720p/1080p mkv quality vs. blu-ray quality - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 108 Old 12-29-2013, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by coffeeman101 View Post

so basically everyone will agree, you can't tell the difference between a 720 rip and a 1080 rip of the highest quality download of the same movie etc etc?

if no one can tell the difference, and certain posters are using 80" lcd's 60" plasmas, 120" 1080 front end projectors, etc etc

No we would not agree. Some movies (the actual movie itself) are more detailed than others some are soft to begin with and don't have fine detail that requires 1080p to reproduce, some do. It's not as simple as just "all you need is 720p". I mean heck, I'm quite looking forward to 4K.
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if someone is comparing the same 720/1080 rip, on his 50" plasma to his 120" projector and not seeing any difference..
then why on earth are we downloading 1080 rips which are like 10-30gigs in size??
when we can just get the 720 version and save space.

Good question, why are we discussing illegal downloads on AVS, I means it's against the forum TOS.

But beyond that, making any judgements based on an illegal download created by who-knows-who on the internet is an fundamentally flawed process. You don't know anything about the source quality, the encoding quality, settings, so you have no scientific basis for knowing if there even should be a difference between the 1080p and 720p movies you download.

If you really want to test whether it's possible to see the difference between 720p and 1080p, then what you need to do is get a reference Blu-ray, (for example see this list http://www.avsforum.com/t/858316/the-new-pq-tier-thread-for-blu-ray-discussion), and then compare it with the output of your player (PC or BD player) set to 1080p and 720p. And be sure you're seating distance is appropriate: http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/

If you want to know if you should rip the Blu-rays you buy without recompressing them, or if you should recompress them to 720p (or something else) then you should try it for yourself with your display, your eyes and your seating distance/environment. Nobody else is going to be able to tell you where the line is for the limit of what you can see on your system.

I advise not recompressing anything since you don't know what your system will consist of in the future.
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Originally Posted by coffeeman101 View Post

what would you say is the best size file to download then, I mean there are so many different sizes out there 6gig-8 gig 12 gig, 22 gig, 32gig
I mean how much difference in quality are we talking with a great 8gig rip to a 32 gig rip?

I don't know where you're downloading that you get those options, Vudu doesn't give you such options, nor does Amazon, or any other legal source that I'm aware of. The best quality is never achieved by illegal downloads, it's by ripping the Blu-ray with no recompression.

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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

there are a lot of reasons a file could be smaller. the #1 reason is that all bluray movies are encoded at 16x9. even if that's not the aspect ratio of the movie they encode the blank black space. so Lawrence of Arabia has the black letter box bars hardcoded and Its a Wonderful Life has the side pillar bars hard coded. the image always has 2,073,600 pixels on a bluray disc.

FWIW, the bars are inconsequential to the final file size (encoders are smart). But you're right there are a lot of reasons files can be different sizes, you can tell the encoder to compress any resolution to just about any bitrate. You could tell the encoder to encode a Blu-ray to 1080p and a final size of 1GB. It would look like crap, but you could do it.
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i cant tell you what looks good. i ripped my dvds to xvid avi files that turned out to be 1.5gb or so 10 years ago when hard drives really were expensive. they looked great on a 24" sd tv. they looked pretty good on my first hdtv (low end 37" 768p lcd set). they looked like garbage and needed to be redone when I bought a larger 1080p plasma. all the flaws were exposed. i remuxed all of them to wtv files without compressing. and dozens of those have been replaced by blurays and hd-dvds.

Yup, exactly, one of the best reasons I say not to recompress, do you really want to rerip again in the future? What if you get a much larger 4K TV in the future (all TVs will be 4K before too long, and sizes always get bigger) your "awesome" 720p rips today may look like crap on your equipment tomorrow.
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post #92 of 108 Old 12-29-2013, 10:36 AM
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De-interlacing and rendering will effect your PQ especially when going up in resolution to 1080p

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post #93 of 108 Old 12-29-2013, 11:43 AM
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thanks for clarifying the boxing stranger. I assumed it took up more space than it actually does.

I post in the Turner Classic Movies thread often about a related problem - they actually underscan the image (at least in my area on Comcast). So im left with a small black border all the way around the screen. If im going to keep a movie I clip off the commercials before and after the film and re-encode to remove the windowboxing. If its black and white I honestly have a tough time telling a difference between 1080 and 720 (nothing on there is actually hd - its all upconverted anyway). So I convert from mpeg2 to h264 and take it to 960x720p24 (for academy ratio films)

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post #94 of 108 Old 12-29-2013, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

thanks for clarifying the boxing stranger. I assumed it took up more space than it actually does.

If you're curious, bring up a bitrate display on your media player and watch how low it gets during blackouts, it's not zero, but it's much, much lower than during anything with detail. Actually the biggest eater of bitrate/data is not even detail, it's motion. Motion is where you'll see codecs/encodings fall apart if they aren't given enough bits.

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post #95 of 108 Old 12-29-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

thanks for clarifying the boxing stranger. I assumed it took up more space than it actually does.

If you're curious, bring up a bitrate display on your media player and watch how low it gets during blackouts, it's not zero, but it's much, much lower than during anything with detail. Actually the biggest eater of bitrate/data is not even detail, it's motion. Motion is where you'll see codecs/encodings fall apart if they aren't given enough bits.
Motion and or random stuff like film grain.
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post #96 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post


Yup, exactly, one of the best reasons I say not to recompress, do you really want to rerip again in the future? What if you get a much larger 4K TV in the future (all TVs will be 4K before too long, and sizes always get bigger) your "awesome" 720p rips today may look like crap on your equipment tomorrow.

yes, this is true, but also scary, what does this mean for all my Blu rays today?
I have Vhs tapes in my attic from videos I bought back in the 80's!
I also have laser discs I bought in the early 90's, I have VCD's I bought in china town LOL
I have dvd's I bought collected and stored,
I am now replacing most of my DVD's with BLU RAY(only my favorite titles) most of my dvd's will suffice.

BUT.. now you say, 4K tvs will be here soon? yes you are right. and then 8K tv's
now what does that mean for my 1080 BLU RAY of Superman?
if I am upgrading to a 4k tv in 5 years time, wont that mean blu ray will kind of force us all to up grade our titles to 4k remastered versions?

god, eventually you just have to say, OK enough is enough, I can't upgrade I will just have remember this movie in 1080! or 420
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post #97 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by coffeeman101 View Post

yes, this is true, but also scary, what does this mean for all my Blu rays today?
I have Vhs tapes in my attic from videos I bought back in the 80's!
I also have laser discs I bought in the early 90's, I have VCD's I bought in china town LOL
I have dvd's I bought collected and stored,
I am now replacing most of my DVD's with BLU RAY(only my favorite titles) most of my dvd's will suffice.

BUT.. now you say, 4K tvs will be here soon? yes you are right. and then 8K tv's
now what does that mean for my 1080 BLU RAY of Superman?
if I am upgrading to a 4k tv in 5 years time, wont that mean blu ray will kind of force us all to up grade our titles to 4k remastered versions?

god, eventually you just have to say, OK enough is enough, I can't upgrade I will just have remember this movie in 1080! or 420

They will still look great in over 90% of viewing environments and allow you to enjoy viewing them on quite large screens

I don't own anything prior to VHS, but I have a butt load of VHS tapes. I never go back to watch any of them, but I have no qualms about watching an old movie on DVD (rare occasions just out of personal preference)

I particularly dislike watching VHS and have no intentions of getting a working VCR, because the image seems poor to me but primarily due to the audio quality. They just sound so bad to me. The biggest VHS->DVD difference to me was all in the audio. Another thing I like (now, didn't realize when the transition was made) is the relative ease of backing up and preserving the content as it's already digital

4k is already around and has been a while. However, there isn't very much source content as I'm aware. There is a "known" update that will be coming to the HDMI spec (2.0) that will be practical to wait for prior to purchasing a display/avr/player etc. There's also the next generation video codec and the question of whether the 4k format will be distributed through optical media. Perhaps they will shift to some sort of flash memory format, no way to know as far as I can tell. As you have done with your blu-ray additions, I will likely do with my future collection as well. Probably collect some titles specifically for viewing in the future theater room, and be satisfied with blu-ray for the rest. Compressed blu-ray in several cases. I don't really think our primary viewing areas will support large enough screens for me to justify 4k till it's so mainstream that the price is negligibly different
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post #98 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 05:46 AM
 
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DVDs even look great upscaled onto my 106in projector screen. VHS, yeah, it was great at the time but it really is night and day between VHS and DVD. I also agree that almost no one will have the seating space to really enjoy 4K. Its big appeal will be 3D movies.
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post #99 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 06:40 AM
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I also agree that almost no one will have the seating space to really enjoy 4K. Its big appeal will be 3D movies.

Which is why the UHD standard really should make other improvements that will benefit everyone - such as an increased colorspace and color depth. Rec 2020 is a lot bigger than the current 709 for color, but the standard is only using 12 bits per color. I can't remember the chroma sampling but I know its not 4:4:4.

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post #100 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by coffeeman101 View Post

yes, this is true, but also scary, what does this mean for all my Blu rays today?

They'll still look just as great as they do today. In fact some movies won't improve* with UHD, like the three Star Wars prequels, they were shot on 2K digital cameras, so there's no way to improve* them. (*Well, gamut and bit depth could improve them, but I'm guessing most won't rebuy for that).
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I have Vhs tapes in my attic from videos I bought back in the 80's!
I also have laser discs I bought in the early 90's, I have VCD's I bought in china town LOL
I have dvd's I bought collected and stored,

SD in general was terrible, OK DVD was pretty good but VHS was terrible and the fact remains that SD is only good enough for quite small screens at normal viewing distances (say under about 30-35" at a 10-15' viewing distance). Most people these days (I estimate) have something like a 50" TV at those distances. 4K on the other hand (aside from the gamut/bit depth differences) will only be beneficial to those with close viewing ratios, like those with projection setups.
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BUT.. now you say, 4K tvs will be here soon? yes you are right. and then 8K tv's

You can get a Seiki 50" already for something like $1500, or for about the $3000 mark you can get a Samsung or Sony both of which should be compatible with whatever 4K/UHD movie format is decided on. So yeah, they're here.
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now what does that mean for my 1080 BLU RAY of Superman?
if I am upgrading to a 4k tv in 5 years time, wont that mean blu ray will kind of force us all to up grade our titles to 4k remastered versions?

Nobody ever forces you to upgrade your titles. You don't have to replace your DVDs with Blu-rays (and as you say, you aren't).
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god, eventually you just have to say, OK enough is enough, I can't upgrade I will just have remember this movie in 1080! or 420

For as much enjoyment as people get out of an entertainment media/system, it's amazing to see the amount of complaining about an improvement come out. With all the complaining about upgrading you'd think we'd be better off having stuck with VHS.

Personally, I'm happy to see any improvement, and have the option to have better quality at home.
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4k is already around and has been a while. However, there isn't very much source content as I'm aware.

Sony has a service to download movies onto their server/STB, but it only works with Sony 4K TVs. Netflix is supposed to start 4K streaming next year.
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There is a "known" update that will be coming to the HDMI spec (2.0) that will be practical to wait for prior to purchasing a display/avr/player etc.

HDMI 2.0 was announced at CEDIA in September and most 4K TVs/projectors either support it or offer an upgrade for it.
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There's also the next generation video codec and the question of whether the 4k format will be distributed through optical media.

What it sounds like right now is that there will be a UHD/4K Blu-ray disc format maybe by the end of 2014. Sounds like it will use 3-layer 100GB discs and H.265.
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post #101 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 08:01 AM
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HDMI 2.0 was announced at CEDIA in September and most 4K TVs/projectors either support it or offer an upgrade for it.
I think most is probably a strong word. Which 4k TV do you know off hand that supports native 4k and HDMI 2.0? Or projector? I thought sony was the only one saying it would be a software upgrade? I knew I was a little out of the loop, but most 4k tvs and projectors are coming with native 2.0 or upgrade support? I'm always wary of any OEM "promise" but that's just me
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What it sounds like right now is that there will be a UHD/4K Blu-ray disc format maybe by the end of 2014. Sounds like it will use 3-layer 100GB discs and H.265.
What that still sounds like to me is just speculation, but it will be exciting (to me) to see if they potentially break away from the spinning optical format. Also, if single is 25GB and dual layer is 50GB, wouldn't triple layer be 75GB?
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post #102 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 08:21 AM
 
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Which is why the UHD standard really should make other improvements that will benefit everyone - such as an increased colorspace and color depth. Rec 2020 is a lot bigger than the current 709 for color, but the standard is only using 12 bits per color. I can't remember the chroma sampling but I know its not 4:4:4.

But if they did that then what would be the next "must have" feature for NEXT year?
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post #103 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 08:25 AM
 
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HDMI 2.0 does not use a new connector and the preliminary spec has been around for some time. If a manufacturer wanted to set themselves apart, they could have built their current hardware to the new expected specs around Sept. or so of this year (if I remember correctly). The final specs are only slightly different, and all the chips designed for the expected specs can easily do the final ones. Sometime in January the test suite will be released so manufacturers can certify their chips and devices as compliant. A firmware update will be all that is needed for the future looking manufacturers. Sony is one of them, if I remember correctly.

Keeping the same connector was a smart move, even if we all actually hate it.
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post #104 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 08:49 AM
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Which 4k TV do you know off hand that supports native 4k and HDMI 2.0?

This is the only one I know of Panasonic TX-L65WT600 (WT600) Ultra HD 4K TV

http://www.avforums.com/review/panasonic-tx-l65wt600-wt600-ultra-hd-4k-tv-review.9451
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post #105 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 09:22 AM
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Keeping the same connector was a smart move, even if we all actually hate it.

I don't follow, why is it hated? Reminds me of SATA smile.gif AFAIK, no difference in cable between 1/2/3
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post #106 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 09:34 AM
 
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I don't follow, why is it hated? Reminds me of SATA smile.gif AFAIK, no difference in cable between 1/2/3

It is too fragile - breaks really easily if flexed up and down. That seems to happen quite a bit when it is plugged and unplugged a lot. I have never had a problem with it, but a lot of people complain about how weak it is. Also, it is easily pulled out when moving equipment.
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post #107 of 108 Old 12-30-2013, 09:42 AM
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I think most is probably a strong word. Which 4k TV do you know off hand that supports native 4k and HDMI 2.0? Or projector? I thought sony was the only one saying it would be a software upgrade? I knew I was a little out of the loop, but most 4k tvs and projectors are coming with native 2.0 or upgrade support? I'm always wary of any OEM "promise" but that's just me

Well remember there are only a handfull of "4k"/UHD displays out, but off hand:

Sony
VPL VW1100ES
VPL VW1000ES (upgrade)
VPL VW600ES

I think all the Sony flat panels via a Firmware update

Samsung's have an external connector box that can be upgraded

Looks like Toshibas are a firmware upgrade.

Panasonic I think is the only company with TVs with HDMI 2.0 that support the full 18Gbps of the spec, the rest are using essentially HDMI 1.4 chips upgraded for content protection (10.2Gbps) but that's enough for 24p 4k.

Here's some more:
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57607131-221/hdmi-2.0-upgrade-path-where-do-the-manufacturers-stand/


Quote:
What that still sounds like to me is just speculation, but it will be exciting (to me) to see if they potentially break away from the spinning optical format. Also, if single is 25GB and dual layer is 50GB, wouldn't triple layer be 75GB?

There's lots of good info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490218/blu-ray-4k-uhd-coming-2014-likely

But here's one tidbit:
http://www.singulus.com/en/press-news/press-releases/press-release/article/singulus-technologies-presents-production-technology-for-100-gb-blu-ray-disc/7.html
"Just in time for the market introduction of the new ultra-high definition television technology (4K or Ultra-HD), we completed the development of the production technology for the new triple-layer Blu-ray Discs with 100 GB storage capacity”"

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I don't follow, why is it hated? Reminds me of SATA smile.gif AFAIK, no difference in cable between 1/2/3

Because the connectors are fragile, finicky and don't always stay in well. DVI was a much better plug, though not as "mass market" friendly.

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post #108 of 108 Old 11-04-2014, 02:06 PM
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I haven't done a direct comparison of the same movie, but I've watched plenty of both and the main difference I can see if that I've NEVER seen a touch of compression artifacts on Blu-ray discs (not even when strobes are involved), they are apparent on a few scenes on MKV files. Audio is the other obvious difference as mkv files don't usually include lossless audio.
You can include Lossless audio in your MKV files. here is a link to a program that will allow you to do this, its called staxrip. I wouldn't want to sacrifice sound. DTS Master Audio is always better.

http://www.dvd-guides.com/guides/blu...staxriphttp://
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