"Official" PowerDVD Ultra 9 Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by xgecko View Post

Now we are fully in agreement with one minor point of inaccuracy; I am pretty darn certain that TMT has also been downrezzing the LPCM - reading of the TMT threads strongly supports this and the licensing requirements apply to them as well. So aside from that we are on the same page and I have to say that your experience with Cyberlink is one reason I am very reluctant to give them any of my money (Cyberlink folks, are you listening? I somehow doubt it... )

Actually, up until build 125, TMT wasn't downsampling at all. Unfortunately all builds since then are.

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Amen to that, bro. Were it not for the excreble AACS licensing requirements (which we all know are highly effective and prevent anyone from copying a BR disk ) we would be enjoying the full sound quality we paid for in the first place...

Yes, I agree completely. It's too bad HTPC's are so restricted and limited. By now we should have HTPC's that are fully capable of all BD has to offer. Instead we get half solutions at best, and completely broken software as a normal situation. It's no wonder the hardware player people laugh at us HTPC owners. sigh.
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post #272 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MKANET View Post

Yeah, I agree PowerDVD has definitely gone downhill. I probably would use PowerdVD 7 with the latest patch available for it or PowerDVD 8 with the Reloaded addon to get the most working and useful features with the least unecessary bloat.

Frighteningly PowerDVD 7 is the best of the bunch so far. When TMT gives me issues (very rare) that's what I fall back to. I no longer have 8 installed and 9 is such a horrible joke right now that it's unusable on my system until they fix the audio bug. And even then, it's not great. At least with TMT we can get 48/24 over HDMI. With PowerDVD, even when it's working, we get 48/16. Not ideal by any means. This is why I'm starting to consider the bitstreaming option. If only because they can't downsample and otherwise molest the audio when you bitstream.
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post #273 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 11:11 AM
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Off-topic, pointless, bickering posts removed. I hope I got all of them. If the HD-DVD/Blu-ray bickering starts up again I will close this thread.

The ball is in your court.
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post #274 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 11:27 AM
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Since the cleanup my valid question was removed which is ok. I'll reask it.

Has anyone received a USEFUL response from Cyberlink regarding the audio issues we're having with PowerDVD 9? The response I got was less than useful. They simply wanted me to troubleshoot my machine which I know is working since I have no issues with LPCM over HDMI using TMT and PDVD 7. I don't get the feeling that they're taking this issue seriously and working on fixing it. This is disappointing.
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post #275 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

This is why I'm starting to consider the bitstreaming option. If only because they can't downsample and otherwise molest the audio when you bitstream.

Yeah, but they can just fail to get it to work instead! If and when they get PAP going, I think they will be able to do LPCM without downmixing before they get reliable bitstreaming. Of course they may get neither! (but it will be fixed in PDVD10)
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post #276 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

Yeah, but they can just fail to get it to work instead! If and when they get PAP going, I think they will be able to do LPCM without downmixing before they get reliable bitstreaming. Of course they may get neither! (but it will be fixed in PDVD10)

Don't make me cry. I was thinking bitstreaming would bypass the horrible state of software decoding (which there is NO excuse for) that we have now. We know that TMT can bitstream with the Xonar. Auzentech has failed to release their card time and again so I can't bring myself to wait for that. My big concern is simply about using an OEM version of TMT that's tied to the Xonar. But, if these idiotic software decoding problems aren't fixed soon I'm either going with a hardware player or I MAY consider the Xonar solution. Kind of depressing tbh.
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post #277 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 12:07 PM
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During the endless bickering wars that were just removed someone mentioned that PDVD still supports DVD-A. While I do not have any interest in another such war, I am curious to know if this is indeed true. Does anyone know if PDVD9 does support this format?

I am fine if it does not; having only a small number of such disks I have avoided the format largely because I don't find any difference in stereo quality and there are no current HTPC software players that will play them. On the other hand were I to be able to play these disks and were I to feel comfortable with PDVD9 (not much chance of that right now! ) then I might consider purchasing it. I have found some of the multi-channel mixes are quite interesting but I have no way to play them.

Oh, I should mention, I only care if it can output untouched multichannel via HDMI. Don't care if it is bitstreamed or LPCM.

Thanks!

Edit: Just noticed this when I went to download trial. Makes me even more curious! Perhaps the full version will play back CPPM content?

"No DVD-Audio available during the playback of CPPM protected content"

"But it's just a flesh wound!"
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post #278 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by xgecko View Post

During the endless bickering wars that were just removed someone mentioned that PDVD still supports DVD-A. While I do not have any interest in another such war, I am curious to know if this is indeed true. Does anyone know if PDVD9 does support this format?

PDVD 7 and 8 support it, including CPPM encrypted discs. I'm not entirely sure about PDVD 9 though. According to the product comparison matrix, an additional "advanced audio pack" is now needed to add MLP decoding capability, so DVD-A might not work on 9 without that pack. Perhaps an owner can confirm?
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Oh, I should mention, I only care if it can output untouched multichannel via HDMI. Don't care if it is bitstreamed or LPCM.

CPPM encrypted discs are downsampled if no PAP is available, just like on Blu-ray.
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post #279 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Has anyone received a USEFUL response from Cyberlink regarding the audio issues we're having with PowerDVD 9? The response I got was less than useful. They simply wanted me to troubleshoot my machine which I know is working since I have no issues with LPCM over HDMI using TMT and PDVD 7. I don't get the feeling that they're taking this issue seriously and working on fixing it. This is disappointing.

same here

maybe they are aware of the problem and trying to fix it (wishfull thinking...)
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post #280 of 2862 Old 03-13-2009, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by spcav View Post

same here

maybe they are aware of the problem and trying to fix it (wishfull thinking...)

I'm not holding out much hope. What a waste.
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post #281 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Since the cleanup my valid question was removed which is ok. I'll reask it.

Has anyone received a USEFUL response from Cyberlink regarding the audio issues we're having with PowerDVD 9? The response I got was less than useful. They simply wanted me to troubleshoot my machine which I know is working since I have no issues with LPCM over HDMI using TMT and PDVD 7. I don't get the feeling that they're taking this issue seriously and working on fixing it. This is disappointing.

Nope. They shot me a link that said I have to have the right graphics card installed and other useless stuff.

Affable Nitwit
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post #282 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Actually, up until build 125, TMT wasn't downsampling at all. Unfortunately all builds since then are.

How can you prove that TMT wasn't down sampling and then upsampling again? Even with reclock it wouldn't know if the player had double sampled it.
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post #283 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Nope. They shot me a link that said I have to have the right graphics card installed and other useless stuff.

Awesome. Then I guess this problem doesn't seem to be getting worked on and their player will remain absolutely useless. That was money well spent.
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post #284 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post

How can you prove that TMT wasn't down sampling and then upsampling again? Even with reclock it wouldn't know if the player had double sampled it.

That would be truly silly for them to be "double sampling" don't you think? You really think they would downsample and then resample it back? I find that to be POSSIBLE, but, highly unlikely. No, reclock shows that it was not downsampling until 126. After that it is doing so.

There's nothing ArcSoft can do about it. They're being forced to do so in order to keep their AACS license. The same goes for Cyberlink. As much as I want to hate both companies for it, we really can't blame them. I really am starting to feel that the only true solution to HD audio on the PC is to get one of these specialized cards with PAP drivers and go the bitstreaming route. At least until Slysoft releases their player. Otherwise we are at the mercy of the software decoders and any manipulations they feel are necessary. At least with bitstreaming there's little chance for them to screw with the audio.

I'm truly FRUSTRATED with the current state of HD audio on the PC.
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post #285 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 11:40 AM
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For some reason I can't get PDVD 9 to autoplay in Vista Media Center when I insert a Blu-ray disc.

All that happens is that VMC complains there is no BD player installed.

Is this supposed to work? To me autoplay is important since I have cleaned out the VMC menus and I don't have (and don't want) the PowerDVD tile in there.

And yes, I have PDVD set as autoplay application for BDs in the Control Panel.

thanks

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post #286 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 02:38 PM
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Im using Panasonic BD35 to send DTS HD Master and so on as bitstream to my receiver.

Right now listening to a blu-ray on my BD35. Trondheimsolistene DTS HD Master 24bit/192kHz 5.1. Nice sound, bitstreamed.

I also have a computer with blu-ray and HDMI from my ati 4850. I was wondering if I powerdvd still downsamples if you output analog? F example putting an asus xonar d2x in my computer to send an analog 5.1 singal to my receiver.

As far as i know there is no demands to downsample analog outputs? That would be stupid.

Then I could just use the analog outputs of f example a BD55 blu-ray player and input them into my computer for record.

What would be the point in downsampling the analog signal for PowerDVD?

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post #287 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 04:24 PM
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They do indeed downsample analog out. I guess they don't want people using it to record or something.
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post #288 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 04:43 PM
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Hi!

I try to use PowerDVD 9 for BluRay playback, because all other programs or versions of PowerDVD give me severe LipSync issues! Audio is mostly ahead of video to an extent where it is really disturbing. With PowerDVD 9, the problem still exists, but it's less severe and seems to go back in perfect sync from time to time (for a short period of time).

Unfortunately, PDVD9 gives me another problem: quite often, the video playback seems to get stuck! A few frames are repeated in an endless loop, the audio continues. This only seems to happen at chapter marks! The only way to fix it is to stop playback, restart it and then manually skip to the chapter mark. Then, the playback will continue normally. Moving the playback position back a bit, just before the chapter mark, will produce the same problem at exactly the same chapter mark position again. It doesn't seem to occur in all movies, but in many.

Does anybody have the same experience or does somebody know what the problem could be? I'd also like to know how I could finally fix the lipsync problems...

My specs are: ATI 4670, HDMI to receiver, latest Catalyst 9.2 and Realtek 2.18 drivers, Vista 32 bit, PDVD audio set to HDMI (LPCM or DTS/AC3 - doesn't make any difference (LPCM channel mapping is broken in PDVD9 however, but this is a known bug)).

Thanks!
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post #289 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

For some reason I can't get PDVD 9 to autoplay in Vista Media Center when I insert a Blu-ray disc.

All that happens is that VMC complains there is no BD player installed.

Is this supposed to work? To me autoplay is important since I have cleaned out the VMC menus and I don't have (and don't want) the PowerDVD tile in there.

And yes, I have PDVD set as autoplay application for BDs in the Control Panel.

thanks

politby

It auto plays just fine here, within Windows 7 Media Center.
PDVD is removed from MediaCenter Start Menu, auto play & play DVD works fine with BluRay.

alos: i have PDVD/BluRay and almost all autoplay settings disabled(we dont like the silly pop ups)
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post #290 of 2862 Old 03-14-2009, 06:49 PM
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Lol...

there still useing those silly ass White women in the skin splash screen...no offence.
I like white girls....

but not in a Bluray/DVD splash screen.
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post #291 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHoefler View Post

Hi!

I try to use PowerDVD 9 for BluRay playback, because all other programs or versions of PowerDVD give me severe LipSync issues! Audio is mostly ahead of video to an extent where it is really disturbing. With PowerDVD 9, the problem still exists, but it's less severe and seems to go back in perfect sync from time to time (for a short period of time).

Unfortunately, PDVD9 gives me another problem: quite often, the video playback seems to get stuck! A few frames are repeated in an endless loop, the audio continues. This only seems to happen at chapter marks! The only way to fix it is to stop playback, restart it and then manually skip to the chapter mark. Then, the playback will continue normally. Moving the playback position back a bit, just before the chapter mark, will produce the same problem at exactly the same chapter mark position again. It doesn't seem to occur in all movies, but in many.

Does anybody have the same experience or does somebody know what the problem could be? I'd also like to know how I could finally fix the lipsync problems...

My specs are: ATI 4670, HDMI to receiver, latest Catalyst 9.2 and Realtek 2.18 drivers, Vista 32 bit, PDVD audio set to HDMI (LPCM or DTS/AC3 - doesn't make any difference (LPCM channel mapping is broken in PDVD9 however, but this is a known bug)).

Thanks!

I have major lip sync issues at 24hz with any version of PDVD, but not with all blu-ray discs. My solution is to use reclock which works like a charm.

As for the chapter skipping, I find the latest build of PDVD8 and PDVD9 on one paticular disc, when skipping to chapter 2 begins in the complete wrong language before eventually finding the right track but being about 5 secs out of sync. Earlier builds did not do this.

I have also found lip sync issues to be lessened for PDVD9, and I am convinced that this proplem arises specifically because of downsampling. When jumping through a DTS-HD MA track, it always takes a few secs to register and in the info it initially shows as DTS only before settling on the DTS-HD track and by then it is out of sync. I also think the copy protection is a problem as my JFK blu-ray in the second half of the film has major lip sync issues which aren't there when using anydvd. Reclock needs a massive 700 ms buffer time to get this in sync!

Long story short, PDVD may be the lesser of the evils, but it still sucks.
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post #292 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

They do indeed downsample analog out. I guess they don't want people using it to record or something.

What would be the point in downsampling analog on a computer and not on a standalone blu-ray player? Can just record from the stand alone blu-ray player then.

This is getting silly. If there is no requirement to downsample analog audio they should just stop doing it.

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post #293 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by magnusr View Post

What would be the point in downsampling analog on a computer and not on a standalone blu-ray player? Can just record from the stand alone blu-ray player then.

The problem (in their minds) is the internal path from the CPU to the soundchip inside the computer. Using suitable software, the user could capture the sound digitally without any quality loss from the unprotected data path before it even reaches the soundchip. Recording analog outputs from a standalone, on the other hand, is lossy due to the D/A and A/D conversions. The purpose of PAP is exactly to protect the internal path.

Of course, given that the discs can currently be easily ripped, all this seems a bit silly and is just one more case where the honest customer is punished and pirates are rewarded ...
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post #294 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

There's nothing ArcSoft can do about it. They're being forced to do so in order to keep their AACS license. The same goes for Cyberlink. As much as I want to hate both companies for it, we really can't blame them.

Sure, but the AACS license doesn't matter, if there is no AACS on the disc.
There is no reason to downsample (and no excuse for doing this) if AnyDVD HD is running.
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post #295 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by wuffzack View Post

Sure, but the AACS license doesn't matter, if there is no AACS on the disc.
There is no reason to downsample (and no excuse for doing this) if AnyDVD HD is running.

I believe this has been a perennial bug (issue) that Cyberlink has promised to fix... and if you wait long enough there will be yet another new format and they can promise to fix bugs with that format in the hope you forgot this bug...

There is no good reason to downsample any non-AACS content yet both major players seem to do so. In fact, one could argue there is no point in downsampling any of it....

"But it's just a flesh wound!"
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post #296 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by wuffzack View Post

Sure, but the AACS license doesn't matter, if there is no AACS on the disc.
There is no reason to downsample (and no excuse for doing this) if AnyDVD HD is running.

The detailed measures that a vendor has to take to comply with the AACS license are to some extent at the AACSLA's discretion (and the compliance rules can be changed). Also, keep in mind that AACS is mandatory for pre-recorded BDs, so there are officially no BDs without AACS (there are some unencrypted HD DVDs though). It is really a bit surprising that PowerDVD is even allowed to play back unprotected BDs.
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post #297 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by magnusr View Post

What would be the point in downsampling analog on a computer and not on a standalone blu-ray player? Can just record from the stand alone blu-ray player then.

This is getting silly. If there is no requirement to downsample analog audio they should just stop doing it.

Believe me, I am in FULL agreement with you on this! I don't think they should be doing downsampling of ANY audio source period! Silly doesn't even begin to describe how absolutely stupid and asinine this situation is. But again, as much as I really want to blame Cyberlink and ArcSoft for this problem, we can't. It's truly not their fault. They are subjected to the whims of the industry else their AACS license would be revoked. Personally I'm ok with that happening as I think we'd have far better products in the end. However, they're not going to allow that because they'd lose an incredible amount of revenue. Anyway, yes, this situation IS ridiculous and DOES suck, but, nonetheless, they are doing it anyway.
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post #298 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wuffzack View Post

Sure, but the AACS license doesn't matter, if there is no AACS on the disc.
There is no reason to downsample (and no excuse for doing this) if AnyDVD HD is running.

I agree with this, too. We all assumed that would be the case back in the beginning...that if AACS were removed then the downsampling requirement, much like HDCP, would not be there. Unfortunately that is not the case and they are downsampling no matter what. Now I don't know if that's a choice Cyberlink and ArcSoft made or not, but, somehow I get the feeling the industry are pushing that, too.

What really sucks is that I believe this to be the root cause of all the audio bugs we're seeing in PDVD 9. (And yes, the poster above having lip sync issues, I agree, what you're suggesting is very likely) Once they start messing with the audio it seems they completely screw it up. ArcSoft is better at this, but, Cyberlink has REAL problems with this department. I have little hope of them fixing it at this point. It's truly depressing as the interface in PDVD 9 is actually kind of nice save for the moovie live crap they force upon us. I just want it fixed so I can see how it really compares to TMT.
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post #299 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigby Reardon View Post

The detailed measures that a vendor has to take to comply with the AACS license are to some extent at the AACSLA's discretion (and the compliance rules can be changed). Also, keep in mind that AACS is mandatory for pre-recorded BDs, so there are officially no BDs without AACS (there are some unencrypted HD DVDs though). It is really a bit surprising that PowerDVD is even allowed to play back unprotected BDs.

Well, what about user made content? That doesn't have any AACS on it and it'd be really stupid for them to disallow playback of user content. Some poor shmuck with an HD video camera can't burn his videos onto blank BD's to send to his mother for XMas? So while there's no commercial titles available without AACS, there is BD content available that doesn't have it. I think this is why it's allowed. However that hasn't stopped Cyberlink from attempting to squash the ISO playing crowd on multiple occasions. Their official policy is that PDVD doesn't support image playback.
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post #300 of 2862 Old 03-15-2009, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Well, what about user made content? That doesn't have any AACS on it and it'd be really stupid for them to disallow playback of user content. Some poor shmuck with an HD video camera can't burn his videos onto blank BD's to send to his mother for XMas? So while there's no commercial titles available without AACS, there is BD content available that doesn't have it.

Sure, but there's another disc type for user-recorded content. The playback software can of course detect this. Or do the "virtual drive" emulators that people are using to play back ripped images hide the true media type?
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I think this is why it's allowed.

Yep, that's probably the reason.
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