Blocking of Hardware Audio signals by Microsoft/AMI - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 157 Old 12-21-2008, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I described earlier the experience of losing access to the PC's Hardware Audio signals like CD-IN and Composite Audio when switching from Windows XP to Windows Vista.

This OS switch disabled critical functionality used by TV Tuner cards like Dvico to allow usage of the Composite input from the Cable Set Top Box to the PC in order to allow encrypted signals which the user is paying for to be viewed on the PC, through the Composite Video 3 pin interface.

In addition, this problem prevented the audio being output to the PC Speakers being segregated into 2 preliminary input paths, Wave and CD-IN or Wave and Line-IN, which allowed these 2 paths to be audio-volume balanced, as would be the case in any living room between the TV and the Stereo Receiver.

I was forced to retreat back to a Windows XP installation to regain this Hardware Audio functionality.
At the time I thought this was just another Bug in Vista.

(As a side issue, I already mentioned the addiitional Vista Bug in the additional failure to implement the Ctrl-S sizing feature in the new SNDVOL.exe which was in the XP SNDVOL32.exe applet, which is even more necessary in the Vista applet version.)

However, I recently had occasion to upgrade my Asrock motherboard from the BIOS of a year ago to the current BIOS and encountered the identical symptoms.
I had to retreat back to an older motherboard BIOS version to regain this Hardware Audio functionality.


This sequence of events indicates that there is a clear policy being driven by Microsoft and their lackeys at AMI to block these Hardware Audio signals from the PC.

If Microsoft is responsible for this, the manager there responsible should be Fired.
I want to know if this is an announced policy, and if so, what is the reason for this ?
Aeneas is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 11:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
K-Spaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Without getting on a soap box,

Welcome to the wonderful world of MS software. If this is the first you've seen of their business plan, you've not been around very long...
K-Spaz is offline  
post #3 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 12:34 PM
Senior Member
 
CSMR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
CD-IN, that's been obsolete for a long long time.
IMO Microsoft should push the market more than it does to get rid of legacy hardware and move to new standards... CD audio headers, serial headers, parallel headers, vga, bios, all linger on while Apple is able to move forward more nimbly.

When it comes to secure channels, Vista has a lot of new technology there, content protection schemes, secure pathways.

Yes it's an inconvenience for you because you have a system that works, but technology has to move forwards.
CSMR is offline  
post #4 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSMR View Post

CD-IN, that's been obsolete for a long long time.
IMO Microsoft should push the market more than it does to get rid of legacy hardware and move to new standards... CD audio headers, serial headers, parallel headers, vga, bios, all linger on while Apple is able to move forward more nimbly.

When it comes to secure channels, Vista has a lot of new technology there, content protection schemes, secure pathways.

Yes it's an inconvenience for you because you have a system that works, but technology has to move forwards.

When you see a response like this, it is obvious you are hearing from someone who works Public Relations on forums like this and does not in any way represent the point of view of the User.

CD-IN and Composite Audio/Video are still critically important signals which must continue to be received by the Microsoft/Intel PC, for the reasons such as TV input which I have already detailed.
I do not see how the PC industry can move forward faster by removing existing and critically important functionality.

The bottom line is that the Cable companies will continue to pump analog NTSC signals through the cable for years, along with the newer digital ATSC signals (which are encrypted and require the Cable Set Top Box or CableCard/OCUR external USB device to watch). That means that the analog tuner within the PC TV Tuner card can easily tune to these analog NTSC signals through user PC keyboard input or PC TV Tuner card software scheduler.

The PC TV Tuner card can tune to these signals directly with the raw Coax cable directly from the wall inlet. The same PC TV Tuner card can also receive the decrypted Cable Set Top Box which the user has used the Cable Set Top Box Remote to select (a much more difficult and tedious operation which cannot be controlled from the PC keyboard or PC software scheduler).
The Dvico card for instance allows the user to select in the Scheduler NTSC channels 2,3,4...125, or Composite, interchangeably.

It is a weird realization, but after now trying the competition PC Tuner software from Hauppauge, Avermedia and Asus (Arcsoft), it is clear that the Dvico is by far the best user interface.
And there are serious problems which remain with the Dvico software user interface.
However, if anything the TV Tuner software industry as a whole is declining, not improving.

It is completely unacceptable to take away working functionality and it should be considered outright Theft and Fraud to steal people's money who are buying the PC on the assumption that certain functionality is in the product when in fact the functionality has been secretly removed from the product.
Has Microsoft/AMI made any public statement about this removal of critical PC Hardware Audio Input functionality ?
Some prosecutors call this commercial conduct Bait and Switch...
Aeneas is offline  
post #5 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 02:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
xgecko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The truth is that most cable companies are steadily eliminating analog channels from their systems due to the significant bandwidth they can recover by going to digital signalling. See this article for more on this:

http://www.warws.com/documents/THEOT...GHTCOSTYOU.pdf

Thus your problems, while painful now, are only just beginning. I would seriously consider upgrading your hardware to use clear-QAM digital which will produce a superior experience anyway.

And like it or not legacy hardware can and does become deprecated and eventually obsolete. It is painful for some but a necessary part of the experience. Just imagine if phones were required to keep their rotary dials...

"But it's just a flesh wound!"
xgecko is offline  
post #6 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by xgecko View Post

The truth is that most cable companies are steadily eliminating analog channels from their systems due to the significant bandwidth they can recover by going to digital signalling. See this article for more on this:

http://www.warws.com/documents/THEOT...GHTCOSTYOU.pdf

Thus your problems, while painful now, are only just beginning. I would seriously consider upgrading your hardware to use clear-QAM digital which will produce a superior experience anyway.

And like it or not legacy hardware can and does become deprecated and eventually obsolete. It is painful for some but a necessary part of the experience. Just imagine if phones were required to keep their rotary dials...

Are you saying that you have heard or read somewhere that removing access to Hardware Audio signals from the PC is an intent of Microsoft and AMI ?

The Dvico FusionHDTV5 card has ClearQAM capability.
However that yields only around 8 TV channels (local must-carry and PBS primarily). On the other hand, NTSC channels 2-70 are available also for direct tuning by the ClearQAM capable card.

Nevertheless, removing access to functionality from the PC without notifying the customer should be considered a crime and should be prosecuted by state and federal prosecutors.
Otherwise, we might as well legalize Bait And Switch.
Aeneas is offline  
post #7 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 03:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked: 154
I must be a masochist or something....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

CD-IN and Composite Audio/Video are still critically important signals...

I wonder how have I been getting along without a CD IN for the past 5 years then.... And I wonder how my TV tuners without internal audio connectors produce files with sound then.... I guess I must just be hearing things....

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #8 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I must be a masochist or something....
I wonder how have I been getting along without a CD IN for the past 5 years then.... And I wonder how my TV tuners without internal audio connectors produce files with sound then.... I guess I must just be hearing things....

To continue defending the malperforming PC TV industry, that is masochism.
Unless this is well paid public relations work...

I have described in detail the continued importance of these Hardware Audio signals such as CD-IN (Dvico), Line-IN (ATI), and Composite Audio/Video (output by most Cable Set Top Boxes) in the PC TV Tuner capability.

It seems that maybe Microsoft realized the importance of Relative Volume balancing in Vista and now has modified the audio in Vista to allow a slider bar in SNDVOL.exe for each application which generates audio.
Perhaps they believe that by removing these hardware audio signals from Windows XP, they can stampede users from XP to Vista and make huge amounts of money on customers being forced to buy the newer OS.

There is one problem: Bait and Switch is illegal and it is also illegal to remove functionality which the user has already paid for, out from under him,
all without the customer being notified or any broad public statement of this intent.
Aeneas is offline  
post #9 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 05:06 PM
Senior Member
 
CSMR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

CD-IN and Composite Audio/Video are still critically important signals which must continue to be received by the Microsoft/Intel PC, for the reasons such as TV input which I have already detailed.

I'm not against the audio line in or in favour of prohibiting composite inputs. Almost all computers come with analog audio line in. Composite video input has more specialized application and you will need a dedicated card.

They shouldn't get special status (remember the confusing CD audio part of the Win98 volume panel? - yes the CD audio header was already obsolete back then) or be used as a standard means of communication between computer components. Computer components are connected digitally to the motherboard and don't need special analog channels to communicate. However it's certainly proper to receive analog input from external sources and there is a market for these and you can buy the necessary hardware.
CSMR is offline  
post #10 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 05:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ChrisL01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Personally, I see something like this as a possible bug because of the lack of testers for such a senerio.

You might try e-mail Larry Osterman via his blog and see if he has any insight. If he doesn't know, I doubt anyone at Microsoft does.
http://blogs.msdn.com/larryosterman/default.aspx

Chris
ChrisL01 is offline  
post #11 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 05:27 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

To continue defending the malperforming PC TV industry, that is masochism.
Unless this is well paid public relations work...

Yup, as I thought, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a paid PR person.

Quote:


I have described in detail the continued importance of these Hardware Audio signals such as CD-IN (Dvico), Line-IN (ATI), and Composite Audio/Video (output by most Cable Set Top Boxes) in the PC TV Tuner capability.

You can describe it in detail all you want, if nobody else cares you're SOL. I could describe the importance of Blu-ray being unencrypted til I'm blue in the face but it won't make any difference. The world moves on whether you like it or not.

Quote:


Perhaps they believe that by removing these hardware audio signals from Windows XP, they can stampede users from XP to Vista and make huge amounts of money on customers being forced to buy the newer OS.

MS doesn't make squat of users, they make almost all their money from OEMs like Dell.

Quote:


There is one problem: Bait and Switch is illegal and it is also illegal to remove functionality which the user has already paid for, out from under him,
all without the customer being notified or any broad public statement of this intent.

You didn't pay for Vista to have the functionality you claim was removed.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #12 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSMR View Post

I'm not against the audio line in or in favour of prohibiting composite inputs. Almost all computers come with analog audio line in. Composite video input has more specialized application and you will need a dedicated card.

They shouldn't get special status (remember the confusing CD audio part of the Win98 volume panel? - yes the CD audio header was already obsolete back then) or be used as a standard means of communication between computer components. Computer components are connected digitally to the motherboard and don't need special analog channels to communicate. However it's certainly proper to receive analog input from external sources and there is a market for these and you can buy the necessary hardware.

Ultimately these signals just represent a variety of routes through which users who buy their own PC can route audio from external equipment into the audio mixer chip of the PC.
And I have not heard of an audio mixer chip which did not maintain the multiple hardware routes to mix signals into the audio.
The fact that CD-IN originated as a signal routed from the CD reader device does not mean that must be the continued external device (external to the motherboard) for which this signal continues to be used.

For instance, the ATI TV Tuner card used Line-IN, the Dvico card used CD-IN, and thus both could co-exist in the same PC and allow the volume of each to be balanced with individual sliders in SNDVOL32.exe . Otherwise, all audio is lumped in together in the Wave input to the PC audio mixer with no ability in Windows XP to volume balance them individually.
Aeneas is offline  
post #13 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Yup, as I thought, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a paid PR person.
You can describe it in detail all you want, if nobody else cares you're SOL. I could describe the importance of Blu-ray being unencrypted til I'm blue in the face but it won't make any difference. The world moves on whether you like it or not.
MS doesn't make squat of users, they make almost all their money from OEMs like Dell.
You didn't pay for Vista to have the functionality you claim was removed.

It is interesting you mention that, because when I looked at the existing active thread names in this section for this round of commentary, the only one I thought I might read was one which claimed his wife was questioning why he wanted to buy a Blu-Ray reader or burner.

I myself was in that dilemma of not having a good reason to justify that purchase recently, especially with the price of 1.5TB disk drives at $129 as a storage medium.
I had to research and buy a single Blu-Ray movie outright before I could justify it to myself.

I absolutely did expect Vista to support my Hardware Audio and that is the first device I tested with Vista. When it failed I switched back immediately to Windows XP.
Aeneas is offline  
post #14 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 07:16 PM
Senior Member
 
CSMR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

For instance, the ATI TV Tuner card used Line-IN, the Dvico card used CD-IN, and thus both could co-exist in the same PC and allow the volume of each to be balanced with individual sliders in SNDVOL32.exe

Possibly some ATI cards had that as an option but I am sure not for a long time and I am sure it wasn't necessary to use, just an extra option for the user for whatever reason.
Quote:


Otherwise, all audio is lumped in together in the Wave input to the PC audio mixer with no ability in Windows XP to volume balance them individually.

XP had a really bad audio stack in many ways. Anyway XP is not the current OS and I thought you were complaining about Vista not XP. I do think that Vista's audio controls are disappointingly basic (no audio routing or directx/vst plugin capability) but a simple task like volume controlling different line-ins will be fine.
CSMR is offline  
post #15 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSMR View Post

Possibly some ATI cards had that as an option but I am sure not for a long time and I am sure it wasn't necessary to use, just an extra option for the user for whatever reason.

XP had a really bad audio stack in many ways. Anyway XP is not the current OS and I thought you were complaining about Vista not XP. I do think that Vista's audio controls are disappointingly basic (no audio routing or directx/vst plugin capability) but a simple task like volume controlling different line-ins will be fine.

It has never been an option for any Real User of PC TV Tuner cards to use WAVE as the route for Audio. There is no way to volume control the Wave route through a single applet, like SNDVOL32.exe, without breaking out Tuner card volume into a separate slider bar such as Line-IN, CD-IN, AUX, MIC etc.

The only reason you may not be aware of this is that none of the people who claim to be users here on forums like this actually use these products. Most of these people are advertising/sales/PR workers who go home to a real TV and their only exposure to PC TV is what they read in the glossy brochures of these products.

I doubt that 99% of the users of the PC would know what Audio Routing or VST Plugin's are, or would ever have any use for them.
Aeneas is offline  
post #16 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 08:07 PM
Senior Member
 
CSMR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

It has never been an option for any Real User of PC TV Tuner cards to use WAVE as the route for Audio. There is no way to volume control the Wave route through a single applet, like SNDVOL32.exe, without breaking out Tuner card volume into a separate slider bar

That's basically what Vista volume control does. You volume control one of your line-ins. (That is if you are using the inferior and needlessly complex route of tuner analog out to pc line in to OS.) You can also volume control your tv viewing application (preferable).
Quote:


such as Line-IN, CD-IN, AUX, MIC etc.

Win95 doesn't set the standard for what a computer is.
Quote:


I doubt that 99% of the users of the PC would know what Audio Routing or VST Plugin's are, or would ever have any use for them.

Well they did go to the trouble of doing digital room correction; with a plugin they wouldn't even have needed to write it themselves. And they go to the trouble of doing DSP at the application level (WMP). And they did design waveRT hoping to please the pro audio community. But this is another subject.
CSMR is offline  
post #17 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 08:36 PM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Wait, are you saying that BIOS makers are in cahoots with Microsoft to make Vista a bad experience?

Who do I blame for the removal of the IBM-PC keyboard connector from my PC? Is that Microsoft and AMI also?
cybrsage is offline  
post #18 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSMR View Post

That's basically what Vista volume control does. You volume control one of your line-ins. (That is if you are using the inferior and needlessly complex route of tuner analog out to pc line in to OS.) You can also volume control your tv viewing application (preferable).

Win95 doesn't set the standard for what a computer is.

Well they did go to the trouble of doing digital room correction; with a plugin they wouldn't even have needed to write it themselves. And they go to the trouble of doing DSP at the application level (WMP). And they did design waveRT hoping to please the pro audio community. But this is another subject.

As I already stated, I have seen what Vista does and it interferes with the operation of CD-IN and Composite-Audio (those are the only ones I checked) which Dvico's own software uses to perform 2 key functions, volume control and receiving the decrypted ATSC signal from the Cable Set Top Box.

The standard HD audio chips in the PC continue to maintain the multiple external Hardware Audio inputs to the mixer. CD-IN, Line-IN, MIC etc.
However, the Windows Vista kernel also goes out of its way to block access to the Composite Audio, which is not fed directly into the mixer chip.
There is clear intent and malice here, to block these Hardware Audio signals.
Aeneas is offline  
post #19 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 08:42 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked: 154
And who's idea was it to get rid of ISA? I've still got some ISA cards that I can't use anymore, I payed for them, it's a crime those ports were removed. I can't use my SCSI Zip drive anymore.

And what about those old IDE hard drives I've got that won't work with my new SATA motherboard


See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #20 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Wait, are you saying that BIOS makers are in cahoots with Microsoft to make Vista a bad experience?

Who do I blame for the removal of the IBM-PC keyboard connector from my PC? Is that Microsoft and AMI also?

Are you saying the newest motherboards no longer have PS/2 connectors for the keyboard and mouse ?
I bought my current motherboard about 8 months ago and the PS/2 connectors are still there.

I wonder if the music business was involved in this. It is noticeable that Composite Video was not interfered with by Vista or the newest AMI BIOS.
Aeneas is offline  
post #21 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 08:50 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Are you saying the newest motherboards no longer have PS/2 connectors for the keyboard and mouse ?

Yes, nor do they have floppy ports. And far too long overdue IMO.

Quote:


I wonder if the music business was involved in this.

Why, you can pull the data right off the CD digitally. Just like audio can be transferred over the PCI/PCIe bus without the need for special cables/connectors on the soundcard/motherboard.

CD/Aux in on soundcards have been obsolete for probably 5 years easy.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #22 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

And who's idea was it to get rid of ISA? I've still got some ISA cards that I can't use anymore, I payed for them, it's a crime those ports were removed. I can't use my SCSI Zip drive anymore.

And what about those old IDE hard drives I've got that won't work with my new SATA motherboard

Everyone was notified that ISA Bus was being phased out. And even then, that was a very gradual progression, motherboard by motherboard, over several years.

SCSI Zip drives were never very popular.
On the other hand, practically everyone watches TV.
The PC TV has assumed the role of the TV and PC Monitor (at least the bottom right corner of it) is the new TV screen.
Thus by definition, the functionality I am talking about could never be considered fringe, like most of what is discussed on forums like this by advertising/sales/PR operatives.
Aeneas is offline  
post #23 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 08:59 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

Everyone was notified that ISA Bus was being phased out. And even then, that was a very gradual progression, motherboard by motherboard, over several years.

Maybe I didn't get that memo. Just like you apparently didn't get the memo that PS/2 is being phased out.

Quote:


SCSI Zip drives were never very popular.

So what, I had one, apparently that's all that matters.

Quote:


On the other hand, practically everyone watches TV.

Not on a PC.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #24 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Yes, nor do they have floppy ports. And far too long overdue IMO.
Why, you can pull the data right off the CD digitally. Just like audio can be transferred over the PCI/PCIe bus without the need for special cables/connectors on the soundcard/motherboard.

CD/Aux in on soundcards have been obsolete for probably 5 years easy.

Wrong. The motherboard I bought 8 months ago has all those connectors on it. Floppy Disk and the CD-IN connector on the motherboard.
Aeneas is offline  
post #25 of 157 Old 12-22-2008, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Maybe I didn't get that memo. Just like you apparently didn't get the memo that PS/2 is being phased out.
So what, I had one, apparently that's all that matters.
Not on a PC.

Wrong. My 8 month old motherboard has all PS/2 mouse and keyboard connectors.
In addition, the Soundblaster does continue to maintain the CD-IN in products like X-FI XTtreme Audio, which is still on their roster.

In fact, here is how Creative at www.creative.com describes it:
"5. Aux In connector Connect an analog CD cable (available separately) from the analog output on an audio device like a TV tuner to this connector."
Aeneas is offline  
post #26 of 157 Old 12-23-2008, 03:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
vladd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

As I already stated, I have seen what Vista does and it interferes with the operation of CD-IN and Composite-Audio (those are the only ones I checked) which Dvico's own software uses to perform 2 key functions, volume control and receiving the decrypted ATSC signal from the Cable Set Top Box.

The standard HD audio chips in the PC continue to maintain the multiple external Hardware Audio inputs to the mixer. CD-IN, Line-IN, MIC etc.
However, the Windows Vista kernel also goes out of its way to block access to the Composite Audio, which is not fed directly into the mixer chip.
There is clear intent and malice here, to block these Hardware Audio signals.

The composite audio input on other tuner cards (like those made by Hauppauge, Vistaview, etc) work just fine with Vista. Likewise, I have no trouble using my auxilliary inputs on my soundcard. Sounds more like Dvico or your soundcard manufacturer needs to update their drivers/software. Microsoft has it's faults but this is not one of them.



As for CD-IN, I quit using that with Windows 95, not too long after I quit using an AT keyboard.
LL
vladd is offline  
post #27 of 157 Old 12-23-2008, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

The composite audio input on other tuner cards (like those made by Hauppauge, Vistaview, etc) work just fine with Vista. Likewise, I have no trouble using my auxilliary inputs on my soundcard. Sounds more like Dvico or your soundcard manufacturer needs to update their drivers/software. Microsoft has it's faults but this is not one of them.

As for CD-IN, I quit using that with Windows 95, not too long after I quit using an AT keyboard.

After encountering this Hardware Audio blockage by Microsoft Vista 8 months ago I did discover that particular menu buried under the Control Panel I believe it was.
Note this menu is separate from the normal volume control applet SNDVOL.exe, which it is clear is a big change in Vista over XP's SNDVOL32.exe.
(That is, there is clearly a lot of work Microsoft did in this area, and thus what this code does and does not do is no Microsoft developer accident of omission).

That menu, not the normal volume control applet SNDVOL.exe which I have been discussing, was necessary to even change the audio level in Live viewing.
However, as I stated, when TV was recorded and played back which had Composite Audio as the audio source, the recorded content file contained No Audio.

This is how I described the problem on 10-29-08, 12:08 PM:
"There were serious problems receiving and Recording the audio from that STB input in Vista Ultimate about 6 months ago, so I abandoned it and went back to Window XP SP2, now SP3)."

The Microsoft manager responsible for this failure should be Fired.
Aeneas is offline  
post #28 of 157 Old 12-23-2008, 06:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jimwhite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Saint Petersburg, FL USA
Posts: 5,372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Composite Audio

maybe you also need to clear up the terms you are using and looking for... no matter where you look, you'll not find anything labled composite audio... it doesn't exist...


Jim White
St. Petersburg, FL
jimwhite is offline  
post #29 of 157 Old 12-23-2008, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Aeneas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

maybe you also need to clear up the terms you are using and looking for... no matter where you look, you'll not find anything labled composite audio... it doesn't exist...

Composite is the 3 pin interface which comprises 1 video pin and 2 audio pins.
The term Composite Audio refrs explicitly to the 2 audio pins in this pinout.
Composite Video refers to the 1 video pin in this pinout.
Strictly speaking, the term refers to the Video pin only, but that is not the reality pinout one encounters in consumer electronics products. Usally this trio of pins are found and implied.

Component Video uses 3 pins for the video, and is itself usually paired off with the 2 audio pins (left and right), for a total of 5 pins.
Aeneas is offline  
post #30 of 157 Old 12-23-2008, 08:33 AM
Senior Member
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Belgium
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeneas View Post

I described earlier the experience of losing access to the PC's Hardware Audio signals like CD-IN and Composite Audio when switching from Windows XP to Windows Vista.

This OS switch disabled critical functionality used by TV Tuner cards like Dvico to allow usage of the Composite input from the Cable Set Top Box to the PC in order to allow encrypted signals which the user is paying for to be viewed on the PC, through the Composite Video 3 pin interface.

In addition, this problem prevented the audio being output to the PC Speakers being segregated into 2 preliminary input paths, Wave and CD-IN or Wave and Line-IN, which allowed these 2 paths to be audio-volume balanced, as would be the case in any living room between the TV and the Stereo Receiver.

I was forced to retreat back to a Windows XP installation to regain this Hardware Audio functionality.
At the time I thought this was just another Bug in Vista.

(As a side issue, I already mentioned the addiitional Vista Bug in the additional failure to implement the Ctrl-S sizing feature in the new SNDVOL.exe which was in the XP SNDVOL32.exe applet, which is even more necessary in the Vista applet version.)

However, I recently had occasion to upgrade my Asrock motherboard from the BIOS of a year ago to the current BIOS and encountered the identical symptoms.
I had to retreat back to an older motherboard BIOS version to regain this Hardware Audio functionality.


This sequence of events indicates that there is a clear policy being driven by Microsoft and their lackeys at AMI to block these Hardware Audio signals from the PC.

If Microsoft is responsible for this, the manager there responsible should be Fired.
I want to know if this is an announced policy, and if so, what is the reason for this ?

Something is not clear in the description of your problem: what are you connecting your TV tuner audio output to? Is it to the tuner card's analog audio input or to the motherboard's analog audio input? Could you please link to the thread where you "describe your experience"?

Anyway, in both cases your problem is probably not caused by Vista or some AMI/Microsoft conspiracy, but by the drivers of your tuner card, the drivers of your motherboard integrated audio or some bug in the BIOS part related to the motherboard integrated audio.

There is no way Microsoft even could disable analog audio in your tuner as it's managed in the same way when it's on a tuner card as when it's on a sound card. It's just another Line In from the point of view of the OS.
el Filou is offline  
Closed Thread Home Theater Computers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off