Any tuner cards that have hardware encoders cabable of different compression/quality? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
bengance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi, thanks for looking at this thread.

I recently bought a Hauppauge 1600 PCI Analog/Digital tuner. So far my experience has been very good. After purchasing a Terk unamplified antenna I've been getting all the digital channels no prob and have been using Beyond TV 4.6's 21 day trial. Working very nicely. (Could be that I live 0.5 mi from all the towers in Portland!)

My main problem is that digital recordings eat up my harddrive fast. I kind of don't understand why 2 hours of hauppauge MPEG2 encoded streams take up 4x the space of a 2 hr DVD.

Does anyone know whether any other tuner cards over different hardware encoding settings or codecs? I seem to remember an Mp4 encoder but maybe that was for analog. Beyond TV has showsqueeze but it seems to take forever and I'd rather just compress it at the start.

My only requirement is the tuner card must receive ATSC signals (an included remote is a bonus). I don't need QAM or analog at all.

Thanks for any recommendations!
bengance is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 12:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ftaok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Media, PA (SE Pennsylvania - Philly Area)
Posts: 1,329
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengance View Post

Hi, thanks for looking at this thread.

I recently bought a Hauppauge 1600 PCI Analog/Digital tuner. So far my experience has been very good. After purchasing a Terk unamplified antenna I've been getting all the digital channels no prob and have been using Beyond TV 4.6's 21 day trial. Working very nicely. (Could be that I live 0.5 mi from all the towers in Portland!)

My main problem is that digital recordings eat up my harddrive fast. I kind of don't understand why 2 hours of hauppauge MPEG2 encoded streams take up 4x the space of a 2 hr DVD.

Does anyone know whether any other tuner cards over different hardware encoding settings or codecs? I seem to remember an Mp4 encoder but maybe that was for analog. Beyond TV has showsqueeze but it seems to take forever and I'd rather just compress it at the start.

My only requirement is the tuner card must receive ATSC signals (an included remote is a bonus). I don't need QAM or analog at all.

Thanks for any recommendations!

I'm not aware of any tuner card doing on-the-fly encoding of HD material. They all pretty much just save the MPEG stream.

As for file size, the reason that HD files are much larger than DVD files is the overally bit rate. DVDs are limited to 9Mbps while HD broadcasts can go up to 19.2 Mbps. That's about twice the information at the top limit. Most DVDs aren't encoded at 9Mbps. But then again, most HD broadcasts are at 19.2 Mpbs either.

ft
ftaok is offline  
post #3 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 12:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
walford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 16,789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I am not aware of any ATSC tuner card that will decode the already encoded incoming video and recode it at another bit rate or at a lower resolution. It would not make sense becasue you would lose all of the benefit of getting High Resolution Picture Quality.
The hardware encoder on the card is strictly for use of the analog tuner or of the S-Video input to the card.
walford is offline  
post #4 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 01:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mjones73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: North East, MD
Posts: 7,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"I kind of don't understand why 2 hours of hauppauge MPEG2 encoded streams take up 4x the space of a 2 hr DVD. "

Because your capturing HD resolutions vs 480i resolutions that DVDs offer. If you are capturing any SD programs, use the SD version of the channel to save space, if your recording SD on an HD channel, it's upconverted and will take up more space.

Matt
Please don't PM me with technical questions that should be posted in the forum.
mjones73 is offline  
post #5 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 03:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
walford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 16,789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Just to amplify mjones73 comments. DVDs use 720x480i resolution which means 340K pixels per frame and refreshes at the rate of 30 frames per second.
1080i HD is 1920x1080i or 2.1 Megapixels per frame and also refreshes at the rate of 30 frames per second.
Therfore 1080i requires 4x times as much diskspace to store a program as to store a DVD.
720p takes only slightly less space since it refreshes at the rate of 60 frames per second.
walford is offline  
post #6 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 04:17 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bfdtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Luminance samples per second

Code:
Film sourced (24p movies and episodic series)

  DirecTV SD              5,529,600
  Comcast SD              6,842,880
  480p24                  8,294,400 (DVD)
  720p24                 22,118,400
  DirecTV "HDTV Lite"    33,177,600
  1080p24                49,766,400

Video sourced (60i/30p sports, concerts, live broadcasts)

  DirecTV SD              6,912,000
  Comcast SD              7,603,200
  480i60                 10,368,000 (DVD)
  DirecTV "HDTV Lite"    41,472,000
  720p60                 55,296,000
  1080i60                62,208,000
  1080p60               124,416,000 (future cable channels)
bfdtv is offline  
post #7 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 04:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 6,979
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Pixels per second

Code:
Film-sourced (movies and series / episodic)

  480p24                  8,294,400 (DVD)
  720p24                 22,118,400
  DirecTV "HDTV Lite"    33,177,600
  1080p24                49,766,400

Video (sports, concerts, live broadcasts)

  480i60                 10,368,000 (D1 video)
  DirecTV "HDTV Lite"    41,472,000
  720p60                 55,296,000
  1080i60                62,208,000
  1080p60               124,512,000 (future cable channels)

Though "pixel" is a misleading concept in video - as only luma samples are broadcast at the full sampling rate, with the chroma samples broadcast at a reduced horizontal (and usually also vertical) resolution. This can be simplified to a reduction to 12 bits per pixel from the 24 bits often assumed - but in spatial terms to talk of a broadcast video signal being made of "pixels" implies that each "pixel" is independent of all the others - when in chroma (and thus RGB) terms they aren't.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #8 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 04:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 6,979
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengance View Post

Hi, thanks for looking at this thread.

I recently bought a Hauppauge 1600 PCI Analog/Digital tuner. So far my experience has been very good. After purchasing a Terk unamplified antenna I've been getting all the digital channels no prob and have been using Beyond TV 4.6's 21 day trial. Working very nicely. (Could be that I live 0.5 mi from all the towers in Portland!)

My main problem is that digital recordings eat up my harddrive fast. I kind of don't understand why 2 hours of hauppauge MPEG2 encoded streams take up 4x the space of a 2 hr DVD.

Does anyone know whether any other tuner cards over different hardware encoding settings or codecs? I seem to remember an Mp4 encoder but maybe that was for analog. Beyond TV has showsqueeze but it seems to take forever and I'd rather just compress it at the start.

My only requirement is the tuner card must receive ATSC signals (an included remote is a bonus). I don't need QAM or analog at all.

Thanks for any recommendations!

As others have mentioned HD video takes up more space than DVD video because it is higher resolution and higher quality.

The reason digital TV receiver cards are so low cost is that they don't actually have to do anything much to work - they just tune the digital signal, demodulate it, and pass the received digital data stream to the PC. The PC itself then usually decodes the HD MPEG2 video in the data to display a picture. The card itself doesn't have to have any MPEG2 video decoding or encoding hardware on-board - it is receiving MPEG2 already compressed for transmission by the broadcaster (and usually compressed with a pretty good encoder - certainly one costing a lot more than a PC card!)

The digital video card itself just passes on the video exactly as broadcast (meaning recordings are identical in quality to the original received broadcast) - and thus the broadcaster dictates the data rate (and thus the hard drive space) used for each station.

This is in direct contrast to the MPEG2 encoders often found on analogue capture cards - which take an analogue TV signal, digitise it and then compress it, with the compression (and thus data rate/disc space) chosen by the end user, with the obvious quality trade-offs.

If similar functionality were required with a digital TV Card it would need for the card to have a hardware MPEG2 decoder, possibly a scaler (to reduce the resolution) and an MPEG2 encoder, or for the PC to be running software that performed a similar function. Doing it on the TV card would be much more expensive, and reduce picture quality. Doing it on the PC in real time would need a reasonably powerful PC - though there is nothing to stop you doing this to recordings after they have been made using a Divx or Windows Media re-compressor, or something like TMPGEnc to convert to DVD standard def format.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #9 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 04:41 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bfdtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I realize putting all those sources in one table is really mixing apples and oranges. If you can better format that information, please do so.
bfdtv is offline  
post #10 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 04:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 6,979
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

I realize putting all those sources in one table is really mixing apples and oranges. If you can better format that information, please do so.

I'd just replace "pixels per second" with "unique luminance samples per second".

(The 24p stuff is slightly confusing - because of the repeated frames/fields present, even in a baseband 60i or 60p signal carrying 24p material)
sneals2000 is offline  
post #11 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
bengance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wow. Thanks for the posts. I should have clarified that the non-HD recordings are stil taking up a lot of space. 1080 and 720 stuff would no doubt take more space than 480i. When I get home all compare file sizes for some of the different recordings to see what SD is recorded at.

Thanks for the replies. Anyone want to comment on PVR software that will recode or compress files? I don't have an HD tv so I don't need full 1080i. I got the tuner more for the clear reception vs analog OTA.
bengance is offline  
post #12 of 17 Old 04-16-2007, 05:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mjones73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: North East, MD
Posts: 7,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
As I said in my other post, when recording SD, use an SD version of the channel, if you record SD on the HD version of a channel, it's usually upconverted to HD resolutions and will take up more space. That is why non-HD recordings are taking up so much space on you.

Matt
Please don't PM me with technical questions that should be posted in the forum.
mjones73 is offline  
post #13 of 17 Old 04-18-2007, 09:16 PM
Member
 
squee0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
anyone know of any PCI HD Tuner cards that have a dual tuner that support QAM as well as the analog channels?

Thanks & have a wonderful day.
squee0 is offline  
post #14 of 17 Old 04-19-2007, 03:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sneals2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 6,979
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjones73 View Post

As I said in my other post, when recording SD, use an SD version of the channel, if you record SD on the HD version of a channel, it's usually upconverted to HD resolutions and will take up more space. That is why non-HD recordings are taking up so much space on you.

Yes - SD recordings made from the HD channels will be recorded in 1080i/720p - as the HD channels broadcast 480i material upconverted to 1080i/720p.

However if you record the SD analogue NTSC broadcasts these will be hardware compressed by your capture card - and you may be able to chose the compression quality (I've never used MCE for analogue capture - and I'm not sure if it is a user option or registry hack to alter the recording quality) However SD shows shot in digital component should look a lot better quality via the HD route than the SD NTSC analogue broadcast route - and you may notice a drop on some shows if you record the SD analogue broadcast.
sneals2000 is offline  
post #15 of 17 Old 04-19-2007, 06:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
walford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 16,789
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
The MCE TV set up for analog tuners offers you 4 quality levels for recording and even "Best" is not that good. Live TV in MCE always uses Best.
walford is offline  
post #16 of 17 Old 04-19-2007, 05:11 PM
Newbie
 
breathe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was considering buying that Haup 1600 today. But if recordings take up so much diskspace, is there a utility to convert them? say 1 hour of HDTV to dvd? Would Premiere Pro 2 do that?
breathe is offline  
post #17 of 17 Old 04-19-2007, 08:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mjones73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: North East, MD
Posts: 7,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Wouldn't be HD anymore if you converted it to DVD, DVD's are 480i.

Matt
Please don't PM me with technical questions that should be posted in the forum.
mjones73 is offline  
Reply HDTV Technical

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off