MSI 7411 Motherboard Sneak Peek (share your thoughts!) - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 3490 Old 09-23-2008, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Glad to help and looking forward to a review thread on your experience.

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post #272 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 03:09 AM
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Hi guys, im over in the UK and have my Media Live DIVA 5.1 on order.

Hopefully it wont take too long as im itching to crack on with my new HTPC and i can tell all the guys that said it couldn't be done "I told you so"
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post #273 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 11:11 AM
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I have a couple of questions since this whole everything-in-a-pc this is new to me so these might be stupid questions. But I was wondering if by plugging something into the component part of this motherboard, like a Wii, will I then be able to run the video through the HDMI port to the projector? I like the idea of not needing a receiver for audio but I love that the receiver makes everything all nice and tidy and sends everything I have through one HDMI cable.

Secondly, if I plug my current speakers to the back of the add on card, I will be able to get DTS Master and Dolby TrueHD, correct?
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post #274 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucifarius View Post

I have a couple of questions since this whole everything-in-a-pc this is new to me so these might be stupid questions. But I was wondering if by plugging something into the component part of this motherboard, like a Wii, will I then be able to run the video through the HDMI port to the projector? I like the idea of not needing a receiver for audio but I love that the receiver makes everything all nice and tidy and sends everything I have through one HDMI cable.

It has component out, not in, so you would not be able to do what you want.

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Originally Posted by lucifarius View Post

Secondly, if I plug my current speakers to the back of the add on card, I will be able to get DTS Master and Dolby TrueHD, correct?

With the 5.1 version, yes. It will be downsampled until the software players support the protected audio path though.
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post #275 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 12:43 PM
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Ok, thank you very much, Vladd.
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post #276 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

It has component out, not in, so you would not be able to do what you want.

With the 5.1 version, yes. It will be downsampled until the software players support the protected audio path though.

First point is correct, this is component out, not in and therefore would not support the functionality requestd.

2nd point. Not necessarily true. HD Audio is PAP and downsampling happens on other buses, but not the HD Audio bus.

The DAE 3 on this board is attached to the HD Audio bus and therefore not downsampled. The signal remains in digital format until it hits the speaker wire. Therefore, the signal should not be downsampled at all.

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post #277 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 06:15 PM
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I thought that the software players downsampled regardless of that. Have you confirmed that they don't downsample?
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post #278 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I think some of them do, but I am not sure all of them do. I will investigate this further to confirm.

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post #279 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 08:20 PM
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I'm pretty sure PDVD does. I'm not sure about ArcSoft. The others, I have no idea. I do know that the ArcSoft decoders do not downsample when used in another app like GraphEdit. I've confirmed this with an onboard RealTek 889 HD audio chip. I will do some testing when I get my board. No HDMI receiver so I won't be able to test audio on that.
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post #280 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I will talk with Arcsoft in the morning, I have several things to talk about with them anyway. I will see what I can find out on Cyberlink and intervideo.

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post #281 of 3490 Old 09-24-2008, 11:56 PM
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One of those things wouldn't happen to be the ability to preserve the audio decoder settings would it?

Just kidding.
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post #282 of 3490 Old 09-25-2008, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I'm pretty sure PDVD does. I'm not sure about ArcSoft. The others, I have no idea. I do know that the ArcSoft decoders do not downsample when used in another app like GraphEdit. I've confirmed this with an onboard RealTek 889 HD audio chip. I will do some testing when I get my board. No HDMI receiver so I won't be able to test audio on that.

According to Cyberink, Power DVD down samples everything even unprotected content. Cyberlink is apparently aware of this bug in their product.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/10...ng_explained/1
Quote:
We talked to Cyberlink PowerDVD Product Manager, Louis Chen, to get to the bottom of it.

When asked why PowerDVD downsamples HD audio from both Blu-ray and HD DVD discs to 48KHz / 16-bit, Chen responded by saying that "digital output without protection is not possible due to AACS requirement. Digital and analogue output with protection (HDMI) is also not possible due to lack of an internal secure audio path in a Windows PC.

"We are currently working with Realtek to support their proprietary interface for encryption of audio bus. Once completed, we will not longer need to downsample the audio. This will be provided for free to end-user for upgrade."

This didn't really clear up the downsampling situation though because, as far as we're aware all audio, regardless of encryption, is downsampled. We therefore pressed Chen to clear up the speculation. "I think this is a mistake," he said, "we never intended to pass this message. I think there might be some bug in our program that downsamples everything. That is not our intent. We only need to down-sample premium content (AACS, CPRM, etc)."

A definitive answer from Arcsoft will be interesting to hear...
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post #283 of 3490 Old 09-25-2008, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java Jack View Post

I am by no means an expert on Vista's audio architecture, however my exprience and understanding is that Vista does not map audio/video inputs to the output paths. Instead, it tries to record the incoming stream as an audio file which can then be played back. I believe MSI may be working on an application that would allow you to connect up external audio sources and map them to the amplified output. Not sure how this is coming.

Hi Java Jack

I'm still not really sure I understand this. I have just received my motherboard along with the 5 channel amplifier (was up to 3am last night assembling my new HTPC - pics to follow : ) ). I'd really like to be able to channel my PS3 audio through the HTPC and then I can entirely ditch my reciever. Is this possible, if so how do I go about it? You mentioned that Vista tries to record the input as a stream which can then be played back but does that mean it can work in real time? You also mentioned that MSI might produce something to make this work better - do you have any more info on this?

Worst case scenario might be having to place a switch box to allow me to run both amps to the same speakers but I'm not too keen on the idea of having to get off my lazy @rse and flick a switch.
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post #284 of 3490 Old 09-25-2008, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feederz View Post

I'd really like to be able to channel my PS3 audio through the HTPC and then I can entirely ditch my reciever. Is this possible, if so how do I go about it? You mentioned that Vista tries to record the input as a stream which can then be played back but does that mean it can work in real time?

I had a similar question and Jack was kind enough to answer. As I understand his answer, you can use your PS3's optical audio out, connect it to the 7411's optical audio in, and setup a SPDIF passthrough.

I'm no expert, so take this with a grain of salt!
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post #285 of 3490 Old 09-25-2008, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feederz View Post

Hi Java Jack

I'm still not really sure I understand this. I have just received my motherboard along with the 5 channel amplifier (was up to 3am last night assembling my new HTPC - pics to follow : ) ). I'd really like to be able to channel my PS3 audio through the HTPC and then I can entirely ditch my reciever. Is this possible, if so how do I go about it? You mentioned that Vista tries to record the input as a stream which can then be played back but does that mean it can work in real time? You also mentioned that MSI might produce something to make this work better - do you have any more info on this?

Worst case scenario might be having to place a switch box to allow me to run both amps to the same speakers but I'm not too keen on the idea of having to get off my lazy @rse and flick a switch.

So the problem is that the OS does not let you pass through audio inputs and route them directly to the outputs. It just wants to capture that audio stream for playback.

There is a plug in that will take signals coming into the line in inputs and allow you to route them back out to the audio out path. It should work, though I have not had a chance to test it yet on the 7411 board. I believe MSI has the plug in, but don't know when they will make that available.

I will see what I can find out from MSI.

Regards,
Java

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post #286 of 3490 Old 09-25-2008, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedTheNanite View Post

According to Cyberink, Power DVD down samples everything even unprotected content. Cyberlink is apparently aware of this bug in their product.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/10...ng_explained/1


A definitive answer from Arcsoft will be interesting to hear...

I cannot speak for any of the codec vendors so I could not give a difinitive answer.

As you are probably aware, the issue here is that the AACS license requires vendors to downsample HD audio if not on a protected audio path. This applies to PCIe, PCI, etc. Studios don't want the true HD content to be copied by a UAB (User Accessible Bus). The HD Audio bus is not user accessible and the DAE-3 chip sits on the HD Audio bus and then uses a proprietary signal path to manage the audio in digital form before passing out the analog 7.1 card or amplifiying and then pushing out to the speakers.

The cards do plug into a x1 PCIe slot, but that is only for power. There are no audio signals on those pins.

By the AACS definition, this is not a UAB and therefore, should not be getting downsampled content.

Since most plug in cards sit on a PCIe and pass audio over it, the data must be downsampled (PCIe is a UAB) or a PAP must be ensured before it can get access to full bit rate HD audio.

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post #287 of 3490 Old 09-25-2008, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java Jack View Post

As you are probably aware, the issue here is that the AACS license requires vendors to downsample HD audio if not on a protected audio path.

Therein lies the problem. The vendors downsample the audio regardless of whether AACS is present or not. I have tested ArcSoft since my last post and can confirm that their player does downsample. As I mentioned, I can play the same file by creating my own filtergraph with the ArcSoft decoders and the audio is not downsampled so it is some logic in the player that is doing this, not the decoders themselves. Of course, this is tested without the MSI board but on a board using the built in 889 HD Audio. I will retest on the MSI Diva once I get it. It may be Monday before I can though (entered the wrong credit card number when ordering the CPU/RAM).
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post #288 of 3490 Old 09-26-2008, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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What board are you testing on? This may be a misperception of the audio architecture by the codec vendors and therefore, to avoid breaking the license, they downsample eveyrthing.

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post #289 of 3490 Old 09-26-2008, 11:01 AM
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I am currently using a Biostar 7050PV board but it is being reported with the 8200 and 780G series boards as well. My testing was done with the John Mayer BD disc.

Separate note: It looks like I will need to wait until Monday to test the MSI board. UPS had a railway car break down so my shipment is delayed.
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post #290 of 3490 Old 09-26-2008, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Tough break on the delay.

Some quick testing on the Arcsoft player and DTS Blu Ray test disc is showing content being played back at full bit rate. It does not appear to downsample the DTS-Master HD audio content. I will check this further with some off the shelf blu ray movies this weekend and let you know what I find out.

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post #291 of 3490 Old 09-26-2008, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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OK...rented Forbidden Kingdom and Nim's Island in Blu Ray both with DTS-HD Master audio.

Played them back via Arcsoft TMT both from the DT and Inside MCE. Both cases appear not to downsample the audio tracks.

With the Info reporting turned on, audio is reported as playing back as DTS-HD Master.

This is on the 7411 with the 5.1 amplifier card directly connected to the speakers. As the previews are running, the audio bit rates change to various AC-3 Bitrates and when the movie started, the audio reported back DTS-Master.

I will try this on the cyberlink player next week to see what it comes back with.

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post #292 of 3490 Old 09-26-2008, 08:48 PM
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I believe those titles are 16-bit/48kHz. The downrez is to 16-bit/48kHz in which case those titles would not be affected. Do you have a 24-bit/96kHz title you can try (I use John Mayer). You can find some listed at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760714

TrondheimSolistene: Divertimenti would be the ultimate test disc but it's not available in the US.
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post #293 of 3490 Old 09-26-2008, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Nim's Island is listed on the 24bit 48Khz lossless list. Forbidden Kingdom is not on the list at the moment.

Based upon the AACS requirements, the title should be downsampled to 16 bit, 48Khz. It does not appear that it is happening. I should have seen the same thing on the DTS Test disc as well, but it did not appear to do it there, either.

The HD Audio bus should not see anything downsampled, it is only if it leaves the HD audio bus and is handed over to an external UAB that it should get downsampled unless there is encryption and PAP.

I will see what I can do to get my hands on a higher rez title over the weekend and give it a try as well just to make sure.

Based upon my discussions with D2Audio, we should meet the requirements of AACS for True HD and DTS-Master playback.

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post #294 of 3490 Old 09-26-2008, 10:25 PM
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Sounds good. As soon as I get my board and get it set up, I'll run some tests myself. It's not a big issue for me but it seems to be a stickler for a lot of people on this forum.
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post #295 of 3490 Old 09-26-2008, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I should probably also try one of these on a traditional mobo going out SPDIF or something and see if it gets downsampled, just to make sure that TMT is reporting the correct audio bitrate.

Perhaps I will slap a BD in my PC and load arcsoft there and see what happens.

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post #296 of 3490 Old 09-27-2008, 09:52 AM
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First and foremost people tell me how it SOUNDS!
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post #297 of 3490 Old 09-27-2008, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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My opinion my be somewhat slanted on this, but it sounds fantastic. Of course, I helped spec out and consulted with MSI on the design. But I am very proud of what we came up with on this one.


It will easily sound every bit as good as mainstream consumer amps in the $1200 range.

No distortion, no hiss, crack, pops (nor snap, crackle pops, either for those rice crispy fans out there).

Excellent, warm, rich sounds with great bass and clean highs. Well worth the$200 or so for the board+Amp card.

Now, believe it or not I have not really tried the pre amp version so I can't comment on that card's performance. But the amp card sounds great IMO.

I think people will be genuinely surprised when they get it up and running.

For a more unbiased opinion, it might be good to hear from Barry and Feederz on the amp card and vladd on the pre amp card. I think they each either have on order or already in house these units. They might be able to share more insight as I just may be a tad too close to it.

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post #298 of 3490 Old 09-27-2008, 03:29 PM
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Well I have installed my board but at the moment I'm having an issue with the sound output. In fact I can't get any sound out of the board or amplifier at all apart from the headphone socket on the front of my case. I'm sure I am missing something obvious but I have tried everything I can think of so far.

I have started a link about my build which can be seen here...

http://www.obct.co.uk/htpc.htm

If anybody know where I'm going wrong please help Should there be a piece of software to install specifically for the add-in card? So far I have just installed the Realtek audio software that was on the CD supplied with the board but it's not clear to me that this includes the driver for the amplifier stage?

I hope to update soon with my impressions of the sound.
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post #299 of 3490 Old 09-27-2008, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry I did not see this sooner, been busy most of the evening.

The Amp card just uses the inbox MS UAA audio drivers. No need to load any special drivers for it.

First, check to make sure you have the 4 pin molex plugged into the amp card. Also make sure that you have firmly plugged in the speaker block to the amp card and that you have good connections and no shorts on the speaker wires.

Assuming all that is good which looks to be the case from the write up, the likely issue is you have not selected the D2 Audio codec as the default playback device.

Right click on the speaker icon in the system tray and select payback devices. You may need to try a couple of the different playback devices and set them as default playback.

You will probably see 3 or 4 different codecs installed (HDMI, SPDIF, and 2 sets of speaker outputs). One speaker output is the realtek, the other is the D2Audio codec. I am guessing you probably have the realtek codec as the playback device and you need the amp card set as default.

As mentioned, there are probably 2 different sets of speaker outputs listed with one being the realtek, the other is the amp card (though it is not deliniated as amp).

Set this as your default playback device. Then go to configure device and set up the speakers based upon how many you have (5 + sub) and test speaker outputs. If you are hearing sounds, then go to the properities window and select enhancements. Set Bass Enhancement, Speaker Fill, and Loudness Equalization. Then go to the advanced tab and set your default format. Any of the studio quality settings should be fine.

This should get you going. If you have done all that and it still does not work, post here and I will see what else I can think of, but I expect this should take care of it.

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post #300 of 3490 Old 09-28-2008, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Feederz, just wanted to see if you tried my suggestions above and got your amp card working yet.

Let us know how it is going.

Regards.
Java

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