MATV Systems and the Digital Transition - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 251 Old 01-01-2007, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kenglish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 31
I've thought about starting this thread for a while, and a couple of searches on the forum haven't brought up a lot of information, so maybe we should open this up for some serious discussions.

What will happen with facilities that depend on MATV (Master Antenna Television) systems, when the "transition" is over?

Most of us here on the forum are dealing with getting a signal to one or two sets in a single-family home, or trying to receive "HDTV" (i.e.: DTV) in our apartments or condos. But, what about the people who rely on OTA reception in the millions of schools, apartment buildings, condos, office complexes, retirement communities, etc, that are wired for MATV?

As a bit of background, we are just finishing an upgrade/rebuild of our (radio/tv/production facility) building's MATV system. Built in 1983/84, it originally consisted of a small Scientific-Atlanta headend with 7 OTA channels and 5 closed-circuit channels, FM Broadcast Band, and a single FM modulator channel. It's distribution system consisted of a single 300 MHz launch amplifier, and lots of taps and RG-6/U trunk lines.

In order to accomodate the 10 DTV channels that are currently broadcasting in our market (all UHF, right now), we have replaced the distribution system with three separate S-A Balanced-Triple Gainmaker amplifiers (three separate output amplifiers in a single housing) in our 9-story building, spacing them every 3 floors....that way, each floor "has it's own amp". All the riser and trunk/feeder cabling is now 0.500-inch semiflex (same stuff they use on the poles) and the taps are all 8-way taps, like used in CATV outdoor construction. The drops are all kept around 25-feet in length, and are RG-6/U tri-shield. Everything is using Gilbert connectors, and we are even using a cable-mounted female jack on the wall plates, to eliminate the use of "barrel" connectors in the wall boxes.

We needed to keep analog service alive at all times, plus adjacent-channel closed-circuit channels for in-house use, as well as provide for OTA ATSC tuners and STBs of every vintage. The entire head-end has been moved to a new room, and rewired, with room for expansion.

All this was a bit of overkill, but we use the signals for rebroadcast sources (like sports highlights), for quality-control purposes, and (at the time the system was being designed) the local POP for DISH Network LIL. We are keeping the UHF Digital Channels "on-channel" in the 14-69 UHF OTA band, again, to accomodate the various ATSC-only tuners, and then using the rest of the spectrum....54-870 MHz...for analog channels and in-house sources, channelized as CATV mode. So, all new TV sets will need two RF inputs, with one set for "OTA Digital" mode, and the other set for "CATV (Analog)".

Working this all out has gotten me wondering what will happen to the MATV folks out there? Schools probably will need upgrading....Cable "might" work for them, but will they be wired for the wider spectrum, or will they need re-builds anyway? And, who will pay for the construction, as well as the monthly fees?

What about retirement communities? There's been quite a bit of discussion in the trade journals about "the Granny Factor"....when grandma wakes up on 2-18-09 and can't get her Soaps on her little TV set in her room. But, even after the kids get together and buy her a nice, shiny new HD set, will it work in her retirement home? How many of those places currently rely on a 300 MHz (basically, a VHF-only) distribution system? Will they need rebuilds of their distribution networks? Cable and satellite are not likely to be an option for most people on fixed incomes. And, again, there's still the matter of wiring all those rooms and apartments. Will the management companies simply demodulate a few popular channels and re-modulate them as VHF analog channels, so they can pass thru their existing systems? Doesn't this, then, become a political burden on them, as they have to decide what local channels get passed-thru on their limited bandwidth, and what channels "die"?

Condos and apartments may be in a similar fix, as they try to avoid the pitfalls of dozens of individual OTA antennas and satellite dishes on their property. Many residents may not be satisfied with the limited offerings of Cable and DBS providers, who may not pass all local stations and their programming services....whether they be multicast SD channels (like the religious and ethnic-programming nets are offering), multiple language audios, captioning options, in-depth EPG's, or whatever. Will they be able to contend with the onslaught of dishes and antennas as more people want their OTA channels, and the programming that is being spread over more and more of the satellite arc? It seems that there is little hope of compatability between the two DBS providers, when it comes to dishes and multiswitch configurations. So, without some sort of "common antenna/common dish" systems, many apartment and condo buildings will look like the proverbial "NASA Tracking Station".

Most people, outside of the TV industry, probably don't watch TV all day at work. But, what about the "Break Room" and lunchroom? And, what happens when there is major news happening, like "9-11" or other events? With analog, a cheap portable TV that normally sits in the broom closet or storeroom, can be quickly put in to service....assuming there are rabbit-ears and a roll of tin-foil available. Will office buildings have even a minimal system that is capable of carrying digital TV signals through all that metal and glass?

Hospitals, hotels, and similar buildings, with their current analog MATV systems, will probably fall in somewhere between these examples.

I think that, whatever is done, the most important question will be, "Are there enough skilled technicians and engineers, and enough equipment available, to get this all done in two years?" And, that is assuming that the word gets out, and the planning and construction even gets underway before the deadline looms near!

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
"The postings on this site are my own and don't necessarily represent the Company positions, strategies or opinions."
kenglish is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 251 Old 01-01-2007, 05:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AntAltMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: College Park, MD
Posts: 3,564
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 25
I think that the MATV business, which is my core business will be gonzo.

Within the next few months, I'm going to be mixing off-air DTV into the VHF+ NTSC SMATV systems so that the residents can have 35 to 45 channels of conventional fare along with about 16 to 18 channels of broadcast HDTV. I am lucky to have good reception from Washington, DC and Baltimore, as well as programming from Annapolis, Falls Church and Manassass. I am also lucky that all my local broadcast temporary assignments are UHF at present, so I just have to replace the 450Mhz distribution amps with 750Mhz amps and bandpass filter the two sets of inputs.

I have retirement communities where I maintain 2-tier private cable systems that, in my opinion, would be better off if they just got rid of them now. I think I have one narrow, maybe six month window to sell them upgrades, and then they will be gonzo. They can pay franchised cable maybe $20 per sub for bulk distribution of their $45 to $50 cable basic tier, and then individually bill each resident the marginal price of each premium service.

I can't compete with that even now. ESPN costs the small MATV headend over $5 per sub now, and they add on maybe another dollar for ESPN2, whereas franchised cable probably pays $3 for the entire ESPN suite and now, in my primary market, not only do many customers expect Comcast Sports Mid-Atlantic, which costs $2.70/month/sub, but now I am expected to add MASN for the Orioles and Nationals, which probably costs around $3/sub/month, but presently, it can only be imported for resale using TWO Scientific Atlanta Powerview receivers, because they require you to have two channels available to deal with the multiple conflicts they incur with two baseball teams, and a C-band feed that is on a satellite headend. I'd have to charge over $6,000 in hardware to add that channel to a headend.

Ten years ago, I had some 200+ unit retirement homes that dropped HBO and Showtime because they had to pay for a minimum of ten subs at $5 per sub but they only had one or two subscribers, but now, every time an 80 year old customer dies and a 60 year old takes his place, they want - make that, they demand - something that isn't available through these modest, 35-45 channel MATV systems I service. I recently had to switch a resident from SMATV to Comcast because she had to have Comedy Central.

Most of the pressure already comes from the families, either because the 40-50 year old wants to buy the best for his aging parent who doesn't yet realize that there is a fourth major broadcast network and never will, or by people who want the grandchildren to be able to watch cartoons when they visit.

Unless someone comes up with something that lets SMATV providers somehow cherry-pick MPEG out of the satellite L-band transponders, and then repackage it into 6Mhz QAM, there is simply no way that an SMATV headend can be constructed that will meet the expectations of the modern customers. It looks like I will be adding L-band overlays to these systems this year, not to allow the system to make a profit, but to at least take the pressure off the system to provide niche programming that it cannot presently provide.
AntAltMike is offline  
post #3 of 251 Old 01-02-2007, 05:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bdfox18doe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenglish View Post

As a bit of background, we are just finishing an upgrade/rebuild of our (radio/tv/production facility) building's MATV system.

Same here, except we're putting in QAM modulators and upconvertors for in house channels, mixing these back in with the Time-Warner cable feed. OTA's can then be seen via cable and our local QAM's..

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
bdfox18doe is offline  
post #4 of 251 Old 01-07-2007, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kenglish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

Same here, except we're putting in QAM modulators and upconvertors for in house channels, mixing these back in with the Time-Warner cable feed. OTA's can then be seen via cable and our local QAM's..

So, are you having to encode (MPEG and DD) the in-house channels (I'm assuming you mean things like raw network feeds, CNN or FoxNews, studio feeds, etc), then convert them to QAM and upconvert them to the RF channel?

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
"The postings on this site are my own and don't necessarily represent the Company positions, strategies or opinions."
kenglish is offline  
post #5 of 251 Old 01-07-2007, 10:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bdfox18doe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenglish View Post

So, are you having to encode (MPEG and DD) the in-house channels (I'm assuming you mean things like raw network feeds, CNN or FoxNews, studio feeds, etc), then convert them to QAM and upconvert them to the RF channel?

In house channels, such as news feeds, control rooms, etc.. will stay analog, we delete & re-insert 15 analog channels into the incoming Time-Warner feed. QAM modulators will be inserted above the 750mhz limit of TWC, and will carry our digital streams that leave here on DS-3, as well as the "test" / spare HDTV encoding chains (2) that we have in the lab. All the local digital OTA's are on clear QAMs on TWC. Using Comstream modulators, GI, Wavecom and Drake upconvertors.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
bdfox18doe is offline  
post #6 of 251 Old 01-07-2007, 10:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
AntAltMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: College Park, MD
Posts: 3,564
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 25
But the problem that we are going to run into in the MATV business is that, starting on February 17, 2009, the TV manufacturers will not be required to include analog tuners in their sets, and so I would expect any model introduced after that date to not have an NSTC tuner, so the MATV headend has to have a practical means to take the available (DirecTV, DISH) receiver outputs and somehow formulate their outputs into either QAM or 8VSB channels to satisfy customers who do not have analog tuners available for their newest TVs.

It would be a huge waste of bandwidth to implement something that can only transcode one receiver's channel output onto one modulated 6Mhz channel, but it would take a lot of processing to multiplex several STD programs into one QAM or 8VSB channel, and I don't see MATV being able to bear that cost.
AntAltMike is offline  
post #7 of 251 Old 01-07-2007, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kenglish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Are you sure about the tuner requirements changing....seems like they are being very shortsighted, if that's the case?

Is every security camera, satellite box, and cable box going to have to contain an ATSC transmitter, to satisfy the average Joe who wants to feed it thru the rest of his house? Or, will Channel Plus have to start selling encoders and 8VSB or QAM transmitters? Sounds like the average home (not to mention MATV) will need a Cable headend .

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
"The postings on this site are my own and don't necessarily represent the Company positions, strategies or opinions."
kenglish is offline  
post #8 of 251 Old 01-07-2007, 03:47 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 13,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 37
The rule only states that if a monitor has an analog tuner, it must have a digital tuner as well. Nothing about when to drop NTSC tuners. As a matter of fact, CEA could stop putting NTSC tuners in monitors all together and sell sets with ATSC tuners only now if they wanted to. I suspect we will see NTSC tuners in TV's for many years to come since cable systems will be providing NTSC service to their subs for years to come to keep those legacy NTSC only sets going.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is online now  
post #9 of 251 Old 01-07-2007, 04:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AntAltMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: College Park, MD
Posts: 3,564
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 25
FWIW, I think there is still an old mandate in force requiring any TV with a VHF tuner to have a UHF tuner in it. I think it was phased-in in steps, where first, they were required to have just the early, continuous tuner in them, then, it had to have click stops, then I think it had to have ten selectable UHF presents, and then it would up having to permit the selection of all the UHF channels. Since there was no such thing as a DTV tuner at the time that UHF tuner mandate was written, terms that had concise meaning when there was only one kind of TV tuner might now be ambiguous.
AntAltMike is offline  
post #10 of 251 Old 01-14-2007, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kenglish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 31
I thought there would be more interest in this thread.

Let's look at some of the situations where an MATV system would be used, and what would be involved. Then, work our way up.

I guess the most basic installations would be something like a duplex, fourplex, maybe a 6 or 8 unit apartment or condo....or a small office complex.

I think those would be very basic, much like a home installation. At the least, it would entail an antenna or two, an amplifier (not likely to even need preamps, since the downleads would be short), and some sort of distribution....a few home runs or a couple of trunks and taps. As long as signal strengths are comparable across the band, it's probably pretty simple.

Any comments? (Remember, we are trying to get people thinking about this part of the transition. Some members may be wondering about those rental properties they own, or the office where they work.)

After this one, we could tackle some more complex situations....schools, motels, retirement homes, hospitals.....also, SMATV and systems with modulated channels, etc.

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
"The postings on this site are my own and don't necessarily represent the Company positions, strategies or opinions."
kenglish is offline  
post #11 of 251 Old 01-14-2007, 03:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bdfox18doe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenglish View Post

I thought there would be more interest in this thread.
Any comments? (Remember, we are trying to get people thinking about this part of the transition. .

So did I.. I can tell you that insertion of local QAM channels into the incoming cable feed has been more difficult than I expected. I suspect there is a slight difference between my QAM modulator settings and that of the cable company..

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
bdfox18doe is offline  
post #12 of 251 Old 01-14-2007, 04:48 PM
 
HDTVFanAtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am still trying to figure out if I've ever seen a Radio/TV Facility that has 9 floors to it. Do you have very small Square Footage on each floor? What is the total Square Footage anyway?
HDTVFanAtic is offline  
post #13 of 251 Old 01-14-2007, 04:52 PM
 
HDTVFanAtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

In house channels, such as news feeds, control rooms, etc.. will stay analog, we delete & re-insert 15 analog channels into the incoming Time-Warner feed. QAM modulators will be inserted above the 750mhz limit of TWC, and will carry our digital streams that leave here on DS-3, as well as the "test" / spare HDTV encoding chains (2) that we have in the lab. All the local digital OTA's are on clear QAMs on TWC. Using Comstream modulators, GI, Wavecom and Drake upconvertors.

I have no idea where TWC Charlotte is in the procoess, but as TWC has been moving to increase systems up to 1Ghz in many of their large markets, what do you do then? I know our former TWC System actually is capable of 1Ghz already and has been for 2 years - its just the headend that isn't.

And with SDV, I suspect that would give you another headache.
HDTVFanAtic is offline  
post #14 of 251 Old 01-15-2007, 06:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
videobruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 14,962
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:


What will happen with facilities that depend on MATV (Master Antenna Television) systems, when the "transition" is over?

A bonazna for digital equipment supplies and MATV contractors! Just as the breakup of the Bell system was many decades ago.
But, a nightmare for anyone that has to install it.

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
videobruce is offline  
post #15 of 251 Old 01-15-2007, 07:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
videobruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 14,962
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Questions:

1. Cost difference between a 8VSB modulator vs a QAM?
2. I understand QAM is better for large CATV systems, but would 8VSB be ok for apartment buildings, hosiptals etc (especailly if the cost of the head end equipment is cheaper)?
3. These 'private' MVPDs' (if that is the correct term), other than direct C band feeds where as stated, the cost per sub is too high, just where do you get your programming from?

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
videobruce is offline  
post #16 of 251 Old 01-15-2007, 07:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jtbell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Clinton, SC
Posts: 3,822
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

But the problem that we are going to run into in the MATV business is that, starting on February 17, 2009, the TV manufacturers will not be required to include analog tuners in their sets,

But analog cable will still exist, and a lot of people will still be using basic analog cable that doesn't require a set-top box. They're going to want their TVs to have cable-ready NTSC tuners. Eventually the cable companies will move these people to digital cable (QAM), either, but it won't happen immediately. In the meantime there will still be a market for TVs with NTSC tuners.
jtbell is offline  
post #17 of 251 Old 01-15-2007, 09:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bgooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,759
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
LodgeNet leads HDTV progress
Monday, January 15 2007 @ 11:10 AM GMT

LodgeNet has revealed that its SIGNETURE HDTV guest entertainment solution is contracted for over 80,000 hotel rooms and was deployed to more than 17,000 hotel rooms.

http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/ar...70115111025523
bgooch is offline  
post #18 of 251 Old 01-15-2007, 02:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
posg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

But analog cable will still exist, and a lot of people will still be using basic analog cable that doesn't require a set-top box. They're going to want their TVs to have cable-ready NTSC tuners. Eventually the cable companies will move these people to digital cable (QAM), either, but it won't happen immediately. In the meantime there will still be a market for TVs with NTSC tuners.

Analog TVs will disappear off store shelves faster than VHS tapes disappeared from Blockbuster.

CRT sets will be obsolete in less than three years, and NTSC analog will be gone in five.

But we will still have VCR Plus codes in the Sunday TV supplement.
posg is offline  
post #19 of 251 Old 01-15-2007, 04:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bdfox18doe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Questions:

1. Cost difference between a 8VSB modulator vs a QAM??

I'm not aware of any MATV type 8-vsb Modulators..however, the drake gear to translate an 8vsb to qam signal is about $2k..

AFAIK, there are NO 8-vsb or QAM modulators that take A&V inputs.. that's just not how it works at this point in time..

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
bdfox18doe is offline  
post #20 of 251 Old 01-15-2007, 07:55 PM
 
HDTVFanAtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

I'm not aware of any MATV type 8-vsb Modulators..however, the drake gear to translate an 8vsb to qam signal is about $2k..

AFAIK, there are NO 8-vsb or QAM modulators that take A&V inputs.. that's just not how it works at this point in time..

I have some 8-vsb Modulators but as you state, you just cannot plug an A/V feed into it - and they are not made for MATV per se.

I guess technically you could take a Sencore ATSC9878 for roughly $7500 and feed it from a mpeg2 encoder and it would give you an output on whatever channel (either UHF/VHF or Cable) you set the Sencore unit to and then insert that into the system.
HDTVFanAtic is offline  
post #21 of 251 Old 01-16-2007, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kenglish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVFanAtic View Post

I am still trying to figure out if I've ever seen a Radio/TV Facility that has 9 floors to it. Do you have very small Square Footage on each floor? What is the total Square Footage anyway?

It's an eight-floor-plus-basement office building. We are co-owners and have about one-half of it. KSL-TV occupies the whole first floor, with radio and TV newsroom on one wing, TV production and air ops on the other. BIRG (Bonneville International Radio Group) SLC stations, KSL AM/FM, AM820, KRSP-FM and KSFI-FM (plus HD2 automated stations on each FM) studios and talent occupy one wing of the second floor, KSL-TV Sales and management occupy the other wing. BIRG Sales and management have one wing of the 4th floor, BIC Corporate offices occupy the entire 8th floor, Bonneville Communications ("Music and the Spoken Word", "Mormon Tabernacle Choir" TV specials, all those nice PSA's) has half the 7th floor, support services have half the basement. Probably 400+ employees, total.

Rest of the building is a mix of LDS Church commercial business managers and property management. Other two buildings in the complex are being turned in to LDS Business College, and BYU Salt Lake Campus. We might feed them the local channels, to mix with their own MATV systems.

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
"The postings on this site are my own and don't necessarily represent the Company positions, strategies or opinions."
kenglish is offline  
post #22 of 251 Old 01-16-2007, 12:59 PM
 
HDTVFanAtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So I guess the real answer is the Radio and TV really isn't split up over 9 floors as they do not occupy every floor.

Now, fwiw, in another Top 10 market where we are rebuilding the entire thing, we are installing a cable system that is digital QAM only and providing QAM TVs with QAM tuners, though most channels will be SD and not HD. As you are aware and stated, there is currently no equipment available for ATSC on cable from the big cable suppliers.

We worked with a very large Cable Group that did the engineering specifying SA equipment - which seemed like the easiest way considering that was out of realm of expertise.

Just like you, we are unsure how much longer NTSC tuners will be a part of landscape, but by using QAM and making sure all future purchases have QAM tuners, we believe that is the best long term solution at this point.
HDTVFanAtic is offline  
post #23 of 251 Old 01-16-2007, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kenglish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Does a QAM system carry all of the PSIP/EPG info like the ATSC system?

We were more interested in monitoring our actual OTA ATSC signal, as well as those of the competitors, so we started out in 1998 with keeping everything in the ATSC 8VSB domain. Plus, back then, the only receivers were Mitsubishis, the DTC-100's, and the pro Harris ARX-H100.

As for MATV in the places like Assisted Living Centers and such, I'm concerned that the only affordable converters will be the "$40 Coupon" ones, which only do 8VSB ATSC. So, we may have to keep that "On Channel" mindset.

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
"The postings on this site are my own and don't necessarily represent the Company positions, strategies or opinions."
kenglish is offline  
post #24 of 251 Old 01-16-2007, 05:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bdfox18doe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenglish View Post

Does a QAM system carry all of the PSIP/EPG info like the ATSC system? .

Yea, if the receiver will read it that is. CATV is required by the FCC to pass PSIP
thru for the integrated sets that can read it.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
bdfox18doe is offline  
post #25 of 251 Old 01-16-2007, 07:49 PM
 
HDTVFanAtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenglish View Post

Does a QAM system carry all of the PSIP/EPG info like the ATSC system?

We were more interested in monitoring our actual OTA ATSC signal, as well as those of the competitors, so we started out in 1998 with keeping everything in the ATSC 8VSB domain. Plus, back then, the only receivers were Mitsubishis, the DTC-100's, and the pro Harris ARX-H100.

As for MATV in the places like Assisted Living Centers and such, I'm concerned that the only affordable converters will be the "$40 Coupon" ones, which only do 8VSB ATSC. So, we may have to keep that "On Channel" mindset.

(I know you are familar with most of this, but I am going to over simplify so others who might not be as familar with some of the terms might be able to grasp it - just trying to explain it in context instead of later when someone asks.).

As far as I know from all experience and looking at both OTA and Cable feeds of the same station, cable systems strip broadcast PSIP and insert their own abbreviated data destined for STBs, thereby saving space and stopping broadcasters from communicating directly to viewers via EPGs in the PSIP, as well as stripping any multi-channel information. PSIP also carries all of the program associated data, captioning and channel mapping information.

VSB is also a modulation method and ignorant of the content it is carrying as well. ATSC specifies 8 level VSB modulation as well as the data scheme, including MPEG 2.

The ATSC system of course provides for channel mapping so that the viewer doesn't really care what the real channel is, but can keep their old familiar channel numbers so I don't see a problem with the D/A converters. The viewer will tune using the D/A converter remote control and tune to their analog channel number. The RF out of the D/A converter then comes in on channel 3 or 4 to their old analog set. As far as I understand MATV systems, they only pass through OTA signals. They will have to insure that the real digital channels are passed through.
HDTVFanAtic is offline  
post #26 of 251 Old 01-17-2007, 04:36 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 13,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Does anyone make an on channel IF digital remodulator like they have in the NTSC world. We use those in our in house cable system since we don't try and monitor every station within range, just the news competition.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is online now  
post #27 of 251 Old 01-17-2007, 05:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bdfox18doe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVFanAticAs View Post

far as I know from all experience and looking at both OTA and Cable feeds of the same station, cable systems strip broadcast PSIP .

TWC here passes the EPG (EIT/ETT's) portion. If you'll review the latest FCC R&O on PSIP, it's covered in there.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
bdfox18doe is offline  
post #28 of 251 Old 01-17-2007, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
kenglish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Does anyone make an on channel IF digital remodulator like they have in the NTSC world. We use those in our in house cable system since we don't try and monitor every station within range, just the news competition.

If you mean an "8VSB ATSC-Type Proc", we had some from Harris (CHE-100) that are a re-branded CADCO unit. They took OTA/CATV inputs and downconverted/stabilized/upconverted them back to either OTA or CATV channelization. All 8VSB, though. Whatever goes in, comes out.

We wound up using the "Medex P617", which is a customized version of the same unit, redesigned by Darwin Hillberry. He uses a SAW Filter, so we can run adjacent channels. Larcan makes a unit as well, designed for Translator use. It has some PSIP manipulation capacity, and costs a bit more. So, CADCO, Medex, or Larcan.

If you mean "going 8VSB-to-QAM", I was mentioning (above) the Drake stuff. Looks like a TD8VSB demod, a TMQAM modulator, and an IF-to-CATV upconverter....about $1300 per channel.

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
"The postings on this site are my own and don't necessarily represent the Company positions, strategies or opinions."
kenglish is offline  
post #29 of 251 Old 01-17-2007, 08:26 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
videobruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 14,962
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:


CATV is required by the FCC to pass PSIP

What would/could prevent playback of a digital stream recorded to an external 1394 device from of a HD TV with a QAM tuner on a cable system?
This is regular network programming marked "copy free" and 'in the clear' on the cable system. The same programs records and plays back ok off another QAM TV. The PSID data using cable doesn't ID the call letters of the station, nor the program name as it does using the 8VSB tuner.

Hope that made some sense. Any ideas??

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
videobruce is offline  
post #30 of 251 Old 01-17-2007, 08:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bdfox18doe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

What would/could prevent playback of a digital stream recorded to an external 1394 device from of a HD TV with a QAM tuner on a cable system?
This is regular network programming marked "copy free" and 'in the clear' on the cable system. The same programs records and plays back ok off another QAM TV.

The PSID data through cable doesn't ID the call letters of the station, nor the program name as it does using the 8VSB tuner.

Any ideas??

Cable can flag it to prevent recording, and not all recorders will record cable QAM.My Mits dlp to RCA DVR10 via firewire will record OTA just fine, but not QAM.

Also, my mits dlp reads the psip/epg data, including call letters..via cable just fine.
I don't have a cable card either.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
bdfox18doe is offline  
Reply HDTV Technical

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off