ATI Radeon HD 4600 & 4800 series support 7.1 channel HDMI audio! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 2819 Old 05-16-2008, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by one_2go View Post

I just bought a MSI 3650 with the $20 rebate for $50 from Newegg. I don't feel bad about this because it has an Integral HDMI connector. By the time ATI has sorted the connectors on the cards or the dongles someone will come out with a card that has a built in HDMI connector.

It took me this long to find a 3650 card that would fit in my Shuttle that had a silent enough fan and the built in HDMI connector. Judging from their track record for 2*** & 3*** why would AMD/ATI change their practice even if it is HDMI 1.3. I am sure they come up with some cackle mania idea of why it takes longer to get a HDMI connector on the card.

I bought the Diamond first but it created way too much noise. I returned it and bought the Sapphire DDR3 instead of your MSI from Egghead. Now, if these 4xxx able to do these TrueHD format, I will camp out to get one as soon as become available.
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post #32 of 2819 Old 05-16-2008, 01:15 PM
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For me prime importance is HDMI connector on the card, next noise as in passive preferably but all this has to fit into my Shuttle. When they are on the market yep I'll flog mine on eBay, not too difficult in the UK as I believe you can't get one for £25 at current exchange rates
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post #33 of 2819 Old 05-16-2008, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by one_2go View Post

For me prime importance is HDMI connector on the card, next noise as in passive preferably but all this has to fit into my Shuttle. When they are on the market yep I'll flog mine on eBay, not too difficult in the UK as I believe you can't get one for £25 at current exchange rates

I have my HD 2600Pro for 6 months and I sold in eBay for $60 before I bought my 3650 2 weeks ago. So it is not that bad and I don't mind to pay little bit to trade up.
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post #34 of 2819 Old 05-16-2008, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by hlkc View Post

I have my HD 2600Pro for 6 months and I sold in eBay for $60 before I bought my 3650 2 weeks ago. So it is not that bad and I don't mind to pay little bit to trade up.

I have gambled with the idea to turn my HD2600Pro into a passive one as the fan is so loud that I can't sell it anymore. Maybe disassemble fix fan and resell.
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post #35 of 2819 Old 05-16-2008, 10:45 PM
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What does claiming 7.1 HDMI mean on these future cards?

I know that the 3xxx series had the basic motherboard-variant audio chip on board, but all that provided was DD/DTS or 2 channel PCM. Basically DVD abilities. Does claiming 7.1 audio on a discrete video card mean that they are including an Azalea chip onboard(or something equivalent) and are capable of at least 24/96 quality multichannel LPCM (or better yet, full Bitstream)? Or have they gone the Nvidia route and have an input for audio originated from a sound card?
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post #36 of 2819 Old 05-16-2008, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnabney View Post

What does claiming 7.1 HDMI mean on these future cards?

I know that the 3xxx series had the basic motherboard-variant audio chip on board, but all that provided was DD/DTS or 2 channel PCM. Basically DVD abilities. Does claiming 7.1 audio on a discrete video card mean that they are including an Azalea chip onboard(or something equivalent) and are capable of at least 24/96 quality multichannel LPCM (or better yet, full Bitstream)? Or have they gone the Nvidia route and have an input for audio originated from a sound card?

TG Daily did not say details, but the card surely has a HDMI audio controller that supports lossless multi-channel LPCM just like G35/GeForce 8200 (and possibly TrueHD/DTS-HD MA bitstream).

The current NVIDIA cards support only S/PDIF pass-through (2 channel LPCM, DD 5.1, DTS).

EAX support is perhaps absent, however. ASUS Xonar AV1 could be an all-in-one solution for a gaming HTPC.

E8400 + MCP7A + GeForce GTX 200 series + ASUS Xonar AV1
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post #37 of 2819 Old 05-16-2008, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

TG Daily did not say details, but the card surely has a HDMI audio controller that supports lossless multi-channel LPCM just like G35/GeForce 8200 (and possibly TrueHD/DTS-HD MA bitstream).

The current NVIDIA cards support only S/PDIF pass-through (2 channel LPCM, DD 5.1, DTS).

EAX support is perhaps absent, however. ASUS Xonar AV1 could be an all-in-one solution for gaming HTPC.

Renethx is correct. It outputs HD audio over the HDMI interface, not just SPDIF quality audio. I haven't heard about bitstream support, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was there. getting the players to do the right thing is actually the harder part.
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post #38 of 2819 Old 05-17-2008, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

Renethx is correct. It outputs HD audio over the HDMI interface, not just SPDIF quality audio. I haven't heard about bitstream support, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was there. getting the players to do the right thing is actually the harder part.

Can you guys educate me that I thought as long as it is lossless it will able to do TrueHD via HDMI 1.3?
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post #39 of 2819 Old 05-17-2008, 02:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hlkc View Post

Can you guys educate me that I thought as long as it is lossless it will able to do TrueHD via HDMI 1.3?

LPCM is a lossless uncompressed format (supported by HDMI 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3), while TrueHD & DTS-HD MA are lossless compressed formats (supported only by HDMI 1.3).
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post #40 of 2819 Old 05-17-2008, 07:52 AM
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LPCM is a lossless uncompressed format (supported by HDMI 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3), while TrueHD & DTS-HD MA are lossless compressed formats (supported only by HDMI 1.3).

Let's clarify that... TrueHD & DTS-HD MA can be decoded in the player and and sent via LPCM by HDMI 1.1-1.3a, not sure about 1.0. TrueHD & DTS-HD MA can be bitstreamed through HDMI 1.3 and 1.3a only.

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post #41 of 2819 Old 05-17-2008, 08:07 AM
 
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TrueHD & DTS-HD MA sounds the same whether the player decodes it or the AVR decodes it. In this case, it is basically like a .zip file, which makes it very different from the older codecs.

TrueHD & DTS-HD MA are lossless compressed, when decompressed, they make LPCM streams. It does not matter what decompresses them, the result is the same.

The debate then goes onto whether sending the compressed or the uncompressed has a better chance of corruption in the cabling between the player and the AVR (from EMI, etc).
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post #42 of 2819 Old 05-17-2008, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

The debate then goes onto whether sending the compressed or the uncompressed has a better chance of corruption in the cabling between the player and the AVR (from EMI, etc).

Or between the disk and the software.

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post #43 of 2819 Old 05-17-2008, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

Let's clarify that... TrueHD & DTS-HD MA can be decoded in the player and and sent via LPCM by HDMI 1.1-1.3a, not sure about 1.0. TrueHD & DTS-HD MA can be bitstreamed through HDMI 1.3 and 1.3a only.

Jim

So if we want true 49/96 TrueHD then that means we refer to bitstream not LPCM, right? Since we can't do 1.3a HDMI out today, how can we do TrueHD & DTS-HD MA LPCM by HDMI 1.1 today? analogue? multi-channel mini-RCA sound card to pre-amp?
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post #44 of 2819 Old 05-17-2008, 11:45 AM
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no, HDMI 1.1-1.3a can supply 8 channels of LPCM at 192khz.... as long as your player decodes the HD audio into LPCM, you're golden !

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post #45 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 08:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by archibael View Post

Or between the disk and the software.

That part is the same regardless of sending compressed or uncompressed. It is compressed until it hits the point where decompression occurs. If that is the AVR, it passes through the software to get there. If it is the software, it stop being compressed at that point. Both syles are identical to that point.

The correct solution is to remove interference from the path regardless of the style of data sent.
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post #46 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 01:47 PM
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I'm still a little confused as to how this new card gets its audio. Does the card essentially become the "all-in-one" audio/video solution, negating a need for any on-board or discrete audio solution? Or, does the card need to be fed the 7.1 LPCM streams to a header on the card intended to be connected to either the motherboard or a discrete audio card?
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post #47 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by floepie View Post

I'm still a little confused as to how this new card gets its audio. Does the card essentially become the "all-in-one" audio/video solution, negating a need for any on-board or discrete audio solution? Or, does the card need to be fed the 7.1 LPCM streams to a header on the card intended to be connected to either the motherboard or a discrete audio card?

I suppose it will be a HDMI out. But what format will support? It remains a secret to the consumer today.
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post #48 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

That part is the same regardless of sending compressed or uncompressed. It is compressed until it hits the point where decompression occurs. If that is the AVR, it passes through the software to get there. If it is the software, it stop being compressed at that point. Both syles are identical to that point.

I was being sarcastic, and referring to the fact that the passing of the compressed audio is immune to the downconversion problems we are seeing.

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post #49 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floepie View Post

I'm still a little confused as to how this new card gets its audio. Does the card essentially become the "all-in-one" audio/video solution, negating a need for any on-board or discrete audio solution? Or, does the card need to be fed the 7.1 LPCM streams to a header on the card intended to be connected to either the motherboard or a discrete audio card?

HD 4850 is an all-in-one audio/video solution. HDMI audio controller is built in the card and grabs multi-channel LPCM/AC3/DTS sound (and possibly TrueHD/DTS-HD MA bitstream) through the PCI Express bus, muxes it with video signal and sends it over HDMI. Of course, for full resolution LPCM and bitstream, the support for PAP is essential.
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post #50 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 07:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by archibael View Post

I was being sarcastic, and referring to the fact that the passing of the compressed audio is immune to the downconversion problems we are seeing.



I know. I was being sarcastic too, though not as good as it as you are. I find it stupid that people argue which is better, "unzipping" in the AVR or in the player. It is the same.
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post #51 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 07:04 PM
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That sounds great. You wouldn't want to speculate as to whether compressed DD/DTS or even music PCM data could be transmitted as well, would you?
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post #52 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post



I know. I was being sarcastic too, though not as good as it as you are. I find it stupid that people argue which is better, "unzipping" in the AVR or in the player. It is the same.

I know that it should sound the same, but I have seen reports that bitstream sounds better, such as this post by Joerod. BTW, Joerod is very well regarded in the "AMPs, Receivers, and Processors" forum.

I have never tried TrueHD or DTS-MA bitstream myself, so I can't comment personally.

-Dave
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post #53 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

HD 4850 is an all-in-one audio/video solution. HDMI audio controller is built in the card and grabs multi-channel LPCM/AC3/DTS sound (and possibly TrueHD/DTS-HD MA bitstream) through the PCI Express bus, muxes it with video signal and sends it over HDMI. Of course, for full resolution LPCM and bitstream, the support for PAP is essential.

Okay, I am still confused. Does it absorb and encode onto the HDMI transmission the data from an existing audio chip on the motherboard or a discrete card on the PCI(e) bus? Or does it actually have an audio chip on it that does everything? The reason I ask is because I am building a new computer (gaming HTPC) and I would need to know if I should be looking for motherboards with the top audio chips built-in.
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post #54 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnabney View Post

Okay, I am still confused. Does it absorb and encode onto the HDMI transmission the data from an existing audio chip on the motherboard or a discrete card on the PCI(e) bus? Or does it actually have an audio chip on it that does everything? The reason I ask is because I am building a new computer (gaming HTPC) and I would need to know if I should be looking for motherboards with the top audio chips built-in.

All ATI cards since the HD 2000 series have had an integrated Intel HD Audio (Azalia) compliant codec, so the ATI video card is its own audio device. The problem until the 4x00 series is that the connection between the on die audio codec and the GPU was equivallent to S/PDIF and nothing more. The 4x00 series seems to rectify this, so full 7.1 multi-channel LPCM can be passed.
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post #55 of 2819 Old 05-18-2008, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnabney View Post

The reason I ask is because I am building a new computer (gaming HTPC) and I would need to know if I should be looking for motherboards with the top audio chips built-in.

For gaming HTPC, you may still need a good DSP supporting EAX 5.0. So ASUS Xonar AV1 would be your first choice.
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post #56 of 2819 Old 05-19-2008, 11:45 AM
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My feeling is ATI might work with Realtek somehow. All sounds cards now, implement D/A converters. Perhaps the ATI cards would bypass D/A decoding and pass the signal directly to the HDMI? My question is, will the lower end also support HDMI audio?

Finally: Why is that those 3xxx cards support H.264 yet based on people's statements, choke on de-interlacing?? Is the 3450 really that weak on this regard? I wonder why they wouldn't be able to implement full de-interlacing with the RV710 chips...
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post #57 of 2819 Old 05-19-2008, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

For gaming HTPC, you may still need a good DSP supporting EAX 5.0. So ASUS Xonar AV1 would be your first choice.

I considered the same thing, but I had three issues with that. First, why pay a ton of money for DACs on a discrete sound card that will never be used? I have some expensive DACs in my receiver and I would like to use them. Second, that big elaborate HDMI in/out card and daughter card that Asus is about to kick out the door is going to cost a pile of money. And third, the more complicated something is the more likely to have failures. If everything is on one piece of hardware the likelihood of conflicts is theoretically much lower and you only need to worry about one set of drivers.

Also, I want Creative and everything they touch to burn in @!#$. So I gave up on EAX some time ago. Microsoft did too with Vista so I imagine that the entire EAX technology is going to wither away.
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post #58 of 2819 Old 05-19-2008, 06:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mcnabney View Post

Second, that big elaborate HDMI in/out card and daughter card that Asus is about to kick out the door is going to cost a pile of money.

How much is it going to cost?
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post #59 of 2819 Old 05-19-2008, 07:25 PM
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I guess we'll just have to wait to see if this is protected path or if the card can bitstream out. Otherwise, at least with PDVD, this would be the same as the current intel onboard solutions. (although, perhaps with better PQ.)

Chris
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post #60 of 2819 Old 05-19-2008, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

How much is it going to cost?

I am only guessing here, based upon their prior prices, but it will be steep.

Xonar AV1 ~ probably $200 MSRP
HDAV-DB1 daughter card ~ between $50-$100, maybe more.

So that is probably at least $250 added on to the cost of a computer. The fact is that a sound card that provides good DACs is expensive to make. If you don't intend to use the DACs and just send it out digitally on the HDMI cable 95% of the card's cost is wasted. That same $250 will pay for most of a 48XX series card. If you are on a budget I imagine the sound card can be lived without.
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