How to build a UHF antenna... - Page 53 - AVS Forum
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post #1561 of 4829 Old 02-01-2009, 10:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post



I would think VHF-Hi would come in even better if mounted sideways.


This raises a question I was wondering about...How come a DB4 mounted horizontally sucks compared to vertical mounting???
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post #1562 of 4829 Old 02-01-2009, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

Now you need to put a reflector behind it for more gain, probably the typical 4 inch reflector to element spacing. That should also help with any multipath issues. The Clearstream 2 reflector I measured at my local Best Buy uses a 1.5 inch by 2 inch mesh reflector.

I tried the 2nd cookie plate (the backup one...) as a reflector. No good results yet.


Quote:
I would think VHF-Hi would come in even better if mounted sideways.

You means as in "small-loops" antenna, working with the magnetic field H rather than the electric field E? It crossed my mind to make such magnetic loop antenna. But sideways, a double hoop would not be too great I think, and a single hoop would require about 5-10 turns if I understood correctly, like in some sound system FM antennas.

Quote:
Is the outer circle 8 inches ?
Also, since the Clearstream C2 element is totally encased in plastic, are you sure its a solid piece of metal in there or could it be wire hoops ?
Do you have any closeup pictures of the mods done to the balun to make it 1:1 ?

8" yes. inner disk is 5". I have trusted other users post on other forums, regarding the inside of the C2.
I cannot take crisp pictures of the balun (no macro), and the 3MP camera is not enough to grab detail at 3+ feet. The post
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post15702591
show enough.
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post #1563 of 4829 Old 02-01-2009, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

This raises a question I was wondering about...How come a DB4 mounted horizontally sucks compared to vertical mounting???

Polarisation. TV emissions E field is horizontally polarized, so should you E-field capturing antenna.

Meanwhile, the XY (azimutal) plane pattern is smooth when the DB4 are stacked vertically, but the XZ (elevation) plane pattern is crippled with nulls. So unless all you emitters are in the same direction and your antenna if facing them perfectly, you probably should not turn a DB4 sideways.


LL
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post #1564 of 4829 Old 02-01-2009, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
You means as in "small-loops" antenna, working with the magnetic field H rather than the electric field E? It crossed my mind to make such magnetic loop antenna. But sideways, a double hoop would not be too great I think, and a single hoop would require about 5-10 turns if I understood correctly, like in some sound system FM antennas.

I didnt mean for you to make another one, heh. Just turn it sideways and see what happens in a test on that VHF-Hi channel.
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post #1565 of 4829 Old 02-01-2009, 06:53 PM
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Quote:


8" yes. inner disk is 5". I have trusted other users post on other forums, regarding the inside of the C2.


OK, using an 8 inch outer ring size and 5 inch inner ring size, about 1/4 inch metal between the two rings, 18 gauge metal and approx 1 1/4 inch feed gap I did a quick wire model approximating the solid in 4nec2 while watching the Superbowl.

3D picture with transparent radiation pattern :



Pretty much what I expected, a level 4.26 dBi for a while, then a dip to 3.19 at 641 mhz, then back up to the 4.26 dBi level at 695 mhz. This is a little bit better than the Radio Shack Classic bowtie. The only thing that was a surprise was the low SWR of under 2 using 300 ohm impedance. At 584 mhz, the impedance is 299 + j97.4, SWR 1.38. So it looks like you were spinning your wheels making a 1:1 balun.

Ill throw a 1 1/2 inch by 2 inch mesh reflector behind it, after I go to Best Buy to get its dimensions. I expect about a 2.5 dBi improvement. It'll be a few days, unless you already know them.

The NEC file, have fun playing with it. Lots of warnings about intersecting volumes (well duh, thats what it is, heh) The "too sharp angle" warnings can be gotten rid of by deleting those wires mentioned in the warning messages, it wont change the result. :

CM 8 inch outer ring, 5 inch inner ring, approx 1/4 inch spacing, approx 1 1/4 inch gap.
CE
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GW 503 1 0 2.54417323 -0.8053543 0 2.79996063 -1.0355118 0.01968504
GW 504 1 0 2.79996063 -1.0355118 0 3.03503937 -1.286811 0.01968504
GW 505 1 0 3.03503937 -1.286811 0 3.2476378 -1.5573622 0.01968504
GW 506 1 0 3.2476378 -1.5573622 0 3.43622047 -1.8451969 0.01968504
GW 507 1 0 3.43622047 -1.8451969 0 3.59937008 -2.148189 0.01968504
GW 508 1 0 3.59937008 -2.148189 0 3.73582677 -2.4640945 0.01968504
GW 509 1 0 3.73582677 -2.4640945 0 3.84468504 -2.7905512 0.01968504
GW 510 1 0 3.84468504 -2.7905512 0 3.92503937 -3.1251181 0.01968504
GW 511 1 0 3.92503937 -3.1251181 0 3.97637795 -3.4653937 0.01968504
GW 512 1 0 3.97637795 -3.4653937 0 3.99822835 -3.8088189 0.01968504
GW 513 1 0 3.99822835 -3.8088189 0 3.99051181 -4.1528346 0.01968504
GW 514 1 0 3.99051181 -4.1528346 0 3.95326772 -4.4949213 0.01968504
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GW 522 1 0 2.91523622 -6.6291339 0 2.66913386 -6.8696457 0.01968504
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GW 524 1 0 2.40326772 -7.0881102 0 2.1196063 -7.2829134 0.01968504
GW 525 1 0 2.1196063 -7.2829134 0 1.82023622 -7.4525984 0.01968504
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GW 553 1 0 -3.8451575 -2.7858661 0 -3.7359055 -2.4595669 0.01968504
GW 554 1 0 -3.7359055 -2.4595669 0 -3.5990551 -2.1438583 0.01968504
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GW 556 1 0 -3.4355512 -1.841063 0 -3.2466535 -1.5534252 0.01968504
GW 557 1 0 -3.2466535 -1.5534252 0 -3.0337008 -1.2831102 0.01968504
GW 558 1 0 -3.0337008 -1.2831102 0 -2.7983071 -1.032126 0.01968504
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GW 560 1 0 -2.5422441 -0.8022441 0 -2.2673228 -0.5952756 0.01968504
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GW 565 1 0 -1.022126 -0.0237795 0 -0.6859449 0.04968504 0.01968504
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GW 571 1 0 0.84039331 -0.2892126 0 1.03944843 -0.3706693 0.01968504
GW 572 1 0 1.03944843 -0.3706693 0 1.23074764 -0.468937 0.01968504
GW 573 1 0 1.23074764 -0.468937 0 1.41291299 -0.5832677 0.01968504
GW 574 1 0 1.41291299 -0.5832677 0 1.58456654 -0.712874 0.01968504
GW 575 1 0 1.58456654 -0.712874 0 1.74444843 -0.8566929 0.01968504
GW 576 1 0 1.74444843 -0.8566929 0 1.89137756 -1.0137795 0.01968504
GW 577 1 0 1.89137756 -1.0137795 0 2.02425157 -1.182874 0.01968504
GW 578 1 0 2.02425157 -1.182874 0 2.14208622 -1.3627953 0.01968504
GW 579 1 0 2.14208622 -1.3627953 0 2.24405472 -1.5521654 0.01968504
GW 580 1 0 2.24405472 -1.5521654 0 2.32936969 -1.7495669 0.01968504
GW 581 1 0 2.32936969 -1.7495669 0 2.39740118 -1.953622 0.01968504
GW 582 1 0 2.39740118 -1.953622 0 2.44759803 -2.1627165 0.01968504
GW 583 1 0 2.44759803 -2.1627165 0 2.47968465 -2.3753937 0.01968504
GW 584 1 0 2.47968465 -2.3753937 0 2.49338543 -2.5900394 0.01968504
GW 585 1 0 2.49338543 -2.5900394 0 2.48854291 -2.8050394 0.01968504
GW 586 1 0 2.48854291 -2.8050394 0 2.4652752 -3.0188583 0.01968504
GW 587 1 0 2.4652752 -3.0188583 0 2.42370039 -3.2298425 0.01968504
GW 588 1 0 2.42370039 -3.2298425 0 2.36413346 -3.4365354 0.01968504
GW 589 1 0 2.36413346 -3.4365354 0 2.28704685 -3.6372835 0.01968504
GW 590 1 0 2.28704685 -3.6372835 0 2.19295236 -3.8307087 0.01968504
GW 591 1 0 2.19295236 -3.8307087 0 2.08259803 -4.015315 0.01968504
GW 592 1 0 2.08259803 -4.015315 0 1.95681063 -4.1897638 0.01968504
GW 593 1 0 1.95681063 -4.1897638 0 1.81649567 -4.3527165 0.01968504
GW 594 1 0 1.81649567 -4.3527165 0 1.66267677 -4.5030315 0.01968504
GW 595 1 0 1.66267677 -4.5030315 0 1.49649567 -4.6395669 0.01968504
GW 596 1 0 1.49649567 -4.6395669 0 1.3192122 -4.7613386 0.01968504
GW 597 1 0 1.3192122 -4.7613386 0 1.13212559 -4.8674016 0.01968504
GW 598 1 0 1.13212559 -4.8674016 0 0.93657441 -4.9570079 0.01968504
GW 599 1 0 0.93657441 -4.9570079 0 0.73409449 -5.0294488 0.01968504
GW 600 1 0 0.73409449 -5.0294488 0 0.52610236 -5.0842126 0.01968504
GW 601 1 0 0.52610236 -5.0842126 0 0.3142122 -5.1209449 0.01968504
GW 602 1 0 0.3142122 -5.1209449 0 0.09992047 -5.1392913 0.01968504
GW 603 1 0 0.09992047 -5.1392913 0 -0.1151575 -5.1391732 0.01968504
GW 604 1 0 -0.1151575 -5.1391732 0 -0.3294098 -5.1205512 0.01968504
GW 605 1 0 -0.3294098 -5.1205512 0 -0.5412996 -5.0835827 0.01968504
GW 606 1 0 -0.5412996 -5.0835827 0 -0.7491736 -5.0285433 0.01968504
GW 607 1 0 -0.7491736 -5.0285433 0 -0.9516146 -4.9558268 0.01968504
GW 608 1 0 -0.9516146 -4.9558268 0 -1.1470087 -4.8660236 0.01968504
GW 609 1 0 -1.1470087 -4.8660236 0 -1.3339768 -4.7597244 0.01968504
GW 610 1 0 -1.3339768 -4.7597244 0 -1.5111425 -4.6377559 0.01968504
GW 611 1 0 -1.5111425 -4.6377559 0 -1.6771268 -4.5010236 0.01968504
GW 612 1 0 -1.6771268 -4.5010236 0 -1.8307488 -4.3505118 0.01968504
GW 613 1 0 -1.8307488 -4.3505118 0 -1.9709055 -4.1873622 0.01968504
GW 614 1 0 -1.9709055 -4.1873622 0 -2.0964969 -4.0127559 0.01968504
GW 615 1 0 -2.0964969 -4.0127559 0 -2.2066146 -3.8280315 0.01968504
GW 616 1 0 -2.2066146 -3.8280315 0 -2.3004339 -3.6345276 0.01968504
GW 617 1 0 -2.3004339 -3.6345276 0 -2.3772839 -3.4336614 0.01968504
GW 618 1 0 -2.3772839 -3.4336614 0 -2.4366146 -3.2269291 0.01968504
GW 619 1 0 -2.4366146 -3.2269291 0 -2.4779138 -3.0158661 0.01968504
GW 620 1 0 -2.4779138 -3.0158661 0 -2.5009457 -2.8020079 0.01968504
GW 621 1 0 -2.5009457 -2.8020079 0 -2.5055126 -2.5870079 0.01968504
GW 622 1 0 -2.5055126 -2.5870079 0 -2.4915756 -2.3723622 0.01968504
GW 623 1 0 -2.4915756 -2.3723622 0 -2.4592528 -2.1597638 0.01968504
GW 624 1 0 -2.4592528 -2.1597638 0 -2.4087406 -1.9507087 0.01968504
GW 625 1 0 -2.4087406 -1.9507087 0 -2.3404728 -1.7467323 0.01968504
GW 626 1 0 -2.3404728 -1.7467323 0 -2.2549606 -1.5494094 0.01968504
GW 627 1 0 -2.2549606 -1.5494094 0 -2.1527567 -1.3601969 0.01968504
GW 628 1 0 -2.1527567 -1.3601969 0 -2.0346858 -1.1804331 0.01968504
GW 629 1 0 -2.0346858 -1.1804331 0 -1.9016146 -1.0114567 0.01968504
GW 630 1 0 -1.9016146 -1.0114567 0 -1.7544886 -0.8546063 0.01968504
GW 631 1 0 -1.7544886 -0.8546063 0 -1.5944098 -0.7109449 0.01968504
GW 632 1 0 -1.5944098 -0.7109449 0 -1.4225988 -0.5815748 0.01968504
GW 633 1 0 -1.4225988 -0.5815748 0 -1.2403157 -0.4674409 0.01968504
GW 634 1 0 -1.2403157 -0.4674409 0 -1.0488976 -0.3694094 0.01968504
GW 635 1 0 -1.0488976 -0.3694094 0 -0.8497646 -0.288189 0.01968504
GW 636 1 0 -0.8497646 -0.288189 0 -0.6443705 -0.2243701 0.01968504
GW 642 1 0 -0.6443705 -0.2243701 0 -0.6859449 0.04968504 0.01968504
GW 643 1 0 0.63507835 -0.2251575 0 0.68889764 0.04885827 0.01968504
GW 644 9 0 0.5115748 -7.8582677 0 0.3142122 -5.1209449 0.01968504
GW 645 9 0 -0.518189 -7.8576378 0 -0.3294098 -5.1205512 0.01968504
GW 646 9 0 -0.1753937 -7.8874016 0 -0.1151575 -5.1391732 0.01968504
GW 647 9 0 0.16874016 -7.8876378 0 0.09992047 -5.1392913 0.01968504
GW 648 9 0 0.85062992 -7.7995276 0 0.52610236 -5.0842126 0.01968504
GW 649 9 0 1.1834252 -7.7118898 0 0.73409449 -5.0294488 0.01968504
GW 650 9 0 1.50740157 -7.5959449 0 0.93657441 -4.9570079 0.01968504
GW 651 9 0 1.82023622 -7.4525984 0 1.13212559 -4.8674016 0.01968504
GW 652 1 0 0.84039331 -0.2892126 0 1.025 -0.025 0.01968504
GW 653 3 0 1.03944843 -0.3706693 0 1.35350394 -0.1275197 0.01968504
GW 654 3 0 1.23074764 -0.468937 0 1.6719685 -0.2578346 0.01968504
GW 655 3 0 1.41291299 -0.5832677 0 1.97807087 -0.4150787 0.01968504
GW 656 3 0 1.58456654 -0.712874 0 2.26952756 -0.5980315 0.01968504
GW 657 3 0 1.74444843 -0.8566929 0 2.54417323 -0.8053543 0.01968504
GW 658 3 0 1.89137756 -1.0137795 0 2.79996063 -1.0355118 0.01968504
GW 659 5 0 2.02425157 -1.182874 0 3.03503937 -1.286811 0.01968504
GW 660 5 0 2.14208622 -1.3627953 0 3.2476378 -1.5573622 0.01968504
GW 661 5 0 2.24405472 -1.5521654 0 3.43622047 -1.8451969 0.01968504
GW 662 9 0 2.1196063 -7.2829134 0 1.3192122 -4.7613386 0.01968504
GW 663 9 0 2.40326772 -7.0881102 0 1.49649567 -4.6395669 0.01968504
GW 664 5 0 2.39740118 -1.953622 0 3.59937008 -2.148189 0.01968504
GW 665 5 0 2.44759803 -2.1627165 0 3.73582677 -2.4640945 0.01968504
GW 666 5 0 2.47968465 -2.3753937 0 3.84468504 -2.7905512 0.01968504
GW 667 5 0 2.48854291 -2.8050394 0 3.92503937 -3.1251181 0.01968504
GW 668 5 0 2.4652752 -3.0188583 0 3.97637795 -3.4653937 0.01968504
GW 669 5 0 2.42370039 -3.2298425 0 3.99822835 -3.8088189 0.01968504
GW 670 7 0 2.28704685 -3.6372835 0 3.99051181 -4.1528346 0.01968504
GW 671 7 0 2.19295236 -3.8307087 0 3.95326772 -4.4949213 0.01968504
GW 672 7 0 3.79145669 -5.163189 0 2.08259803 -4.015315 0.01968504
GW 673 7 0 3.51759843 -5.7938976 0 1.95681063 -4.1897638 0.01968504
GW 674 9 0 2.66913386 -6.8696457 0 1.66267677 -4.5030315 0.01968504
GW 675 9 0 3.13976378 -6.3683465 0 1.81649567 -4.3527165 0.01968504
GW 676 9 0 -0.8572047 -7.7985039 0 -0.5412996 -5.0835827 0.01968504
GW 677 9 0 -1.1898425 -7.7104331 0 -0.7491736 -5.0285433 0.01968504
GW 678 9 0 -1.5137008 -7.5941339 0 -0.9516146 -4.9558268 0.01968504
GW 679 9 0 -1.826378 -7.4503937 0 -1.1470087 -4.8660236 0.01968504
GW 680 9 0 -2.1255118 -7.280315 0 -1.3339768 -4.7597244 0.01968504
GW 681 9 0 -2.408937 -7.0851969 0 -1.5111425 -4.6377559 0.01968504
GW 682 9 0 -2.6745276 -6.866378 0 -1.6771268 -4.5010236 0.01968504
GW 683 9 0 -3.1445669 -6.3645669 0 -1.8307488 -4.3505118 0.01968504
GW 684 7 0 -3.5216929 -5.7896063 0 -1.9709055 -4.1873622 0.01968504
GW 685 7 0 -3.7948031 -5.1585827 0 -2.0964969 -4.0127559 0.01968504
GW 686 7 0 -3.9558268 -4.4901181 0 -2.2066146 -3.8280315 0.01968504
GW 687 7 0 -3.9926378 -4.1479921 0 -2.3004339 -3.6345276 0.01968504
GW 688 5 0 -3.9999606 -3.8039764 0 -2.4366146 -3.2269291 0.01968504
GW 689 5 0 -3.9776378 -3.4605906 0 -2.4779138 -3.0158661 0.01968504
GW 690 5 0 -3.9259449 -3.1203543 0 -2.5009457 -2.8020079 0.01968504
GW 691 5 0 -3.8451575 -2.7858661 0 -2.4915756 -2.3723622 0.01968504
GW 692 5 0 -3.7359055 -2.4595669 0 -2.4592528 -2.1597638 0.01968504
GW 693 5 0 -3.5990551 -2.1438583 0 -2.4087406 -1.9507087 0.01968504
GW 694 5 0 -3.4355512 -1.841063 0 -2.2549606 -1.5494094 0.01968504
GW 695 5 0 -3.2466535 -1.5534252 0 -2.1527567 -1.3601969 0.01968504
GW 696 3 0 -3.0337008 -1.2831102 0 -2.0346858 -1.1804331 0.01968504
GW 697 3 0 -2.7983071 -1.032126 0 -1.9016146 -1.0114567 0.01968504
GW 698 3 0 -2.5422441 -0.8022441 0 -1.7544886 -0.8546063 0.01968504
GW 699 3 0 -2.2673228 -0.5952756 0 -1.5944098 -0.7109449 0.01968504
GW 700 3 0 -1.9756693 -0.4126772 0 -1.4225988 -0.5815748 0.01968504
GW 701 3 0 -1.6693701 -0.2558268 0 -1.2403157 -0.4674409 0.01968504
GW 702 3 0 -1.350748 -0.1258661 0 -1.0488976 -0.3694094 0.01968504
GW 703 1 0 -1.022126 -0.0237795 0 -0.8497646 -0.288189 0.01968504
GW 704 5 0 -0.6859843 0.0463386 0 0.6888583 0.0471654 0.03598084
GW 705 9 0 2.91519688 6.72515749 0 1.6626373 4.59905 516 0.01968504
GW 706 7 0 3.34102365 6.1852756 0 1.8164562 4.448740 2 0.01968504
GW 707 7 0 3.6680709 5.58047245 0 1.9567712 4.285787 45 0.01968504
GW 708 7 0 3.88673232 4.92858268 0 2.0825586 4.11133 863 0.01968504
GW 709 5 0 3.99818901 3.9048425 0 2.364094 3.5325591 0.01968504
GW 710 5 0 3.8446457 2.8865748 0 2.493346 2.686063 0.01968504
GW 711 5 0 3.43618113 1.9412205 0 2.3293302 1.845590 6 0.01968504
GW 712 9 0 -2.9203937 6.72161418 0 -1.677166 4.59704729 0.01968504
GW 713 7 0 -3.3455512 6.18122048 0 -1.830788 4.44653548 0.01968504
GW 714 7 0 -3.6718898 5.57602363 0 -1.970945 4.28338587 0.01968504
GW 715 7 0 -3.8897638 4.92385827 0 -2.096536 4.10877957 0.01968504
GW 716 5 0 -4 3.9 0 -2.377323 3.52968508 0.01968504
GW 717 5 0 -3.8451969 2.8818898 0 -2.505552 2.6830315 0.01968504
GW 718 5 0 -3.4355906 1.9370866 0 -2.340512 1.842756 0.01968504
GW 719 5 0 2.32936969 -1.7495669 0 3.43622047 -1.8451969 0.01968504
GW 720 5 0 -3.4355512 -1.841063 0 -2.3404728 -1.7467323 0.01968504
GW 721 5 0 -3.8451575 -2.7858661 0 -2.5055126 -2.5870079 0.01968504
GW 722 5 0 2.49338543 -2.5900394 0 3.84468504 -2.7905512 0.01968504
GW 723 5 0 2.36413346 -3.4365354 0 3.99822835 -3.8088189 0.01968504
GW 725 9 0 2.91523622 -6.6291339 0 1.81649567 -4.3527165 0.01968504
GW 726 7 0 3.34106299 -6.089252 0 1.95681063 -4.1897638 0.01968504
GW 727 7 0 3.66811024 -5.4844488 0 2.08259803 -4.015315 0.01968504
GW 728 7 0 3.88677165 -4.8325591 0 2.19295236 -3.8307087 0.01968504
GW 729 9 0 -2.9203543 -6.6255906 0 -1.8307488 -4.3505118 0.01968504
GW 730 7 0 -3.3455118 -6.0851969 0 -1.9709055 -4.1873622 0.01968504
GW 731 7 0 -3.6718504 -5.48 0 -2.0964969 -4.0127559 0.01968504
GW 732 7 0 -3.8897244 -4.8278346 0 -2.2066146 -3.8280315 0.01968504
GS 0 0 0.0254 ' All in in.
GE 0
EK
EX 0 704 3 0 1 0
GN -1
FR 0 38 0 0 473 6
RP 0 1 10 1510 90 0 0 20 0 0
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post #1566 of 4829 Old 02-01-2009, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

OK, using an 8 inch outer ring size and 5 inch inner ring size, about 1/4 inch metal between the two rings, 18 gauge metal and approx 1 1/4 inch feed gap I did a quick wire model approximating the solid in 4nec2

Why would you assume the currents are constrained in a somewhat radial path? Any theory behind that?

Quote:


Lots of warnings about intersecting volumes (well duh, thats what it is, heh) The "too sharp angle" warnings can be gotten rid of by deleting those wires, it wont change the result.

The nec rules are broken when too many wires are in excessively close proximity, at sharp angles, for the same reasons the length/radius ratio cannot be too low and that the number of segments must be sufficient. I can tell you about digital processing in software: a double has 48 bits of precision and these are easy to loose with complex recurrent computations. The warnings exist for that reason: they inject imprecision and degenerate. I'm afraid this model could be exceeding limits, although the results are compelling. NEC is not cut for solid simulation (not that I know of anyway).


Yet, I would be curious to assert if the single lop and the double loop, as wires, actually have the said 160 ohms at the exact wavelength of 1 circumference (and if they do combine to 80 or 320 ohms as discussed earlier). I will check that later.

Then, I would combine 7 wires loops from 8", 7.5", 7", 6.5", 6", 5.5", 5" radius and see the results. I'm assuming the current are likely to resonate in circular paths. But that too is an intuition. I would have to dig more into books...
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post #1567 of 4829 Old 02-01-2009, 10:11 PM
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Quote:


Why would you assume the currents are constrained in a somewhat radial path? Any theory behind that?

Nope other than its round, but do you have any reason to doubt the equations used in the NEC2 engine, developed by Lawrence Livermore Labs, and tested and used by the U.S. Navy for over 20 years, and then released to the public for over 13 years arent correct ??? From what I have observed, the NEC2 engine is more debugged than any other software that I have ever encounted.
Youre concentrating on the trees, but ignoring the forest. Go for the gain and low SWR. You'll drive yourself nuts with the currents analysis, heh.

Quote:


I'm afraid this model could be exceeding limits, although the results are compelling. NEC is not cut for solid simulation (not that I know of anyway).

Thats why I said delete those offending wires, but it wont change the result.
The way you do a solid similuation is to have an infinite number of wires, just like increasing the triangles on a 3D game simulation or picture to get more resolution. (I learned this from Ken Nists models) But after a certain size reduction at a certain given frequency, the changes in gain are miniscule, like hundreds or thousands of a db. For UHF reflector sizes, the performance/benefit ratio (if you know what I mean) is about 1 to 2 inches.
The problem with infinite segment modeling, of course is the added computer power needed with more and more segments.

Quote:


I will check that later.

I think youll find that doubting the NEC2 engine equations is going to result in a lot of frustrating time wasting, although a good learning experience.

Please feel free to play with the model. Move it around. Add stuff. Flip it. Just remember to save so you have a reference. Basically, I dont have that much time to give to a low gain antenna and trying to make a $2 balun, if you know what I mean.

Have fun.
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post #1568 of 4829 Old 02-02-2009, 09:50 AM
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Interesting. I came up with a similar design but made it a sandwich instead of side-by-side. It does not seem to be directionally dependent.
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post #1569 of 4829 Old 02-02-2009, 09:56 AM
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http://www.room4me.com/hosting/talke...EarAntenna.htm

Placed it in the attic and I now have over 30 digital channels. Expecting more once broadcasters boost their signal after Feb 17 2009.
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post #1570 of 4829 Old 02-02-2009, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newsjnkie View Post

http://www.room4me.com/hosting/talke...EarAntenna.htm

Placed it in the attic and I now have over 30 digital channels. Expecting more once broadcasters boost their signal after Feb 17 2009.

what real channel numbers did you get?

what are your distances from stations?

you can find your signal information at

tvfool.com

then you can compare your antenna performance to signal strength.

all would be good information to help people decide if your antenna design would also work for them.

good doing getting 30 channels with such an inexpensive antenna.
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post #1571 of 4829 Old 02-02-2009, 11:41 AM
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I had the best luck with the BlogSpot 4 bay design with using 6-gauge copper (grounding wire) on the top 4 whiskers , and using coat hanger steel on the bottom 4 whiskers. I used insulated stranded 8 ga copper from an automobile amplifier install kit. I am using the tin foil back guard and RG-6 instead of RG-59 cable and I am getting the best results with this setup.
I have painted the wood and the back of the reflector board with aluminum paint. This has not shorted or seems to be an issue. It looks kinda cool all silver as well.

I am using steel washers, but brass screws where the wire meets the whiskers.
It works very well. Though, I am having trouble pulling in channel 3 in the Cleveland Area. Channels 5 and 8 are coming in HD very well. I have it on the first floor, lots of trees in the area. I am considering moving it into the attic, using 25' of RG-6 to connect with my HDTV.

Overall this is working great! If I can just get channel 3 in HD or at all! - that would be super!

Let me know if you have any thoughts or suggestions on this Antenna. I am planning to build one for another TV in the next month or so.
Thanks in advance,
George
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post #1572 of 4829 Old 02-02-2009, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnpost View Post

what real channel numbers did you get?

what are your distances from stations?

you can find your signal information at

tvfool.com

then you can compare your antenna performance to signal strength.

all would be good information to help people decide if your antenna design would also work for them.

good doing getting 30 channels with such an inexpensive antenna.

Thanks for the link to tvfool.com. What a great tool! I crosschecked my channels with what the report showed I should get and posted the details back on this page...

http://www.room4me.com/hosting/talke...EarAntenna.htm

NOTE: I don't know how to get a signal strength display from my panasonic DMR-EZ27 tuner. However, all the digital channels I listed as received are coming in smoothly without drop-outs or artifacts of any kind.
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post #1573 of 4829 Old 02-02-2009, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

...do you have any reason to doubt the equations used in the NEC2 engine

It's not the equations I doubt, I suggested that we exceeded the operational parameters of the program. Quoted from the nec2 manual:

"Proper choice of the segments and patches for a model is the most critical step to obtaining accurate results. [...] Guidelines for choosing segments and patches are given below and should be followed carefully by anyone using the NEC code."

"Somewhat longer segments may be acceptable on long
wires with no abrupt changes while shorter segments, 0.05 Lambda or less,
may be needed in modeling critical regions of an antenna."

"Use of a small Delta/a at a bend, ("Delta" is segment length, "a" is segment radius) which results in the center of one segment falling within the radius of the other segment, generally leads to severe error."

"Although extensive tests have not been conducted, it is safe to specify that wires should be several radii apart."

And it goes on and on. As you can see, it is very easy to provoke enough innacuracies to throw the simulation off. That's why all warnings should be understood, maybe discarded but not blindly. Being a software developer myself, I can tell you that no computer program can maintain infinite precision when solving numerically integral equations. That's all I was referring to.

If you exploit the nec2 engine within param, I'm sure it is a good software. Otherwise, their disclaimer applies. Sorry if this disrupts the trust you had in the software (but I sense it won't... lol).


Quote:


You'll drive yourself nuts with the currents analysis, heh.

Thanks for worrying about me...


Quote:


The way you do a solid simulation is to have an infinite number of wires, just like increasing the triangles on a 3D game simulation or picture to get more resolution. (I learned this from Ken Nists models). But after a certain size reduction at a certain given frequency, the changes in gain are miniscule, like hundreds or thousands of a db. For UHF reflector sizes, the performance/benefit ratio (if you know what I mean) is about 1 to 2 inches.
The problem with infinite segment modeling, of course is the added computer power needed with more and more segments.

I'm sure Ken Nist is a very knowledgeable person. I would love to read from him how can densely packed nearly parallel wires can emulate a solid without violating the limits of the nec2 engine.


Quote:


Basically, I dont have that much time to give to a low gain antenna and trying to make a $2 balun, if you know what I mean.

I understand. My context is different than most. Just to restate my goals, I needed:
a) a compact antenna that would have a lower chance of occupying both a hot spot and a "cold" one.
b) a above average gain to catch weaker emitters
c) a do-it-yourself project that will be fun and low cost.

FYI, getting a 1:1 balun would likely cost me 8-15$ to get, and/or too much time to search/wait for. I had much more fun learning to make my own.

Never feel obligated to experience the intellectual pain I'm willing to inflict myself! It's just a hobby.

Have fun too!
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post #1574 of 4829 Old 02-03-2009, 07:07 AM
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Glad to see that the double loop clearstream clone worked out. Large flat irregular shapes are hard to model with a great deal of confidence that the model is correct, for me anyways.

I tried to model a solid bowtie and it didn't really perform like the model showed it should when I tested the actual build. I tried several different ways the best (closest to the actual build) seemed to be the one with the outline of the element and only minimal wires in the center for fill-in.
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post #1575 of 4829 Old 02-03-2009, 12:34 PM
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newsjnkie, with signals as strong as yours, an even cheaper rabbit ears should do as well or better. Your antenna might work even better if you disconnected the coax shield from the antenna.

The only reasons I can think of for stripping 15' of Romex is to save a trip to the store, or because you got scrap for free. It should be cheaper to buy bare copper wire than to pay for the insulation and sheath that you're throwing away.
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post #1576 of 4829 Old 02-03-2009, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
I tried several different ways the best (closest to the actual build) seemed to be the one with the outline of the element and only minimal wires in the center for fill-in.

Yep, that makes modeling a solid surface much easier and for all practical purposes is good enough using an appropriate mesh size for that frequency.
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post #1577 of 4829 Old 02-03-2009, 10:59 PM
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Quote:


That's why all warnings should be understood, maybe discarded but not blindly.

Yep. In this case the warnings about the intersecting volumes are absolutely correct per the pictures of your build, thats why I wrote "duh". I just calls em as I sees em, heh. The model does show youre getting a little bit better gain than a single loop, but not the expected approx 2.5 dBi gain increase from adding a second loop. I dont think this is what is going on under Clearstream C2 heavy plastic. You can test this yourself by taking off one loop of your build.

Change your build to the traditional stacking method shown in this picture to get that additional gain. I just used a 1 inch spacing between the loops, given the distance constraints of the C2 in that area. The SWR is also low using 300 ohm impedance, so put a normal balun on it. AntennasDirect also shows using 300 ohm impedance in their graphs for the C2. They plot VSWR, which is fine, but then they plot "Directivity" not Gain, like everyone else. "Directivity" can be a very misleading term.



The NEC file:

Code:
CM 8 inch outer ring, 5 inch inner ring, approx 1/4 inch spacing, approx 1 1/4  inch gap.       'approx 1 inch between hoops.
CE
GW      3       1       0       1.02360236      0.5738582       0       1.3521063       0.6763779       0.01968504
GW      4       1       0       1.3521063       0.6763779       0       1.67057087      0.8066929       0.01968504
GW      5       1       0       1.67057087      0.8066929       0       1.97667323      0.963937        0.01968504
GW      6       1       0       1.97667323      0.963937        0       2.26812992      1.1468897       0.01968504
GW      7       1       0       2.26812992      1.1468897       0       2.54277559      1.3542126       0.01968504
GW      8       1       0       2.54277559      1.3542126       0       2.79856299      1.58437 0.01968504
GW      9       1       0       2.79856299      1.58437 0       3.03364173      1.8356693       0.01968504
GW      10      1       0       3.03364173      1.8356693       0       3.24624016      2.1062204       0.01968504
GW      11      1       0       3.24624016      2.1062204       0       3.3405315       2.25013775      0.01968504
GW      736     1       0       3.3405315       2.25013775      0       3.43482283      2.3940551       0.01968504
GW      12      1       0       3.43482283      2.3940551       0       3.59797244      2.6970472       0.01968504
GW      13      1       0       3.59797244      2.6970472       0       3.73442913      3.0129527       0.01968504
GW      14      1       0       3.73442913      3.0129527       0       3.78885827      3.17618105      0.01968504
GW      735     1       0       3.78885827      3.17618105      0       3.8432874       3.3394094       0.01968504
GW      15      1       0       3.8432874       3.3394094       0       3.92364173      3.6739763       0.01968504
GW      16      1       0       3.92364173      3.6739763       0       3.97498031      4.0142519       0.01968504
GW      17      1       0       3.97498031      4.0142519       0       3.98590551      4.1859645       0.01968504
GW      742     1       0       3.98590551      4.1859645       0       3.99683071      4.3576771       0.01968504
GW      18      1       0       3.99683071      4.3576771       0       3.99297244      4.52968499      0.01968504
GW      812     1       0       3.99297244      4.52968499      0       3.98911417      4.70169287      0.01968504
GW      19      1       0       3.98911417      4.70169287      0       3.95187008      5.04377949      0.01968504
GW      20      1       0       3.95187008      5.04377949      0       3.88537402      5.38141728      0.01968504
GW      21      1       0       3.88537402      5.38141728      0       3.79005905      5.7120472       0.01968504
GW      22      1       0       3.79005905      5.7120472       0       3.6667126       6.03330705      0.01968504
GW      23      1       0       3.6667126       6.03330705      0       3.51620079      6.34275587      0.01968504
GW      24      1       0       3.51620079      6.34275587      0       3.33966535      6.6381102       0.01968504
GW      25      1       0       3.33966535      6.6381102       0       3.13836614      6.91720468      0.01968504
GW      26      1       0       3.13836614      6.91720468      0       2.91383858      7.17799209      0.01968504
GW      27      1       0       2.91383858      7.17799209      0       2.66773622      7.4185039       0.01968504
GW      28      1       0       2.66773622      7.4185039       0       2.40187008      7.63696846      0.01968504
GW      29      1       0       2.40187008      7.63696846      0       2.11820866      7.83177161      0.01968504
GW      30      1       0       2.11820866      7.83177161      0       1.81883858      8.00145665      0.01968504
GW      31      1       0       1.81883858      8.00145665      0       1.50600394      8.14480311      0.01968504
GW      32      1       0       1.50600394      8.14480311      0       1.18202756      8.26074799      0.01968504
GW      33      1       0       1.18202756      8.26074799      0       0.84923228      8.34838579      0.01968504
GW      34      1       0       0.84923228      8.34838579      0       0.51017716      8.40712594      0.01968504
GW      35      1       0       0.51017716      8.40712594      0       0.16734252      8.43649602      0.01968504
GW      36      1       0       0.16734252      8.43649602      0       -0.1767914      8.4362598       0.01968504
GW      37      1       0       -0.1767914      8.4362598       0       -0.5195867      8.40649602      0.01968504
GW      38      1       0       -0.5195867      8.40649602      0       -0.8586024      8.34736216      0.01968504
GW      39      1       0       -0.8586024      8.34736216      0       -1.1912402      8.2592913       0.01968504
GW      40      1       0       -1.1912402      8.2592913       0       -1.5150985      8.14299209      0.01968504
GW      41      1       0       -1.5150985      8.14299209      0       -1.8277756      7.99925193      0.01968504
GW      42      1       0       -1.8277756      7.99925193      0       -2.1269095      7.82917319      0.01968504
GW      43      1       0       -2.1269095      7.82917319      0       -2.4103347      7.63405508      0.01968504
GW      44      1       0       -2.4103347      7.63405508      0       -2.6759252      7.41523618      0.01968504
GW      45      1       0       -2.6759252      7.41523618      0       -2.921752       7.17444878      0.01968504
GW      46      1       0       -2.921752       7.17444878      0       -3.1459646      6.91342516      0.01968504
GW      47      1       0       -3.1459646      6.91342516      0       -3.3469095      6.63405508      0.01968504
GW      48      1       0       -3.3469095      6.63405508      0       -3.5230906      6.33846453      0.01968504
GW      49      1       0       -3.5230906      6.33846453      0       -3.6732481      6.02885823      0.01968504
GW      50      1       0       -3.6732481      6.02885823      0       -3.7962008      5.7074409       0.01968504
GW      51      1       0       -3.7962008      5.7074409       0       -3.8911221      5.37669287      0.01968504
GW      52      1       0       -3.8911221      5.37669287      0       -3.9572245      5.03897634      0.01968504
GW      53      1       0       -3.9572245      5.03897634      0       -3.9940355      4.69685035      0.01968504
GW      54      1       0       -3.9940355      4.69685035      0       -4.0013583      4.3528346       0.01968504
GW      55      1       0       -4.0013583      4.3528346       0       -3.9901969      4.1811417       0.01968504
GW      749     1       0       -3.9901969      4.1811417       0       -3.9790355      4.0094488       0.01968504
GW      56      1       0       -3.9790355      4.0094488       0       -3.9273426      3.6692126       0.01968504
GW      57      1       0       -3.9273426      3.6692126       0       -3.8465552      3.3347244       0.01968504
GW      58      1       0       -3.8465552      3.3347244       0       -3.7919292      3.1715748       0.01968504
GW      759     1       0       -3.7919292      3.1715748       0       -3.7373032      3.0084252       0.01968504
GW      59      1       0       -3.7373032      3.0084252       0       -3.6004528      2.6927165       0.01968504
GW      60      1       0       -3.6004528      2.6927165       0       -3.4369489      2.3899212       0.01968504
GW      61      1       0       -3.4369489      2.3899212       0       -3.3425001      2.2461023       0.01968504
GW      733     1       0       -3.3425001      2.2461023       0       -3.2480512      2.1022834       0.01968504
GW      62      1       0       -3.2480512      2.1022834       0       -3.0350985      1.8319685       0.01968504
GW      63      1       0       -3.0350985      1.8319685       0       -2.7997048      1.5809842       0.01968504
GW      64      1       0       -2.7997048      1.5809842       0       -2.5436418      1.3511023       0.01968504
GW      65      1       0       -2.5436418      1.3511023       0       -2.2687205      1.1441338       0.01968504
GW      66      1       0       -2.2687205      1.1441338       0       -1.977067       0.9615354       0.01968504
GW      67      1       0       -1.977067       0.9615354       0       -1.6707678      0.804685        0.01968504
GW      68      1       0       -1.6707678      0.804685        0       -1.3521457      0.6747244       0.01968504
GW      69      1       0       -1.3521457      0.6747244       0       -1.0235237      0.5726378       0.01968504
GW      320     1       0       0.6336807       0.7740157       0       0.8389957       0.8380709       0.01968504
GW      321     1       0       0.8389957       0.8380709       0       1.0380507       0.9195276       0.01968504
GW      322     1       0       1.0380507       0.9195276       0       1.2293499       1.0177953       0.01968504
GW      323     1       0       1.2293499       1.0177953       0       1.4115153       1.132126        0.01968504
GW      324     1       0       1.4115153       1.132126        0       1.5831688       1.2617323       0.01968504
GW      325     1       0       1.5831688       1.2617323       0       1.7430507       1.4055512       0.01968504
GW      326     1       0       1.7430507       1.4055512       0       1.8899798       1.5626378       0.01968504
GW      327     1       0       1.8899798       1.5626378       0       2.0228538       1.7317323       0.01968504
GW      328     1       0       2.0228538       1.7317323       0       2.1406885       1.9116535       0.01968504
GW      329     1       0       2.1406885       1.9116535       0       2.242657        2.1010236       0.01968504
GW      330     1       0       2.242657        2.1010236       0       2.3279719       2.2984252       0.01968504
GW      331     1       0       2.3279719       2.2984252       0       2.3960034       2.5024803       0.01968504
GW      332     1       0       2.3960034       2.5024803       0       2.4462003       2.7115748       0.01968504
GW      333     1       0       2.4462003       2.7115748       0       2.4782869       2.924252        0.01968504
GW      334     1       0       2.4782869       2.924252        0       2.4919877       3.1388976       0.01968504
GW      335     1       0       2.4919877       3.1388976       0       2.4871452       3.35389764      0.01968504
GW      336     1       0       2.4871452       3.35389764      0       2.4638775       3.56771653      0.01968504
GW      337     1       0       2.4638775       3.56771653      0       2.4223027       3.77870079      0.01968504
GW      338     1       0       2.4223027       3.77870079      0       2.3627357       3.9853937       0.01968504
GW      339     1       0       2.3627357       3.9853937       0       2.2856491       4.18614173      0.01968504
GW      340     1       0       2.2856491       4.18614173      0       2.1915546       4.37956693      0.01968504
GW      345     1       0       1.661279        5.05188976      0       1.4950979       5.1884252       0.01968504
GW      346     1       0       1.4950979       5.1884252       0       1.3178145       5.31019685      0.01968504
GW      347     1       0       1.3178145       5.31019685      0       1.1307279       5.41625984      0.01968504
GW      348     1       0       1.1307279       5.41625984      0       0.9351767       5.50586614      0.01968504
GW      349     1       0       0.9351767       5.50586614      0       0.7326967       5.57830709      0.01968504
GW      350     1       0       0.7326967       5.57830709      0       0.5247047       5.63307087      0.01968504
GW      351     1       0       0.5247047       5.63307087      0       0.3128147       5.66980315      0.01968504
GW      352     1       0       0.3128147       5.66980315      0       0.0985227       5.68814961      0.01968504
GW      353     1       0       0.0985227       5.68814961      0       -0.1165553      5.6880315       0.01968504
GW      354     1       0       -0.1165553      5.6880315       0       -0.3308073      5.66940945      0.01968504
GW      355     1       0       -0.3308073      5.66940945      0       -0.5426973      5.63244094      0.01968504
GW      356     1       0       -0.5426973      5.63244094      0       -0.7505713      5.57740157      0.01968504
GW      357     1       0       -0.7505713      5.57740157      0       -0.9530123      5.50468504      0.01968504
GW      358     1       0       -0.9530123      5.50468504      0       -1.1484063      5.41488189      0.01968504
GW      359     1       0       -1.1484063      5.41488189      0       -1.3353743      5.30858268      0.01968504
GW      365     1       0       -2.0978943      4.56161417      0       -2.2080123      4.37688976      0.01968504
GW      366     1       0       -2.2080123      4.37688976      0       -2.3018313      4.18338583      0.01968504
GW      367     1       0       -2.3018313      4.18338583      0       -2.3786813      3.98251968      0.01968504
GW      368     1       0       -2.3786813      3.98251968      0       -2.4380123      3.7757874       0.01968504
GW      369     1       0       -2.4380123      3.7757874       0       -2.4793113      3.56472441      0.01968504
GW      370     1       0       -2.4793113      3.56472441      0       -2.5023433      3.35086614      0.01968504
GW      371     1       0       -2.5023433      3.35086614      0       -2.5069103      3.1358661       0.01968504
GW      372     1       0       -2.5069103      3.1358661       0       -2.4929733      2.9212205       0.01968504
GW      373     1       0       -2.4929733      2.9212205       0       -2.4606503      2.708622        0.01968504
GW      374     1       0       -2.4606503      2.708622        0       -2.4101383      2.4995669       0.01968504
GW      375     1       0       -2.4101383      2.4995669       0       -2.3418703      2.2955906       0.01968504
GW      376     1       0       -2.3418703      2.2955906       0       -2.2563583      2.0982677       0.01968504
GW      377     1       0       -2.2563583      2.0982677       0       -2.1541543      1.9090551       0.01968504
GW      378     1       0       -2.1541543      1.9090551       0       -2.0360833      1.7292913       0.01968504
GW      379     1       0       -2.0360833      1.7292913       0       -1.9030123      1.560315        0.01968504
GW      380     1       0       -1.9030123      1.560315        0       -1.7558863      1.4034646       0.01968504
GW      381     1       0       -1.7558863      1.4034646       0       -1.5958073      1.2598031       0.01968504
GW      382     1       0       -1.5958073      1.2598031       0       -1.4239963      1.1304331       0.01968504
GW      383     1       0       -1.4239963      1.1304331       0       -1.2417133      1.0162992       0.01968504
GW      384     1       0       -1.2417133      1.0162992       0       -1.0502953      0.9182677       0.01968504
GW      385     1       0       -1.0502953      0.9182677       0       -0.8511623      0.8370472       0.01968504
GW      386     1       0       -0.8511623      0.8370472       0       -0.6457683      0.7732283       0.01968504
GW      405     1       0       -0.6457683      0.7732283       0       -0.6873426      0.4991732       0.01968504
GW      415     5       0       -0.5195867      8.40649602      0       -0.3308073      5.66940945      0.01968504
GW      434     5       0       0.16734252      8.43649602      0       0.0985227       5.68814961      0.01968504
GW      435     5       0       0.84923228      8.34838579      0       0.5247047       5.63307087      0.01968504
GW      437     5       0       1.50600394      8.14480311      0       0.9351767       5.50586614      0.01968504
GW      440     1       0       1.0380507       0.9195276       0       1.3521063       0.6763779       0.01968504
GW      442     1       0       1.4115153       1.132126        0       1.97667323      0.963937        0.01968504
GW      444     1       0       1.7430507       1.4055512       0       2.54277559      1.3542126       0.01968504
GW      446     3       0       2.0228538       1.7317323       0       3.03364173      1.8356693       0.01968504
GW      449     5       0       2.11820866      7.83177161      0       1.3178145       5.31019685      0.01968504
GW      462     3       0       2.1915546       4.37956693      0       3.95187008      5.04377949      0.01968504
GW      463     3       0       3.79005905      5.7120472       0       2.0812003       4.56417323      0.01968504
GW      464     3       0       3.51620079      6.34275587      0       1.9554129       4.73862205      0.01968504
GW      466     5       0       2.66773622      7.4185039       0       1.661279        5.05188976      0.01968504
GW      467     3       0       3.13836614      6.91720468      0       1.8150979       4.9015748       0.01968504
GW      469     5       0       -1.1912402      8.2592913       0       -0.7505713      5.57740157      0.01968504
GW      471     5       0       -1.8277756      7.99925193      0       -1.1484063      5.41488189      0.01968504
GW      473     5       0       -2.4103347      7.63405508      0       -1.5125403      5.18661417      0.01968504
GW      479     3       0       -3.9940355      4.69685035      0       -2.3018313      4.18338583      0.01968504
GW      481     3       0       -3.9790355      4.0094488       0       -2.4793113      3.56472441      0.01968504
GW      490     1       0       -2.5436418      1.3511023       0       -1.7558863      1.4034646       0.01968504
GW      492     1       0       -1.977067       0.9615354       0       -1.4239963      1.1304331       0.01968504
GW      494     1       0       -1.3521457      0.6747244       0       -1.0502953      0.9182677       0.01968504
GW      711     3       0       3.43482283      2.3940551       0       2.3279719       2.2984252       0.01968504
GW      712     3       0       -2.921752       7.17444878      0       -1.6785243      5.04988189      0.01968504
GW      713     3       0       -3.3469095      6.63405508      0       -1.8321463      4.89937008      0.01968504
GW      714     3       0       -3.6732481      6.02885823      0       -1.9723033      4.73622047      0.01968504
GW      715     3       0       -3.8911221      5.37669287      0       -2.0978943      4.56161417      0.01968504
GW      717     3       0       -3.8465552      3.3347244       0       -2.5069103      3.1358661       0.01968504
GW      718     3       0       -3.4369489      2.3899212       0       -2.3418703      2.2955906       0.01968504
GW      800     1       0       -1.0235237      0.5726378       0       -0.6873426      0.4991732       0.01968504
GW      802     3       0       -3.6004528      2.6927165       0       -2.4606503      2.708622        0.01968504
GW      360     1       0       -1.3353743      5.30858268      0       -1.5125403      5.18661417      0.01968504
GW      804     1       0       -1.5125403      5.18661417      0       -1.6785243      5.04988189      0.01968504
GW      805     1       0       -1.6785243      5.04988189      0       -1.8321463      4.89937008      0.01968504
GW      806     1       0       -1.8321463      4.89937008      0       -1.9723033      4.73622047      0.01968504
GW      807     1       0       -1.9723033      4.73622047      0       -2.0978943      4.56161417      0.01968504
GW      808     3       0       -2.0360833      1.7292913       0       -3.0350985      1.8319685       0.01968504
GW      809     3       0       2.4462003       2.7115748       0       3.59797244      2.6970472       0.01968504
GW      810     3       0       2.4919877       3.1388976       0       3.8432874       3.3394094       0.01968504
GW      811     3       0       2.4638775       3.56771653      0       3.97498031      4.0142519       0.01968504
GW      813     3       0       3.99297244      4.52968499      0       2.3627357       3.9853937       0.01968504
GW      814     1       0       0.6336807       0.7740157       0       0.6875  0.5     0.01968504
GW      815     1       0       0.6875  0.5     0       1.02360236      0.5738582       0.01968504
GW      816     1       0       1.661279        5.05188976      0       1.8150979       4.9015748       0.01968504
GW      817     1       0       1.8150979       4.9015748       0       1.9554129       4.73862205      0.01968504
GW      818     1       0       1.9554129       4.73862205      0       2.0812003       4.56417323      0.01968504
GW      819     1       0       2.0812003       4.56417323      0       2.1915546       4.37956693      0.01968504
GW      820     1       0       1.02360236      -0.5738583      0       1.3521063       -0.676378       0.01968504
GW      821     1       0       1.3521063       -0.676378       0       1.67057087      -0.8066929      0.01968504
GW      822     1       0       1.67057087      -0.8066929      0       1.97667323      -0.963937       0.01968504
GW      823     1       0       1.97667323      -0.963937       0       2.26812992      -1.1468898      0.01968504
GW      824     1       0       2.26812992      -1.1468898      0       2.54277559      -1.3542126      0.01968504
GW      825     1       0       2.54277559      -1.3542126      0       2.79856299      -1.5843701      0.01968504
GW      826     1       0       2.79856299      -1.5843701      0       3.03364173      -1.8356693      0.01968504
GW      827     1       0       3.03364173      -1.8356693      0       3.24624016      -2.1062205      0.01968504
GW      828     1       0       3.24624016      -2.1062205      0       3.3405315       -2.2501378      0.01968504
GW      829     1       0       3.3405315       -2.2501378      0       3.43482283      -2.3940551      0.01968504
GW      830     1       0       3.43482283      -2.3940551      0       3.59797244      -2.6970472      0.01968504
GW      831     1       0       3.59797244      -2.6970472      0       3.73442913      -3.0129528      0.01968504
GW      832     1       0       3.73442913      -3.0129528      0       3.78885827      -3.1761811      0.01968504
GW      833     1       0       3.78885827      -3.1761811      0       3.8432874       -3.3394094      0.01968504
GW      834     1       0       3.8432874       -3.3394094      0       3.92364173      -3.6739764      0.01968504
GW      835     1       0       3.92364173      -3.6739764      0       3.97498031      -4.014252       0.01968504
GW      836     1       0       3.97498031      -4.014252       0       3.98590551      -4.1859646      0.01968504
GW      837     1       0       3.98590551      -4.1859646      0       3.99683071      -4.3576772      0.01968504
GW      838     1       0       3.99683071      -4.3576772      0       3.99297244      -4.529685       0.01968504
GW      839     1       0       3.99297244      -4.529685       0       3.98911417      -4.7016929      0.01968504
GW      840     1       0       3.98911417      -4.7016929      0       3.95187008      -5.0437795      0.01968504
GW      841     1       0       3.95187008      -5.0437795      0       3.88537402      -5.3814173      0.01968504
GW      842     1       0       3.88537402      -5.3814173      0       3.79005906      -5.7120472      0.01968504
GW      843     1       0       3.79005906      -5.7120472      0       3.6667126       -6.0333071      0.01968504
GW      844     1       0       3.6667126       -6.0333071      0       3.51620079      -6.3427559      0.01968504
GW      845     1       0       3.51620079      -6.3427559      0       3.33966535      -6.6381102      0.01968504
GW      846     1       0       3.33966535      -6.6381102      0       3.13836614      -6.9172047      0.01968504
GW      847     1       0       3.13836614      -6.9172047      0       2.91383858      -7.1779921      0.01968504
GW      848     1       0       2.91383858      -7.1779921      0       2.66773622      -7.4185039      0.01968504
GW      849     1       0       2.66773622      -7.4185039      0       2.40187008      -7.6369685      0.01968504
GW      850     1       0       2.40187008      -7.6369685      0       2.11820866      -7.8317717      0.01968504
GW      851     1       0       2.11820866      -7.8317717      0       1.81883858      -8.0014567      0.01968504
GW      852     1       0       1.81883858      -8.0014567      0       1.50600394      -8.1448031      0.01968504
GW      853     1       0       1.50600394      -8.1448031      0       1.18202756      -8.260748       0.01968504
GW      854     1       0       1.18202756      -8.260748       0       0.84923228      -8.3483858      0.01968504
GW      855     1       0       0.84923228      -8.3483858      0       0.51017717      -8.407126       0.01968504
GW      856     1       0       0.51017717      -8.407126       0       0.16734252      -8.4364961      0.01968504
GW      857     1       0       0.16734252      -8.4364961      0       -0.1767913      -8.4362598      0.01968504
GW      858     1       0       -0.1767913      -8.4362598      0       -0.5195866      -8.4064961      0.01968504
GW      859     1       0       -0.5195866      -8.4064961      0       -0.8586024      -8.3473622      0.01968504
GW      860     1       0       -0.8586024      -8.3473622      0       -1.1912402      -8.2592913      0.01968504
GW      861     1       0       -1.1912402      -8.2592913      0       -1.5150984      -8.1429921      0.01968504
GW      862     1       0       -1.5150984      -8.1429921      0       -1.8277756      -7.999252       0.01968504
GW      863     1       0       -1.8277756      -7.999252       0       -2.1269094      -7.8291732      0.01968504
GW      864     1       0       -2.1269094      -7.8291732      0       -2.4103346      -7.6340551      0.01968504
GW      865     1       0       -2.4103346      -7.6340551      0       -2.6759252      -7.4152362      0.01968504
GW      866     1       0       -2.6759252      -7.4152362      0       -2.921752       -7.1744488      0.01968504
GW      867     1       0       -2.921752       -7.1744488      0       -3.1459646      -6.9134252      0.01968504
GW      868     1       0       -3.1459646      -6.9134252      0       -3.3469094      -6.6340551      0.01968504
GW      869     1       0       -3.3469094      -6.6340551      0       -3.5230906      -6.3384646      0.01968504
GW      870     1       0       -3.5230906      -6.3384646      0       -3.673248       -6.0288583      0.01968504
GW      871     1       0       -3.673248       -6.0288583      0       -3.7962008      -5.7074409      0.01968504
GW      872     1       0       -3.7962008      -5.7074409      0       -3.891122       -5.3766929      0.01968504
GW      873     1       0       -3.891122       -5.3766929      0       -3.9572244      -5.0389764      0.01968504
GW      874     1       0       -3.9572244      -5.0389764      0       -3.9940354      -4.6968504      0.01968504
GW      875     1       0       -3.9940354      -4.6968504      0       -4.0013583      -4.3528346      0.01968504
GW      876     1       0       -4.0013583      -4.3528346      0       -3.9901969      -4.1811417      0.01968504
GW      877     1       0       -3.9901969      -4.1811417      0       -3.9790354      -4.0094488      0.01968504
GW      878     1       0       -3.9790354      -4.0094488      0       -3.9273425      -3.6692126      0.01968504
GW      879     1       0       -3.9273425      -3.6692126      0       -3.8465551      -3.3347244      0.01968504
GW      880     1       0       -3.8465551      -3.3347244      0       -3.7919291      -3.1715748      0.01968504
GW      881     1       0       -3.7919291      -3.1715748      0       -3.7373031      -3.0084252      0.01968504
GW      882     1       0       -3.7373031      -3.0084252      0       -3.6004528      -2.6927165      0.01968504
GW      883     1       0       -3.6004528      -2.6927165      0       -3.4369488      -2.3899213      0.01968504
GW      884     1       0       -3.4369488      -2.3899213      0       -3.3425 -2.2461024      0.01968504
GW      885     1       0       -3.3425 -2.2461024      0       -3.2480512      -2.1022835      0.01968504
GW      886     1       0       -3.2480512      -2.1022835      0       -3.0350984      -1.8319685      0.01968504
GW      887     1       0       -3.0350984      -1.8319685      0       -2.7997047      -1.5809843      0.01968504
GW      888     1       0       -2.7997047      -1.5809843      0       -2.5436417      -1.3511024      0.01968504
GW      889     1       0       -2.5436417      -1.3511024      0       -2.2687205      -1.1441339      0.01968504
GW      890     1       0       -2.2687205      -1.1441339      0       -1.9770669      -0.9615354      0.01968504
GW      891     1       0       -1.9770669      -0.9615354      0       -1.6707677      -0.804685       0.01968504
GW      892     1       0       -1.6707677      -0.804685       0       -1.3521457      -0.6747244      0.01968504
GW      893     1       0       -1.3521457      -0.6747244      0       -1.0235236      -0.5726378      0.01968504
GW      894     1       0       0.63368071      -0.7740157      0       0.83899567      -0.8380709      0.01968504
GW      895     1       0       0.83899567      -0.8380709      0       1.03805079      -0.9195276      0.01968504
GW      896     1       0       1.03805079      -0.9195276      0       1.22935 -1.0177953      0.01968504
GW      897     1       0       1.22935 -1.0177953      0       1.41151535      -1.132126       0.01968504
GW      898     1       0       1.41151535      -1.132126       0       1.5831689       -1.2617323      0.01968504
GW      899     1       0       1.5831689       -1.2617323      0       1.74305079      -1.4055512      0.01968504
GW      900     1       0       1.74305079      -1.4055512      0       1.88997992      -1.5626378      0.01968504
GW      901     1       0       1.88997992      -1.5626378      0       2.02285394      -1.7317323      0.01968504
GW      902     1       0       2.02285394      -1.7317323      0       2.14068858      -1.9116535      0.01968504
GW      903     1       0       2.14068858      -1.9116535      0       2.24265709      -2.1010236      0.01968504
GW      904     1       0       2.24265709      -2.1010236      0       2.32797205      -2.2984252      0.01968504
GW      905     1       0       2.32797205      -2.2984252      0       2.39600354      -2.5024803      0.01968504
GW      906     1       0       2.39600354      -2.5024803      0       2.44620039      -2.7115748      0.01968504
GW      907     1       0       2.44620039      -2.7115748      0       2.47828701      -2.924252       0.01968504
GW      908     1       0       2.47828701      -2.924252       0       2.4919878       -3.1388976      0.01968504
GW      909     1       0       2.4919878       -3.1388976      0       2.48714528      -3.3538976      0.01968504
GW      910     1       0       2.48714528      -3.3538976      0       2.46387756      -3.5677165      0.01968504
GW      911     1       0       2.46387756      -3.5677165      0       2.42230276      -3.7787008      0.01968504
GW      912     1       0       2.42230276      -3.7787008      0       2.36273583      -3.9853937      0.01968504
GW      913     1       0       2.36273583      -3.9853937      0       2.28564921      -4.1861417      0.01968504
GW      914     1       0       2.28564921      -4.1861417      0       2.19155472      -4.3795669      0.01968504
GW      915     1       0       1.66127913      -5.0518898      0       1.49509803      -5.1884252      0.01968504
GW      916     1       0       1.49509803      -5.1884252      0       1.31781457      -5.3101969      0.01968504
GW      917     1       0       1.31781457      -5.3101969      0       1.13072795      -5.4162598      0.01968504
GW      918     1       0       1.13072795      -5.4162598      0       0.93517677      -5.5058661      0.01968504
GW      919     1       0       0.93517677      -5.5058661      0       0.73269685      -5.5783071      0.01968504
GW      920     1       0       0.73269685      -5.5783071      0       0.52470472      -5.6330709      0.01968504
GW      921     1       0       0.52470472      -5.6330709      0       0.31281457      -5.6698031      0.01968504
GW      922     1       0       0.31281457      -5.6698031      0       0.09852283      -5.6881496      0.01968504
GW      923     1       0       0.09852283      -5.6881496      0       -0.1165551      -5.6880315      0.01968504
GW      924     1       0       -0.1165551      -5.6880315      0       -0.3308075      -5.6694094      0.01968504
GW      925     1       0       -0.3308075      -5.6694094      0       -0.5426972      -5.6324409      0.01968504
GW      926     1       0       -0.5426972      -5.6324409      0       -0.7505713      -5.5774016      0.01968504
GW      927     1       0       -0.7505713      -5.5774016      0       -0.9530122      -5.504685       0.01968504
GW      928     1       0       -0.9530122      -5.504685       0       -1.1484063      -5.4148819      0.01968504
GW      929     1       0       -1.1484063      -5.4148819      0       -1.3353744      -5.3085827      0.01968504
GW      930     1       0       -2.0978945      -4.5616142      0       -2.2080122      -4.3768898      0.01968504
GW      931     1       0       -2.2080122      -4.3768898      0       -2.3018315      -4.1833858      0.01968504
GW      932     1       0       -2.3018315      -4.1833858      0       -2.3786815      -3.9825197      0.01968504
GW      933     1       0       -2.3786815      -3.9825197      0       -2.4380122      -3.7757874      0.01968504
GW      934     1       0       -2.4380122      -3.7757874      0       -2.4793114      -3.5647244      0.01968504
GW      935     1       0       -2.4793114      -3.5647244      0       -2.5023433      -3.3508661      0.01968504
GW      936     1       0       -2.5023433      -3.3508661      0       -2.5069102      -3.1358661      0.01968504
GW      937     1       0       -2.5069102      -3.1358661      0       -2.4929732      -2.9212205      0.01968504
GW      938     1       0       -2.4929732      -2.9212205      0       -2.4606504      -2.708622       0.01968504
GW      939     1       0       -2.4606504      -2.708622       0       -2.4101382      -2.4995669      0.01968504
GW      940     1       0       -2.4101382      -2.4995669      0       -2.3418705      -2.2955906      0.01968504
GW      941     1       0       -2.3418705      -2.2955906      0       -2.2563583      -2.0982677      0.01968504
GW      942     1       0       -2.2563583      -2.0982677      0       -2.1541543      -1.9090551      0.01968504
GW      943     1       0       -2.1541543      -1.9090551      0       -2.0360835      -1.7292913      0.01968504
GW      944     1       0       -2.0360835      -1.7292913      0       -1.9030122      -1.560315       0.01968504
GW      945     1       0       -1.9030122      -1.560315       0       -1.7558862      -1.4034646      0.01968504
GW      946     1       0       -1.7558862      -1.4034646      0       -1.5958075      -1.2598031      0.01968504
GW      947     1       0       -1.5958075      -1.2598031      0       -1.4239965      -1.1304331      0.01968504
GW      948     1       0       -1.4239965      -1.1304331      0       -1.2417134      -1.0162992      0.01968504
GW      949     1       0       -1.2417134      -1.0162992      0       -1.0502953      -0.9182677      0.01968504
GW      950     1       0       -1.0502953      -0.9182677      0       -0.8511622      -0.8370472      0.01968504
GW      951     1       0       -0.8511622      -0.8370472      0       -0.6457681      -0.7732283      0.01968504
GW      952     1       0       -0.6457681      -0.7732283      0       -0.6873425      -0.4991732      0.01968504
GW      953     5       0       -0.5195866      -8.4064961      0       -0.3308075      -5.6694094      0.01968504
GW      954     5       0       0.16734252      -8.4364961      0       0.09852283      -5.6881496      0.01968504
GW      955     5       0       0.84923228      -8.3483858      0       0.52470472      -5.6330709      0.01968504
GW      956     5       0       1.50600394      -8.1448031      0       0.93517677      -5.5058661      0.01968504
GW      957     1       0       1.03805079      -0.9195276      0       1.3521063       -0.676378       0.01968504
GW      958     1       0       1.41151535      -1.132126       0       1.97667323      -0.963937       0.01968504
GW      959     1       0       1.74305079      -1.4055512      0       2.54277559      -1.3542126      0.01968504
GW      960     3       0       2.02285394      -1.7317323      0       3.03364173      -1.8356693      0.01968504
GW      961     5       0       2.11820866      -7.8317717      0       1.31781457      -5.3101969      0.01968504
GW      962     3       0       2.19155472      -4.3795669      0       3.95187008      -5.0437795      0.01968504
GW      963     3       0       3.79005906      -5.7120472      0       2.08120039      -4.5641732      0.01968504
GW      964     3       0       3.51620079      -6.3427559      0       1.95541299      -4.738622       0.01968504
GW      965     5       0       2.66773622      -7.4185039      0       1.66127913      -5.0518898      0.01968504
GW      966     3       0       3.13836614      -6.9172047      0       1.81509803      -4.9015748      0.01968504
GW      967     5       0       -1.1912402      -8.2592913      0       -0.7505713      -5.5774016      0.01968504
GW      968     5       0       -1.8277756      -7.999252       0       -1.1484063      -5.4148819      0.01968504
GW      969     5       0       -2.4103346      -7.6340551      0       -1.5125402      -5.1866142      0.01968504
GW      970     3       0       -3.9940354      -4.6968504      0       -2.3018315      -4.1833858      0.01968504
GW      971     3       0       -3.9790354      -4.0094488      0       -2.4793114      -3.5647244      0.01968504
GW      972     1       0       -2.5436417      -1.3511024      0       -1.7558862      -1.4034646      0.01968504
GW      973     1       0       -1.9770669      -0.9615354      0       -1.4239965      -1.1304331      0.01968504
GW      974     1       0       -1.3521457      -0.6747244      0       -1.0502953      -0.9182677      0.01968504
GW      976     3       0       3.43482283      -2.3940551      0       2.32797205      -2.2984252      0.01968504
GW      977     3       0       -2.921752       -7.1744488      0       -1.6785244      -5.0498819      0.01968504
GW      978     3       0       -3.3469094      -6.6340551      0       -1.8321465      -4.8993701      0.01968504
GW      979     3       0       -3.673248       -6.0288583      0       -1.9723031      -4.7362205      0.01968504
GW      980     3       0       -3.891122       -5.3766929      0       -2.0978945      -4.5616142      0.01968504
GW      981     3       0       -3.8465551      -3.3347244      0       -2.5069102      -3.1358661      0.01968504
GW      982     3       0       -3.4369488      -2.3899213      0       -2.3418705      -2.2955906      0.01968504
GW      983     1       0       -1.0235236      -0.5726378      0       -0.6873425      -0.4991732      0.01968504
GW      984     3       0       -3.6004528      -2.6927165      0       -2.4606504      -2.708622       0.01968504
GW      985     1       0       -1.3353744      -5.3085827      0       -1.5125402      -5.1866142      0.01968504
GW      986     1       0       -1.5125402      -5.1866142      0       -1.6785244      -5.0498819      0.01968504
GW      987     1       0       -1.6785244      -5.0498819      0       -1.8321465      -4.8993701      0.01968504
GW      988     1       0       -1.8321465      -4.8993701      0       -1.9723031      -4.7362205      0.01968504
GW      989     1       0       -1.9723031      -4.7362205      0       -2.0978945      -4.5616142      0.01968504
GW      990     3       0       -2.0360835      -1.7292913      0       -3.0350984      -1.8319685      0.01968504
GW      991     3       0       2.44620039      -2.7115748      0       3.59797244      -2.6970472      0.01968504
GW      992     3       0       2.4919878       -3.1388976      0       3.8432874       -3.3394094      0.01968504
GW      993     3       0       2.46387756      -3.5677165      0       3.97498031      -4.014252       0.01968504
GW      994     3       0       3.99297244      -4.529685       0       2.36273583      -3.9853937      0.01968504
GW      995     1       0       0.63368071      -0.7740157      0       0.6875  -0.5    0.01968504
GW      996     1       0       0.6875  -0.5    0       1.02360236      -0.5738583      0.01968504
GW      997     1       0       1.66127913      -5.0518898      0       1.81509803      -4.9015748      0.01968504
GW      998     1       0       1.81509803      -4.9015748      0       1.95541299      -4.738622       0.01968504
GW      999     1       0       1.95541299      -4.738622       0       2.08120039      -4.5641732      0.01968504
GW      1000    1       0       2.08120039      -4.5641732      0       2.19155472      -4.3795669      0.01968504
GW      1001    2       0       -0.6873426      0.4991732       0       -0.6873426      0       0.01968504
GW      1003    2       0       -0.6873426      0       0       -0.6873425      -0.4991732      0.01968504
GW      1002    2       0       0.6875  0.5     0       0.6875  0       0.01968504
GW      1004    2       0       0.6875  0       0       0.6875  -0.5    0.01968504
GW      1005    3       0       -0.6873426      0       0       0.6875  0       0.0113
GS      0       0       0.0254          ' All in in.
GE      0
EK
EX      0       1005    2       0       1       0
GN      -1
FR      0       38      0       0       473     6
RP 0 1 10 1510 90 0 0 20 0 0
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post #1578 of 4829 Old 02-04-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

I dont think this is what is going on under Clearstream C2 heavy plastic.

Well, I used the input of a somewhat knowledgeable user on lumenlab. I admit I never saw the inside, not even in picture. The concept seems to be starting from the 1 loop and adding 2, 3, 4, ... nested loops, to enlarge bandwidth. I would be really surprise to see weird stuff like fractal paths or whatever... but who knows...

If anyone has pictures of the construct of the clearstream c1, c2, c4 loop element, please attach.

I also checked the 1 wire loop impedance, it does come close to the 160 ohms theoretical value at operating frequency (120-130 ohms resistive), and this is a local minimum.
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post #1579 of 4829 Old 02-04-2009, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

Yep, that makes modeling a solid surface much easier and for all practical purposes is good enough using an appropriate mesh size for that frequency.

The analog cut date have been delayed till June.

If you receive a analog VHF high band channel or a UHF channel near the assigned digital channel, you still have a chance to use an analog TV for testing. You can tune an analog TV to the VHF hi or UHF ananlog channels & see how well your antenna is doing. Like if you have some ghost or multipath distortion.

At first the law was to state that on 2-17-09 they must stop broadcasting analog TV. But it did not say they must broadcast in analog until then. the law moved till June does not say the must broadcast analog until then. It only says they must stop then. So if the station owner wants they can shut off the analog on 2-17-09 if they want. Or really any time they want.
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post #1580 of 4829 Old 02-04-2009, 08:53 PM
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So if the station owner wants they can shut off the analog on 2-17-09 if they want. Or really any time they want.

Yeah. I personally think that anyone who procrastinated until now to convert will be procrastinating in June too. Its just human nature, heh.
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post #1581 of 4829 Old 02-05-2009, 01:58 AM
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I just build myself a 6 coat hanger UHF antenna. I spent 2 very relax hours and built it with quality. Take a look.

I have the 2x4 wood covered with glossy black vinyl just to match my TV (I plan to put it inside the living room).

I got a few question, do I need to make sure that 2 areas that the wires cross-over (not touching each other) not conducting?

I got that connector, the so-called "balun" from my father; he usesit to connect to TV cable to listen to FM radio with his Pioneer receiver.

It said 75-300 Ohms on it, it doesn't say it's a UHF/VHF Transformer. Am I using the right thing?
http://cid-347ebb860a7727e8.skydrive...A/DSCF2631.JPG

I am able to receive 4 HD channels with good reception presently.

Here's more photos
http://cid-347ebb860a7727e8.skydrive...A/DSCF2630.JPG
http://cid-347ebb860a7727e8.skydrive...A/DSCF2632.JPG
http://cid-347ebb860a7727e8.skydrive...A/DSCF2633.JPG
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post #1582 of 4829 Old 02-05-2009, 08:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d510d180 View Post

I also found this (you probably need to login, sorry, the picture is below).
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index...dpost&p=298078

In a nutshell, he's cutting a dual loop in an aluminium cookie plate. Outer diameter 8.0 inches (for channel 14, ~470 MHz) and inner diameter 5.0 inches (for channel 61, ~750Mhz).



But my question is about the coax joint: this guy has simply hooked the coax on each end of the two loops. I think this is suspicious. Do you think this requires a 1:1 balun? Is it that important (what are the effects of not using such balun)? Any do-it-yourself 1:1 balun specs for us?

Thanks.

I am the person responsible for the design on www.lumenlab.com.

Please note that I did use a 1:1 current balun.....which was simply a ferrite bead slipped over the coax.

The purpose of any balun is to prevent the coax shield of feed line from acting as part of the antenna (e.g. not pick up multi-path).

The 1:1 current balun design you show in post 1555 is correct as well (slipping a ferrite core over the coax is just much simpler).

Since these baluns are not transformers....they are 100% efficient.
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post #1583 of 4829 Old 02-05-2009, 08:13 AM
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When coax is directly connected to a balanced antenna, a series of choke ferrites
will minimize perturbations to the antenna pattern....they ALSO reduce pickup
of locally generated noise along the coax:
http://www.w8ji.com/common-mode_noise.htm
This is probably more of a problem at VHF than UHF....

Choice of Ferrite material must be appropriate for the operating frequency,
which would explain why they are popular for narrow band Ham radio bands
but NOT in the wide VHF & UHF TV bands. Analysis is also difficult:
http://w2du.com/r2ch21.pdf
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
http://www.vk1od.net/balun/G1-1-FT140-61/
[The latter is a current balun that wraps coax around a Ferrite core.]

Ferrite Core kits are usually available from Ham Radio enthusiasts:
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/630/747.pdf
http://www.minikits.com.au/doc/section7.pdf
Hi-VHF TV Band is closest to 144 MHz Ham band.
UHF TV Band is between 420 MHz and 920 MHz Ham bands.
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/reg...ands_color.pdf
Where you will see that it takes MULTIPLE Ferrite choke cores
on the coax to provide the desired amount of impedance.

On-line catalog and an earlier *.pdf file can be found here:
http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/catalog.htm
http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/pdf...te_Catalog.pdf

Or use one of the several quarter & half wavelength Baluns:
http://www.iw5edi.com/ham-radio/files/I0QM_BALUN.PDF


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post #1584 of 4829 Old 02-05-2009, 08:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d510d180 View Post



c) Now, if you had to do the S shape, there would be a slight change in the screws position, the balun wires would be jumping over the loop continuity naturally.



The S shape puts the 2 loops in opposition (e.g. 180 degrees out of phase) ....net
is, no gain.
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post #1585 of 4829 Old 02-05-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

Yeah. I personally think that anyone who procrastinated until now to convert will be procrastinating in June too. Its just human nature, heh.

Many people are going to be surprised to find some, if not many of their
Analogs are GONE when they wake up on 18 Feb.

In San Diego, only the CW network (from Mexico) and the PBS station
(only through March for the Pledge Drive) have indicated any willingness
to continue Analog operations....and the PBS station might have been
planning (read: BUDGETED) operations through March anyway as part
of the "Nightlight" exemption (DTV transition announcements only):
http://www.sbe36.org/index.php?optio...d=278&Itemid=1

A similar report from the SBE meeting in Sacramento was mixed....
Latest word from L.A. thread is that most major networks will continue
Analog operations....but no official announcements until the bill is SIGNED....

But it only takes the loss of ONE major network to force people into action....


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Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

I would think VHF-Hi would come in even better if mounted sideways.

TV broadcasters use horizontal polarization (a few add a bit a vertical to help with near in reception).

When stacking loops (whether circular, diamonds etc.), to capture horizontal polarized signals, the loops are oriented vertically (not side by side).

I experimented with several ways to extend the double loop to include reception of VHF high band as well and found that adding a VHF dipole, did not degrade UHF performance and significantly VHF performance.

More details on this at www.lumenlab.com
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post #1587 of 4829 Old 02-05-2009, 09:38 AM
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Many people are going to be surprised to find some, if not many of their Analogs are GONE when they wake up on 18 Feb.

Overall, I think that would be good. Many people wont do things until absolutely necessary, heh.
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post #1588 of 4829 Old 02-05-2009, 09:47 AM
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I am the person responsible for the design on www.lumenlab.com.

Your pictures more closely resemble my last NEC model above. What is the distance between the two loops in your picture ? And the bake sheet to driven element distance ? The NEC model shows low SWR at 300ohm impedance in the UHF range, so a common 4:1 balun would be appropriate.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

Your pictures more closely resemble my NEC model above. What is the distance between the two loops in your picture ? The NEC model shows low SWR at 300ohm impedance in the UHF range, so a common 4:1 balun would be appropriate.

The spacing between the junctions is 1 1/4".

I have built a dozen or so DTV antennas over the last 2 years (LPDAs, co-linear arrays, stacked arrays etc.) and this is one of the best so far. Indoors, can receive all the DTV stations in the Boston/Manchester NH area (uo to 50 miles distant).

Have you looked at the works of L.B. Cebik (www.cebik.com)?

His studies show the impedance of a single 1 wave length circular loop to be 140 ohms and a single diamond square to be 125 ohms.

He found the gain of a single diamond loop to be 4.22 dBi and between 8.5 - 9.5 dBi with a coplanar reflector (depending on the reflector size and spacing from the loop).

He found the gain of a double diamond loop to be 6.2 dBi and between 10.17 - 11.13 dBi with a coplanar reflector (depending on the reflector size and spacing from the loop).

The impedance for the double diamond was 50.2 + 0.1 (R+/-jX ohms) and only a tad lower with a reflector.

This is why I opted to use a 1:1 current balun with 75 ohm coax.

Loops of made of wire only have a bandwidth of 10% (where SWR is less than 2:1).

My thinking was that the semi-solid circular double loop should provide just a tad more gain over other shapes (because for a given circumference, the circle has more capture area than any other shape) and semi-solid would provide more band width (as a delta fan does compared to a dipole).
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post #1590 of 4829 Old 02-05-2009, 10:58 AM
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Well, I have spent the last several days playing with various antenna sizes, and versions of the Mclapp 4-bay antenna. I also spent a great deal of time experimenting with 2 SBGH's and a DBGH. We had a few warm days where I was actually able to get up on the roof to swap them around, compare them and log results. Here are some of the results :

I noticed no measurable difference on any of the channels in signal strength when forming comparisons of 9" x 8.5" to 9-1/2" x 9" Mclapp antennas. These were nearly equal. I did, however, notice some serious performance dips in the smaller Mclapps, which showed the larger ones with greater spacing and longer whiskers to outperform the "YouTube" 7" x 5-3/4" versions, and 8.5" x 8" models, leading me to believe the longer whiskers and greater spacing lend themselves to better bandwidth. Regarding the 9" x 8.5" comparison to the 9-1/2" x 9": They both seemed to perform equally in nearly all channels, with only slight, minor variances in signal strength on the convertor, for whatever that's worth, if it's even an accurate measuring device. Using the box as a guage, these two sizes appeared very close.

My SBGH and DBGH, contrary to much contraversy with reference to VHF performance, had no problems whatsoever in receiving the VHF hi channels I surmised it might have trouble with, although the Mclapps performed only slightly better in this respect. The VHF channels I am receiving are virtual 22 WYOU and virtual 28 WBRE (actual 13 and 11 respectively) For what it's worth, according to the GH webpage, the original antenna was patented and marketed as a UHF/VHF antenna. They also seem somewhat, only slightly superior to most of the Mclapp's I've built in just the very upper 40's uhf range, for whatever reasons, and otherwise almost identically equal to the whisker antenna in most other respects except VHF high. I have 2 channels in the upper 40's range which are among my weakest, so the GH's seem to make sense. I did, however feel that the Mclapps may have had a very slight edge in the VHF hi channels, and perhaps even a minimal advantage in the lower to mid UHF channels, based on the numbers I got on my convertor box, as they displayed significantly higher signal strengths.

Either way, my VHF channels are the strongest of my local market, so these were of least concern with either antenna. If I were in a market area with weak VHF high channels, I might otherwise opt for the Mclapps, forgoing the GH's altogether. I really liked the way both of these antenna designs performed by comparison to any commercial antennas I've been comparing them to, including a "Radio shack's best" corner reflector yagi on a rotator which is mounted even higher. (Not a fair fight for signal, but irregardless, did not keep up with either the GH's or Mclapps)

I never did get a chance to get the DBGH up in the air yet, as I did the other SBGH's and the various Mclapps, but I did notice how it did quite well on the ground outside, by comparison to is single-bay counterparts, and the 4-bay Mclapps. It seemed to have displayed bigger numbers when compared with other antennas (SBGH's and 4-bays) on the ground. These were the results I was looking for. I am confident and optimistic that the additional gain to be had by stacking a GH or Mclapp to form a DBGH or 8-bay would most definitely help make up for the poor location if raised to similiar heights as thier single bay or 4-bay cousins, and likely help improve overall reception. My next objective is to build an 8-bay Mclapp, get both it and the DBGH up high and form new tests and comparisons. I don't know when this might happen, as weather has been exceptionally snowy and cold, with very few, occasional breaks with mild warmups. My next opportunity to get these suckers in the air, you can bet I will! I am optimistic, based on my on the ground comparison results with SBGH's vs. DBGH's, that I would be very happy with the DBGH once mounted on high, as well as an 8-bay Mclapp, (not yet built) if I could get them up there where the smaller SB and 4-bays are/have been.

All of these tests, I attempted to perform, I conducted in a way as to NOT compare them as apples to orangatangs. As stated earlier in postings, all antennas were constructed with 8 guage copper. All utilize brass hardware fasteners, with most constructed of ordinary 1/2" PVC pipe, and only a small hanful of models built on CCA treaded lumber using plexiglass insulators. I built all the PVC antennas with the same length masts, securing them all at identical heights and locations. All antennas were sealed only at contact points (bolt/washer areas where whiskers contact phase lines, and secure points, in the case of GH's) with hot glue, and then polyurethane silicone sealant, paying close, careful attention not to coat any whiskers, phase lines or any part of the GH lines except where they were secured to the PVC pipe. In keeping with consistency, I tested them all in the same fair weather conditions, on the same day, on the same source TV and convertor box, knowing full well that they would likely yield different results with variances in weather conditions.

I noticed no measurable differences in Mclapp antennas whether built on CCA 1" x 4" s with plexiglass insulating washer spacers or PVC equivalents. I, too am superstitious, as well, regarding what some may consider nominal differences with coated/painted copper, which is why I chose not to coat any parts other than the critical hardware areas, which over time, with corrosion and age, might deteriorate antenna perfomance, by impeding and comprimising the design connectivity. All antennas are reflectorless, meeting my local requirements, having channels in three different directions, even though the majority of them are in one of the three directions. Either way, I am convinced that either of the two different designs would perform nearly equally well, overall, and in my case the real issue is raising the antenna higher, moreso than GH vs. Mclapp. I think if I could get either one higher up in the air I would do excellently with either. Furthermore, I am also convinced that "doubling" these up and "stacking" them into 8-bays and double-bays also has much promise.

My results may or may not reflect what others may come to expect.- Especially those of others in less hilly terrain, or other flat lands areas, as I am in an area with very close transmitters, but in a deep valley, surrounded by many large mountains. I do not know if my criteria was complete enough to form solid conclusions, but I did attempt to make fair comparisons, based on common sense, but without any elaborate test equipment.

I hope these findings from my own field testing experiences are able to help aid in the research and development in modeling, or help those here in any way when comparing computer modeling and projections to actual results.

Best Regards,
Eric
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