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post #3061 of 7891 Old 06-08-2009, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrophel View Post

Any clue if western digital black 1 TB or western digitial caviar green 1,5TB works good on Areca ARC-1680ix-16 ?

I'm a big fan of the WD1001FALS (WD Black 1TB) - 5 yr warranty and only three platters. I'm buying more as we speak. I haven't bought any 1.5TB WD's, kinda staying away from that form factor until everyone pulls their heads out to resolve firmware issues on array cards and/or drives. I have 1.5Tb Seagates working on an Adaptec 5805 (8 port card) in RAID6, but that's the highest port count card they'll work with.

I have two sets of 24 x WD1001FALS drives connected to ARC1680ix-24's, so consider yourself good there. Just make sure you enable TLER.

I think we need another few months before any size above 1Tb stabilizes and isn't so bleeding edge, at least for arrays. I realize some people have 3Ware high port count cards working with the Seagate 1.5's, but still seems a bit sketchy.
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post #3062 of 7891 Old 06-09-2009, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick update- I talked to Mike at Norco today, he confirmed that a 24-bay chassis *is* still in the works but apparently hasn't been finalized yet. He noted its been a challenge stuffing 24 bays into 4U, and I pointed out Supermicro's already done it and quite beautifully, so its NOT impossible and many people would be interested since the higher count multiport SATA cards tend to come in multiples of 8, meaning 4 ports on a card can go to waste in a 20-bay case unless you want loose drives sitting inside the case. I may start a separate thread to solicit design feedback and feature requests since Norco is open to it.

I also noted many people would be interested in an expander, basically a drive cage - for people that just want to add lots of drives to an existing system. Example take a full length server case like a Norco 4220, cut it in half and leave leave the front half (drive bays, backplane and fans), and leave just enough room in the back to add a power supply. Add a couple SFF-8088 connectors on the back and it's heaven.
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post #3063 of 7891 Old 06-09-2009, 05:24 PM
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They could make it 5U like the TST ESR-524, as well. Not that much bigger and gives you more room inside as well as being able to have DVD-ROM and floppy on the front.
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post #3064 of 7891 Old 06-09-2009, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm.. 4U is kind of a sweet spot form factor though - 5U makes it a bit too big, at least in my mind. I've dealt with 5U servers and they're one step over the line into "bulky" territory. These days most people only need the optical drive once to set up the O/S (and usually I just use an external/USB DVD drive anyway for initial O/S setup), and floppy is legacy/irrelevant. Worst case then rear-mount the slim optical if people absolutely want one.

To me the perfect form factor of chassis already exists, the Supermicro 24 bay, we just need a cheaper and quieter version, meaning the ability to add our own power supply, etc.
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post #3065 of 7891 Old 06-09-2009, 07:38 PM
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Agreed - I'd buy the Supermicro 24-bay right now if it were about 2/3 its current price (or even used). A 24-bay Norco would be great, though. Do you know what backplane connector it would be (and the most common for that matter?)
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post #3066 of 7891 Old 06-09-2009, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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sounded like it wasn't set in stone yet, but if the Norco 4220 is any indication, it'd probably be SFF-8087 (miniSAS) connectors, which I'd prefer for sake of simplicity (plugging in 5 or 6 miniSAS to the backplane is a lot easier than plugging in 20-24 SATA cables- which you also have to make sure are in right order, etc).
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post #3067 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 03:05 AM
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If I'm not mistaken the 24-bay Supermicro chassis only has one or two miniSAS connectors on it's backplane, and a built-in 36-port expander also on the backplane to drive all 24 bays. That's much different than Norco's design approach with 5 or 6 connectors for 20 or 24 bays and is probably responsible for a significant amount of the price difference.

There are pros and cons to both designs, but even if the pros were soundly on the Supermicro side I don't think I could justify their higher cost. I'm planning on doing a little more research into the "total" cost delta between the two chassis (ie: Supermicro's price includes redundant PSUs, with Norco you add your own. Only one SAS card and SAS cable needed vs. 2 cards and 6 cables, etc.) When it's all said and done who knows, but I do prefer using my own ATX 90% efficient supply over whatever comes with the Supermicro.
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post #3068 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 08:19 AM
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It depends whether you're talking about the more common 900W Supermicro, or the new 1200W. The 900 uses 24 SATA connectors on the backplane, like the Norco 4020. Its PSU is also 85+% efficient, IIRC (can't find that anywhere ATM though). The 1200W uses six SFF-8087 connectors and is 93% efficient.

Cost for two 900W modules (Provantage): $340
Cost for two 1200W modules (Provantage): $400 (may as well get this one for the difference)
I can't find the PSU backplane, though (P/N: PDB-PT846-8824), but other SuperMicro PDBs are around $100. Might need to order direct from SM. But that's $500 for a redundant 1+1 1200W 93% efficient PSU! That's a steal, IMO. I'm just not quite sure I'd want to take the plunge without knowing the exact dimensions of it, in order to put into a different case.

I can't find the new SM for sale anywhere, but the 900W is consistently $950. About $440 of that is the PSU, so the rest of the chassis is $500. I think its design and quality is $200 better than the Norco, but as much as I break it down to it making sense, I'm not sure I can justify that much for a case + PSU!
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post #3069 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

These days most people only need the optical drive once to set up the O/S (and usually I just use an external/USB DVD drive anyway for initial O/S setup), and floppy is legacy/irrelevant. Worst case then rear-mount the slim optical if people absolutely want one.

I would also really appreciate an internal full-height optical drive for my BD burner. While I realize that many folks use their hot-swap boxes as storage only my approach has been more all-in-one. Adding a 1U rack just to hold an optical drive seems a bit much. I suppose I could put in a firewire/USB/memory card reader too . . .

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post #3070 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miltimj View Post

I can't find the new SM for sale anywhere, but the 900W is consistently $950. About $440 of that is the PSU, so the rest of the chassis is $500. I think its design and quality is $200 better than the Norco, but as much as I break it down to it making sense, I'm not sure I can justify that much for a case + PSU!

I agree that design/quality is at least $200 better than Norco- everything aligns perfectly, fits like a glove. However you forgot to mention the jet engine noise of the PSU fans, which can't be tuned down without opening them up and doing soldering/surgery and adding voltage regs (assuming slowing the fans down is even safe to begin with and that the PSU's wouldn't overheat).

I have 2 of the Supermicro 900W 24bay cases, and my plan is to dump them for Norco's (or any other alternative) as soon as a 24-bay box comes out, and STRICTLY for noise reasons. My SM's are in my garage and yet I can hear them in other rooms in the house, so these days i'm actually just leaving them off most of the time and having them serve as backup storage, waking up every week or so to replicate.

As for PSU issues, proprietary always makes me nervous so I actually prefer the add-your-own method. If I still have the box in 5 years and one of the PSU's blows up in the SM, I have no clue if SM will still have a replacement to sell me. I much rather an off the shelf PSU - if it blows up I just replace it quickly. Since the scope of these servers are for media storage, not business continuity, I think a single off-the-shelf PSU has the advantage.
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post #3071 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 01:01 PM
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The Supermicro cases come in 3 versions. The ones with TQ in the part number have individual SAS/SATA drive connections. The E1 versions have a single ported SAS expander integrated into the backplane and the E2 versions have a dual ported SAS expander integrated. Magius and miltimj are discussing different versions above.

- Mike
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post #3072 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

I agree that design/quality is at least $200 better than Norco- everything aligns perfectly, fits like a glove. However you forgot to mention the jet engine noise of the PSU fans, which can't be tuned down without opening them up and doing soldering/surgery and adding voltage regs (assuming slowing the fans down is even safe to begin with and that the PSU's wouldn't overheat).

I have 2 of the Supermicro 900W 24bay cases, and my plan is to dump them for Norco's (or any other alternative) as soon as a 24-bay box comes out, and STRICTLY for noise reasons. My SM's are in my garage and yet I can hear them in other rooms in the house, so these days i'm actually just leaving them off most of the time and having them serve as backup storage, waking up every week or so to replicate.

Personally, I wish they would just offer the cases without a power supply. The redundant supplies really jack up the price and noise.

- Mike
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post #3073 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

I agree that design/quality is at least $200 better than Norco- everything aligns perfectly, fits like a glove. However you forgot to mention the jet engine noise of the PSU fans, which can't be tuned down without opening them up and doing soldering/surgery and adding voltage regs (assuming slowing the fans down is even safe to begin with and that the PSU's wouldn't overheat).

I'm not sure how you can get redundant 900W PSUs that aren't going to be noisy. That's the price (in $$ and dB) you pay. That said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

I have 2 of the Supermicro 900W 24bay cases, and my plan is to dump them for Norco's (or any other alternative) as soon as a 24-bay box comes out, and STRICTLY for noise reasons. My SM's are in my garage and yet I can hear them in other rooms in the house, so these days i'm actually just leaving them off most of the time and having them serve as backup storage, waking up every week or so to replicate.

...woah, seriously? They're that loud? Do you have an SPL meter to measure the dB?
Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

As for PSU issues, proprietary always makes me nervous so I actually prefer the add-your-own method. If I still have the box in 5 years and one of the PSU's blows up in the SM, I have no clue if SM will still have a replacement to sell me. I much rather an off the shelf PSU - if it blows up I just replace it quickly. Since the scope of these servers are for media storage, not business continuity, I think a single off-the-shelf PSU has the advantage.

True, unfortunately for me (from that standpoint), I'm planning on consolidating almost every computer in my house to run on it virtualized, including an email & web server (probably 20+ VMs). So that would be a lot to go down at once. I wouldn't mind add-your-own either, if there was anything near the same price/performance and redundant. I haven't found anything yet.
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post #3074 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have an SPL meter. Again I mean they're loud in a home environment. They're fine for a data center or server room obviously. They're a tad louder than when you first turn on an HP DL380 for example.

To be fair, SM built these for business purposes, as an alternative to the HP's and Dell's of the world. In that respect they deliver. Home media enthusiasts have cannibalized them for the high number of hot swap drive bays, so really I have no right to complain about server class equipment behaving like server class equipment, except to warn others that's what you're getting, lest anyone gets the idea to put one next to the TV in the entertainment rack.
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post #3075 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odditory View Post

I have 2 of the Supermicro 900W 24bay cases, and my plan is to dump them for Norco's (or any other alternative) as soon as a 24-bay box comes out, and STRICTLY for noise reasons.

While I'd prefer the E1 versions, I'd love to pick up your TQ cases if you decide to let them go for a decent price!

I'm running out of space again and would prefer to stay with the same model. My equipment is in a well insulated equipment room in the basement, so noise is not an issue for me.
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post #3076 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 01:50 PM
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Oh, I expect datacenter noise from a datacenter chassis, and intend to put one in my basement in a separate well insulated (and cooled) room, but hearing one in the garage from the house is pretty crazy.

But if it's like a DL380, I think I could handle that. Unfortunately pclausen beat me to it, but I was going to ask for one as well (though I only need one). I suppose it depends how soon you sell though, as I'm going to build it out one way or another relatively "soon".
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post #3077 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 01:57 PM
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Did someone say hotswap bays??

(In temporary storage right now...)

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post #3078 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 02:15 PM
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I love how they're near plumbing/HW heater with water on the floor...
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post #3079 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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kapone: *PANT* awesome pic.

On a sidenote, I've started a separate thread based on a recent conversation with Norco about the 24-bay chassis they're trying to finalize (and have asked AVS for input on), so please submit your server case design wishlist in the following thread, in which we'll also discuss the possibility of 16 and 24-bay expanders.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1154444

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post #3080 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 03:39 PM
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Hi Guys,

I recieved confirmation that the 3Ware card will work with the 1.5TB drives.

A review on newegg ( link below) stated that "single I/O streams (drag and drop) still chug along at 30-60 MB/s"
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816116046

This really worries me and I am puzzled why it is so slow.

Can someone shed some light please.

Help is much appreciated.
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post #3081 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miltimj View Post

I love how they're near plumbing/HW heater with water on the floor...

I know... We have had a boatload of rain here in Maryland in the last few weeks, and my basement seems to have sprung a minor leak in one of the drain pipes. It's being fixed in two days, but yeah I hear ya. I feel bad as well.
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post #3082 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farris View Post

Hi Guys,

I recieved confirmation that the 3Ware card will work with the 1.5TB drives.

A review on newegg ( link below) stated that "single I/O streams (drag and drop) still chug along at 30-60 MB/s"
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816116046

This really worries me and I am puzzled why it is so slow.

Can someone shed some light please.

Help is much appreciated.

These wimpy onboard controllers have issues doing RAID6 across a ton of drives. But 30-60 MB/s is pretty slow. The user probably mixed a bunch of different model drives on the same RAID volume or is trying to do a copy from the raid volume across the network to a single drive. Amateur mistakes.
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post #3083 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

These wimpy onboard controllers have issues doing RAID6 across a ton of drives. But 30-60 MB/s is pretty slow. The user probably mixed a bunch of different model drives on the same RAID volume or is trying to do a copy from the raid volume across the network to a single drive. Amateur mistakes.

So if I were to use all Seagate 1.5TB drives would could I expect?

My spec is as follows:

CORSAIR XMS3 12GB (6 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Desktop Memory Model HX3X12G1333C9 - Retail
$219.99

ASUS Z8NA-D6 (ASMB4-IKVM) Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5500 ATX Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series Server Motherboard - Retail
$359.99

3ware 9650SE-24M8 PCI Express x 8 SATA II Red Hot RAID 6 Controller Card -Retail
$1,114.99

NORCO RPC-4220 4U Rackmount Server Case - Retail
$349.99

NORCO RL-26 26" 3-sections Ball Bearing Sliding Rail kit for rackmount
$38.99

2 x Intel Xeon E5520 Nehalem 2.26GHz LGA 1366 80W Quad-Core Server Processor Model BX80602E5520 - Retail
$379.99 Each

2 x Intel BXSTS100C Passive/active combination heat sink with removable fan - Retail
$31.99each

HP J9028B Switch http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en...9-3445962.html

20 x 1.5TB Seagate Drives


I know the RAM and dual processors is overkill. But 12GB for $200 what the hell.

Help is much appreciated!
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post #3084 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farris View Post

Hi Guys,

I recieved confirmation that the 3Ware card will work with the 1.5TB drives.

A review on newegg ( link below) stated that "single I/O streams (drag and drop) still chug along at 30-60 MB/s"
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816116046

This really worries me and I am puzzled why it is so slow.

Can someone shed some light please.

Help is much appreciated.

Remember, in order to accomplish the benchmark transfer rates both ends of the transfer need to be fast. Which typically means not ethernet, not single hard drive, not optical drive. Chances are he was using one of these.

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post #3085 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farris View Post

So if I were to use all Seagate 1.5TB drives would could I expect?

My spec is as follows:

CORSAIR XMS3 12GB (6 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Desktop Memory Model HX3X12G1333C9 - Retail
$219.99

ASUS Z8NA-D6 (ASMB4-IKVM) Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5500 ATX Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series Server Motherboard - Retail
$359.99

3ware 9650SE-24M8 PCI Express x 8 SATA II Red Hot RAID 6 Controller Card -Retail
$1,114.99

NORCO RPC-4220 4U Rackmount Server Case - Retail
$349.99

NORCO RL-26 26" 3-sections Ball Bearing Sliding Rail kit for rackmount
$38.99

2 x Intel Xeon E5520 Nehalem 2.26GHz LGA 1366 80W Quad-Core Server Processor Model BX80602E5520 - Retail
$379.99 Each

2 x Intel BXSTS100C Passive/active combination heat sink with removable fan - Retail
$31.99each

HP J9028B Switch http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en...9-3445962.html

20 x 1.5TB Seagate Drives


I know the RAM and dual processors is overkill. But 12GB for $200 what the hell.

Help is much appreciated!

Hmm...your RAID card is an x8 link, but your motherboard doesn't have x8 slots.... (It has x8 physical slots, but electrically they are x4, your RAID card will run at half bandwidth, unless you plan to plonk it in the x16 slot, which means no video card, assuming you wanted one in the first place).
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post #3086 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Hmm...your RAID card is an x8 link, but your motherboard doesn't have x8 slots.... (It has x8 physical slots, but electrically they are x4, your RAID card will run at half bandwidth, unless you plan to plonk it in the x16 slot, which means no video card, assuming you wanted one in the first place).

Thanks for pointing that out.

I was going to use on board graphics, but I guess I should change the motherboard... Any recommendations
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post #3087 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 04:51 PM
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ASUS Z8NA-D6

Total PCI/PCI-X/PCI-E Slots: 5
Slot Location 1: 1 * PCI 32bit/33 MHz
Slot Location 2: 1 * MIO Slot for Audio card (PCI-E x1 is not supported)
Slot Location 3: 1 * PCI-E x8 (Gen2 x4 Link)
Slot Location 4: 1 * PCI-E x8 (Gen2 x4 Link)
Slot Location 6: 1 * PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x16 Link)
Additional Slot 1: 1 * PIKE Slot for Stroage expansion

http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=JoOxbkv8HgVqHLrz

there is one 16x slot

can allwys buy one crapy pci gfx card
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post #3088 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farris View Post

So if I were to use all Seagate 1.5TB drives would could I expect?

My spec is as follows:

CORSAIR XMS3 12GB (6 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Desktop Memory Model HX3X12G1333C9 - Retail
$219.99

ASUS Z8NA-D6 (ASMB4-IKVM) Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5500 ATX Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series Server Motherboard - Retail
$359.99

3ware 9650SE-24M8 PCI Express x 8 SATA II Red Hot RAID 6 Controller Card -Retail
$1,114.99

NORCO RPC-4220 4U Rackmount Server Case - Retail
$349.99

NORCO RL-26 26" 3-sections Ball Bearing Sliding Rail kit for rackmount
$38.99

2 x Intel Xeon E5520 Nehalem 2.26GHz LGA 1366 80W Quad-Core Server Processor Model BX80602E5520 - Retail
$379.99 Each

2 x Intel BXSTS100C Passive/active combination heat sink with removable fan - Retail
$31.99each

HP J9028B Switch http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en...9-3445962.html

20 x 1.5TB Seagate Drives


I know the RAM and dual processors is overkill. But 12GB for $200 what the hell.

Help is much appreciated!

Wow. Overkill is not the word. That is frankly ridiculous for a home server.

Even if you are trying to future proof, dual Nehalems will last barely any longer than a single Q9xxx cpu in terms of future useability - the processors available in 5 years will likely be cheaper & infinately more powerful than anything now available. Unless you intend to do some serious computation (FEA, CFD, etc) or serve a few thousand users you will never gain any benefit from the cpus or from the RAM. You will just spend a boatload of extra cash upfront coupled with higher power bills for the privilage.

And (I assume you realise) you don't have a psu...
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post #3089 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Farris View Post

Thanks for pointing that out.

I was going to use on board graphics, but I guess I should change the motherboard... Any recommendations

If Extended ATX is OK:

- TYAN S7012GM4NR Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5520 SSI EEB Dual Intel Xeon Processor 5500 Series Server Motherboard - Open Box price $315

1 x PCI-E x8 slot (w/ x4 link)
4 x PCI-E Gen.2 x8 slots

- Open Box: ASUS Z8PE-D12X(ASMB4-IKVM) Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5520 Tylersburg SSI EEB 3.61 Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series w/ Remote Management, PCI-X Server Motherboard - $353

3 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x8 Link)
1 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x16 Link) (Auto switch to x8 Link if slot 5 is occupied)
2 x PCI-X Slots (64-bit 133MHz)

Otherwise:

- Open Box: ASUS Z8PE-D12(ASMB4-IKVM) Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5520 Tylersburg SSI EEB 3.61 Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series w/ Remote Management Server Motherboard - $339

3 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x8 Link)
1 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x16 Link) (Auto switch to x8 Link if slot 5 is occupied)
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post #3090 of 7891 Old 06-10-2009, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

If Extended ATX is OK:

- TYAN S7012GM4NR Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5520 SSI EEB Dual Intel Xeon Processor 5500 Series Server Motherboard - Open Box price $315

1 x PCI-E x8 slot (w/ x4 link)
4 x PCI-E Gen.2 x8 slots

- Open Box: ASUS Z8PE-D12X(ASMB4-IKVM) Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5520 Tylersburg SSI EEB 3.61 Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series w/ Remote Management, PCI-X Server Motherboard - $353

3 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x8 Link)
1 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x16 Link) (Auto switch to x8 Link if slot 5 is occupied)
2 x PCI-X Slots (64-bit 133MHz)

Otherwise:

- Open Box: ASUS Z8PE-D12(ASMB4-IKVM) Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5520 Tylersburg SSI EEB 3.61 Dual Intel Xeon 5500 Series w/ Remote Management Server Motherboard - $339

3 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x8 Link)
1 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x16 Link) (Auto switch to x8 Link if slot 5 is occupied)

Which of the above would be your choice?
I dont mind buying a graphics card or using on board gaphics
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