ATI Radeon HD 5800, 5700 and 5600 Series Thread: Supporting HD Audio Bitstreaming! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-02-2009, 08:23 AM
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I'm not sure if the results I'm getting with it are what's expected. I'm not getting bitstreamed audio, that's for sure. But I'm not sure what he's looking for in this test.
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Old 10-02-2009, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

I think Albain (ffdshow dev.) and James (ReClock dev.) will beat TMT and will be able to present a ffdshow/reclock combination with both new versions that will make bitstreaming possible, maybe even for the 4XXX-series!

I would not be so sure as PAP, by definition, implies no standards, meaning a proprietary feature in the drivers only disclosed to the PAP SW partner.

I'd be very - HAPPILY! - surprised if ATI let a "PAP hole" be opened in their drivers.

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Old 10-02-2009, 08:28 AM
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What if you bitstream and ignore PAP?
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Old 10-02-2009, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

I'm not sure if the results I'm getting with it are what's expected. I'm not getting bitstreamed audio, that's for sure. But I'm not sure what he's looking for in this test.

hmmm, too bad. well let s wait for beta9 then

Ill do some testing tonight btw.
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Old 10-02-2009, 08:30 AM
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Not sure if I'm doing something wrong on my end but I set it up like he said and I'm getting some screwy results.
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Old 10-02-2009, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Not sure if I'm doing something wrong on my end but I set it up like he said and I'm getting some screwy results.

how did you config everything exactly and what card do you use?
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Old 10-02-2009, 08:37 AM
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I used the configuration he told us in that thread, and I have a 5870. I can't get it to work at all with ReClock in step 1. In step 2 I'm seeing the TrueHD track info just fine, but, output is set to S/PDIF and I get no audio at all. DTS-HD MA is seen as a 1536 Dolby Digital track and outputs core DTS to my receiver. LOL
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

What if you bitstream and ignore PAP?

PAP -> bitstreaming (or PAP is the only way to bitstream).

If ATI has really implemented a PAP the only way to break it would be by gaining access to the particular proprietary functionality in the drivers/HW. This would include of course breaking in an encryption through a - also proprietary - "data bus" between the SW application and the drivers/HW. In two words, a "black box".

I'm really skeptical that it can be broken ... .

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Old 10-02-2009, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulli View Post

PAP -> bitstreaming (or PAP is the only way to bitstream).

If ATI has really implemented a PAP the only way to break it would be by gaining access to the particular proprietary functionality in the drivers/HW. This would include of course breaking in an encryption through a - also proprietary - "data bus" between the SW application and the drivers/HW. In two words, a "black box".

I'm really skeptical that it can be broken ... .

You of course are making an assumption that it can't be bypassed. LPCM, for example, can be sent without the need for PAP. It has been shown in the past that DTS, embedded in a wav file, for example, can be passed to a receiver and have it decode the DTS stream. The same type of approach is being taken here. They're trying multiple ways of embedding the raw TrueHD or DTS-HD MA track (AC3, PCM, etc) and passing it through to the receiver. So far it's not quite working, but, it's at least theoretically possible to do this.
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:22 AM
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Yes, but that's all through directshow, i.e. standard interfaces, nothing to do with a proprietary PAP implementation.

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Old 10-02-2009, 10:26 AM
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Right. But, what I'm saying is that bitstreaming and PAP are NOT tied to each other from a technical stand point. To do it "properly" you do need PAP support which is never going to happen in an open interface. (Kind of defeats the purpose, no?) So for TMT3 or PDVD9 to support bitstreaming, they need official support in order to use the PAP. What they're trying to do with ffdshow, not so much, but, in the end if you can get the stream to the receiver so that it can decode it then you've sent unmolested audio which is bitstreaming in my book.
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:39 AM
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Ok, but what I fail to see is "where" in that PAP black box you sneak in to get access to the native audio stream. You certainly won't have access to it through directshow (ffdshow). Or how?

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Old 10-02-2009, 10:48 AM
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To use PAP, you have to actively code for it. Again, LPCM can be sent without engaging PAP. I think you're under the mistaken belief that it's just "active" and watching what comes through. That'd be an incorrect assumption I think. It's simply a "requirement" that in order to be allowed to bitstream, *LICENSED* players are forced to use PAP. On a technical level, I don't think it's required to send data down the HDMI path. But again, if you couldn't send any data without PAP, NOTHING would play right now except for the non-released PDVD9. But we are able to use LPCM for many different things. Games, TMT3, etc. So, if he encodes a raw TrueHD or DTS-HD MA track inside PCM and sends that through, it should work assuming the receiver then recognizes it. Remember that PAP is only on the PC side of things. The receiver knows nothing about it at all nor does it care. Stand alone players bitstream without it just fine.
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:49 AM
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Oh, just so we're clear here, this will not work on encrypted streams. You'll need AnyDVD or whatever to decrypt it first before being able to bitstream. This is only to allow bitstreaming of unprotected sources. Maybe that's the confusion?
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

To use PAP, you have to actively code for it. Again, LPCM can be sent without engaging PAP. I think you're under the mistaken belief that it's just "active" and watching what comes through. That'd be an incorrect assumption I think. It's simply a "requirement" that in order to be allowed to bitstream, *LICENSED* players are forced to use PAP. On a technical level, I don't think it's required to send data down the HDMI path. But again, if you couldn't send any data without PAP, NOTHING would play right now except for the non-released PDVD9. But we are able to use LPCM for many different things. Games, TMT3, etc. So, if he encodes a raw TrueHD or DTS-HD MA track inside PCM and sends that through, it should work assuming the receiver then recognizes it. Remember that PAP is only on the PC side of things. The receiver knows nothing about it at all nor does it care. Stand alone players bitstream without it just fine.

Got it, thanks!

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Old 10-02-2009, 12:33 PM
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This article helped me some to understand PAP: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3411&p=2

So PAP is a AES 128bits encryption. Does this mean that each Blu Ray has its own key which PAP uses and is verified by the HDCP to come full circle?
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:38 PM
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No. What's happening is the software (TMT3, PDVD9, whatever) has to be written to be able to encrypt the content as soon as AACS decryption is done using a key that the GPU inherently knows. Think of it something like PGP where you encrypt a message with a person's public key and the receiver then decrypts it with their private key. So the player encrypts the content, and as soon as it hits the GPU it's decrypted and sent over HDMI to your receiver. At least, that's the theory. Why this is really needed is beyond me. It's a freaking sick joke if you ask me.
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

No. What's happening is the software (TMT3, PDVD9, whatever) has to be written to be able to encrypt the content as soon as AACS decryption is done using a key that the GPU inherently knows. Think of it something like PGP where you encrypt a message with a person's public key and the receiver then decrypts it with their private key. So the player encrypts the content, and as soon as it hits the GPU it's decrypted and sent over HDMI to your receiver. At least, that's the theory. Why this is really needed is beyond me. It's a freaking sick joke if you ask me.

You don't, what if someone sniff's the PCIe bus and before we know it there will be uncompressed hi-res version of the audio to the movie Free Willie floating around.

Can you imagine what torrent sites would do with 24b/96khz audio soundtracks. I'm not sure the movie industry could survive it.

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Old 10-02-2009, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You don't, what if someone sniff's the PCIe bus and before we know it there will be uncompressed hi-res version of the audio to the movie Free Willie floating around.

Can you imagine what torrent sites would do with 24b/96khz audio soundtracks. I'm not sure the movie industry could survive it.

I'm really hoping I'm catching the sarcasm here. Otherwise,

Yea, it just amazes me. It's ok to output 48/16 seemingly unprotected. But, 48/24 or heaven forbid 96/24, WOA there! Cause, you know, it's WAY too hard for someone to decrypt the disc and rip the unmolested content. Besides, if this was really such a huge issue, why not just keep the AACS protection as it's pass through the player and decrypt that on the GPU instead of creating yet another new standard? The industry just amazes me at times.
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:07 PM
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I'm not so sure that you need PAP to bitstream TrueHD and DTS MA in principle. Just for AACS content probably. That's what the IEC61937 option in ffdshow should do, no need to pack to PCM.
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:09 PM
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He's got a version that's trying to do that. I sent some debug info and he found an issue. So hopefully that gets fixed and maybe the next version we get a little further. The IEC header is being filled in correctly now, though, so, it's getting there. That was without ReClock in the picture.
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:20 PM
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Unfortunately that way, the "correct" way, I don't think is likely to work since it should require driver and maybe hardware support. Fake PCM has a better chance, IMO. Oh well, worth trying, maybe ATI will wise up and release a compatible driver. I also wonder what James has been machinating there in the Slysoft dungeon.
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:25 PM
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It seems plausible that it'll work this way. At least for anything that supports IEC. I'm sure he's going to continue working on it.
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

I'm not so sure that you need PAP to bitstream TrueHD and DTS MA in principle. Just for AACS content probably. That's what the IEC61937 option in ffdshow should do, no need to pack to PCM.

Yeah just like with PVP.

You need PVP to playback an AACS encrypted disc, but turn around and playback the m2ts stream from a decrypted disc and viola, no PVP. Both end up in the DXVA engine, just one also gets encrypted to the frame buffer, and the only other difference is that PVP will require HDCP on a digital output, but on output w/ HDCP they'd be identical.

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Old 10-02-2009, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Yeah just like with PVP.

You need PVP to playback an AACS encrypted disc, but turn around and playback the m2ts stream from a decrypted disc and viola, no PVP. Both end up in the DXVA engine, just one also gets encrypted to the frame buffer, and the only other difference is that PVP will require HDCP on a digital output, but on output w/ HDCP they'd be identical.

Yea, that was my thought, too. There shouldn't NEED to be any PAP from a technical stand point in order to bitstream. It's just required by the players to do so to play protected content. That's a licensing, not technical issue.
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Old 10-02-2009, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by griffy_nz View Post

Sony make great products...its just that its always on their terms

Go mini-disc
Gone SACD
the list goes on...
you get stung every now and then

You forgot Betamax

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Old 10-02-2009, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Yea, that was my thought, too. There shouldn't NEED to be any PAP from a technical stand point in order to bitstream. It's just required by the players to do so to play protected content. That's a licensing, not technical issue.

possibly.

It would also be possible for the driver engineer to keep the bitstreaming hook behind the PAP hook.


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Old 10-02-2009, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

possibly.

It would also be possible for the driver engineer to keep the bitstreaming hook behind the PAP hook.


We'll see. I don't think it works like that. People are treating PAP as some all powerful magic box. AFAIK, it's inactive unless it's specifically enabled by an application.
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Old 10-02-2009, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Yeah just like with PVP.

You need PVP to playback an AACS encrypted disc, but turn around and playback the m2ts stream from a decrypted disc and viola, no PVP. Both end up in the DXVA engine, just one also gets encrypted to the frame buffer, and the only other difference is that PVP will require HDCP on a digital output, but on output w/ HDCP they'd be identical.

That's a tricky analogy! DXVA is pretty much "open" functionality right now, that had been available for years before HD, whereas HD audio bitstreaming is being implemented proprietarily only recently by HW providers. And, additionally, DXVA is mostly irrelevant for BD playback with today CPUs, and even most of BDs are 24p.

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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Yea, that was my thought, too. There shouldn't NEED to be any PAP from a technical stand point in order to bitstream. It's just required by the players to do so to play protected content. That's a licensing, not technical issue.

Actually, if the HW provider keeps its solution proprietary, so that the HD audio bitstreaming functionality remains exclusive for its SW partners, PAP will be required to bitstream.

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