what is what. But to Joe and Jane average consumer, I can just hear the complaints bout not being able to get channel X.

It is going to be interesting.

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