ATI Radeon HD 5800, 5700 and 5600 Series Thread: Supporting HD Audio Bitstreaming! - Page 187 - AVS Forum
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post #5581 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Yea, that'd rock. I'd like that setup myself. 7MC is awesome.

OT Rant Mode ON:
Quote:


7MCwould be awesome IF they would finally fix the issue (which has existed since the first Betas) of entering digital subchannel numbers with more than three digits! During channel scan 7MC consistently omits two of my broadcast channels. I can't add them because of the above bug!

OT Rant Mode OFF:

sorry....

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post #5582 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post

You say that what really matters is the result, but you haven't tested with Full RGB pixel format, so how can we compare? How can you say that YCbCr is better than RGB if you haven't compared them?

Btw, in the krps it's possible to bypass all TV post-processing. I have it that way indeed.

Fair enough. if you are bypassing all your TV post-processing it is probbaly safe to say you are getting only one conversion.

Yes I have tested full RGB. I'm amazed you've missed it in the many posts over recent days. I have ben round all the options endlessly. I am convinced PDVD Disc mode using YCbCr is cleanest, but given how messy this all is I full respect others reaching a different conclusion, either because their own environment really does difer or just because of subjective differences.
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post #5583 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:03 AM
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I get my best results using YCbCr 4:4:4: RGB at full DR/DC all checked and this gives me proper levels in 7MC MCP-HC, TMT are all the same. But the draw back is using DC it introduces vertical banding in SD and a little flickering in HD content.

Using these settings through my SC-07 I don't have to crank up the brightness in the TV or CCC as soon as I hit the DC switch AVSHD will read the blacks proper with CCC at default color settings. My TV can see the btb/wtw using this switch leaving my TV settings at 25 on brightness. Without the switch I have to crank the brightness levels to 50 and above. If they can address the noise levels with this switch I'd be all set.
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post #5584 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

OT Rant Mode ON:

OT Rant Mode OFF:

sorry....

Actually, that's quite true. I take it the rollup patch just released didn't address this? I don't have channels above 3 numbers so it doesn't affect me, but, I can definitely see where that would suck!
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post #5585 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:07 AM
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this thread has been a huge help and i have been able to get everything working the i wanted. except this morning i noticed my sub was working when playing files using ffdshow (sadly i dont know when it stopped because we keep it so low due to childs room on the other side of the sub). if i play a disk with tmt it kicks on and plays fine.

i tried messing with the audio settings but does anyone have an idea on a good way to fix this without creating more issues.

w7 64
newest ffdshow
ati 5750
realtek drivers
10.2 cats

sound is going hdmi into a 807.
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post #5586 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:09 AM
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Ok, ive made progress. in MPHC i can bitstream to my Onkyo 606 perfectly DTS-MA and TruHD.

in Power DVD 9 v2528 all I get is multichannel on the receiver. whats the problem withPDVD that i cant get it to do what MPHC does?

Thanks!!
Flan


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post #5587 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mflanagan View Post

Ok, ive made progress. in MPHC i can bitstream to my Onkyo 606 perfectly DTS-MA and TruHD.

in Power DVD 9 v2528 all I get is multichannel on the receiver. whats the problem withPDVD that i cant get it to do what MPHC does?

Thanks!!
Flan

Only one. *WHILE PLAYING A DISC* go to the PDVD audio properties and set it to non-decoded HD audio.
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post #5588 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

Fair enough. if you are bypassing all your TV post-processing it is probbaly safe to say you are getting only one conversion.

Yes I have tested full RGB. I'm amazed you've missed it in the many posts over recent days. I have ben round all the options endlessly. I am convinced PDVD Disc mode using YCbCr is cleanest, but given how messy this all is I full respect others reaching a different conclusion, either because their own environment really does difer or just because of subjective differences.

Well, I haven't tried PDVD Disc Mode, so it's possible you're right there.

But if the HTPC is only used for watching files, and you don't have to make any video post-process in an external video processor or the TV, then the best mode is Full RGB, IMHO.
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post #5589 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:24 AM
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OK a few things before you see the photos:

These were taken at the exact same exposure, manual white balance (so color differences you will see are there when viewing in person) and as you will notice, it's the lower half of the whole gradient (so banding will be exaggerated on purpose). This banding is not as noticeable watching directly, but it is noticeable nonetheless. You might wanna test in your own displays and check what you see.

In some instances, either Pixel Format or Dynamic Range in AVIVO don't do anything. These are indicated. The test is encoded in H.264, DXVA is used in all cases except with madVR.

My monitor's input was manually set the same as the Pixel Format setting.

TMT 3
TMT 3, YCbCr 4:4:4, DR Full

TMT 3, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Full

TMT 3, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Limited
MPC-HC
EVR-CP 8-bit
MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, YCbCr 4:4:4, DR Full

MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Full, DR Full

MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Limited, DR Full EVR-CP 10-bit
MPC-HC EVR-CP 10-bit, YCbCr 4:4:4, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC EVR-CP 10-bit, RGB Full, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC EVR-CP 10-bit, RGB Limited, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count) madVR
MPC-HC madVR, RGB Full, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC madVR, RGB Limited, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC madVR, YCbCr 4:4:4, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

Next is a comparison of expansion via DR Full vs. Desktop colors (they affect MPC-HC w/EVR). RGB Pixel Format also affects MPC-HC w/EVR. Of course when expanding with desktop colors, the rest of the desktop will be clipped.

First, this is for reference, it's what's being expanded:

MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Full, DR Limited

MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Full, DR Limited, Desktop Color: Brightness -35 & Contrast 130

Compare to:
MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Full, DR Full
WinDVD 2010

Notice these are pretty much identical to TMT 3.

WinDVD 2010, YCbCr 4:4:4, DR Full

WinDVD 2010, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Full

WinDVD 2010, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Limited
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post #5590 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:33 AM
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So, a few notes:

YCbCr seems to yield a bit greener darks, in MPC-HC with all EVR 8 and 10-bit, and madVR. This does not happen with TMT3 and WinDVD 2010.

TMT3 and WDVD 2010 output it pretty much identical.

In these circumstances, the least banding for me would occur if I used DR Limited and TMT3 or WDVD (possibly PowerDVD as well), and my monitor on 16-235 input. If I want to use MPC-HC, pixel format RGB Full and madVR, and 0-255 input would be the best solution.

The problem for me is that freaking MC (it's always MC). If I use DR Limited in AVIVO, I get over-compressed levels, cause pixel format also compresses MC. If I want to keep everything at optimum, I still have to use a hotkey w/profiles to switch between DR Full/Limited only to keep MC in check.
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post #5591 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimo View Post

I get my best results using YCbCr 4:4:4: RGB at full DR/DC all checked and this gives me proper levels in 7MC MCP-HC, TMT are all the same. But the draw back is using DC it introduces vertical banding in SD and a little flickering in HD content.

Using these settings through my SC-07 I don't have to crank up the brightness in the TV or CCC as soon as I hit the DC switch AVSHD will read the blacks proper with CCC at default color settings. My TV can see the btb/wtw using this switch leaving my TV settings at 25 on brightness. Without the switch I have to crank the brightness levels to 50 and above. If they can address the noise levels with this switch I'd be all set.

You know what dynamic contrast does, right? It changes contrast (overall brightness) dynamically, meaning that it will change depending on content. if there's one setting you should disable for calibration, is DC (unless you're referring to some other "DC"?).
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post #5592 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

I'm not sure why you say it's easier to process video in YUV, I would think at the most it should depend on what processing you're doing. I've never heard of any displays processing in YUV.

I'm not making any bold claims here, just that it is not only the PC drivers that are, in many ways, a black box to us. TV post-processing (which many cannot disable) is just as significant and even more opaque, and it would not be unreasonable to assume that best possible processing of YCbCr would be the priority, as the vast majority of HDMI and "over the air" sources will be delivering that.
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post #5593 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

You know what dynamic contrast does, right? It changes contrast (overall brightness) dynamically, meaning that it will change depending on content. if there's one setting you should disable for calibration, is DC (unless you're referring to some other "DC"?).

I think it's broken because usually your right this setting on TV's is a big no no, but I don't see it changing background lighting it always stays the same. But like I mentioned it introduces noise and banding in SD DVD's so I'm back to switching the stupid thing off.
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post #5594 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

So, a few notes:

The problem for me is that freaking MC (it's always MC). If I use DR Limited in AVIVO, I get over-compressed levels, cause pixel format also compresses MC. If I want to keep everything at optimum, I still have to use a hotkey w/profiles to switch between DR Full/Limited only to keep MC in check.

what about changing the TV output connection type in 7MC's setup to component video?

Jim White
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post #5595 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

I'm not making any bold claims here, just that it is not only the PC drivers that are, in many ways, a black box to us. TV post-processing (which many cannot disable) is just as significant and even more opaque, and it would not be unreasonable to assume that best possible processing of YCbCr would be the priority, as the vast majority of HDMI and "over the air" sources will be delivering that.

But that's a bit like saying TrueHD is easier to process "in TrueHD" in the receiver. In that case, the DSP and DACs work with LPCM, so first, decode to LPCM pass it through the DSP.

Similarly the DAC in most if not all color displays (esp. consumer ones) are RGB. It's easier that the video processor work in RGB for all color adjustments. The only advantage I see with processing in YCbCr would be luminance-only processing, but that's probably trivial too for RGB.

By the way, I'm not even sure that there are color video processors that work natively in YCbCr.
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post #5596 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

OK a few things before you see the photos:

These were taken at the exact same exposure, manual white balance (so color differences you will see are there when viewing in person) and as you will notice, it's the lower half of the whole gradient (so banding will be exaggerated on purpose). This banding is not as noticeable watching directly, but it is noticeable nonetheless. You might wanna test in your own displays and check what you see.

In some instances, either Pixel Format or Dynamic Range in AVIVO don't do anything. These are indicated.

My monitor's input was manually set the same as the Pixel Format setting.

TMT 3
TMT 3, YCbCr 4:4:4, DR Full

TMT 3, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Full

TMT 3, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Limited
MPC-HC
EVR-CP 8-bit
MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, YCbCr 4:4:4, DR Full

MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Full, DR Full

MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Limited, DR Full EVR-CP 10-bit
MPC-HC EVR-CP 10-bit, YCbCr 4:4:4, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC EVR-CP 10-bit, RGB Full, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC EVR-CP 10-bit, RGB Limited, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count) madVR
MPC-HC madVR, RGB Full, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC madVR, RGB Limited, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

MPC-HC madVR, YCbCr 4:4:4, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count)

Next is a comparison of expansion via DR Full vs. Desktop colors (they affect MPC-HC w/EVR). RGB Pixel Format also affects MPC-HC w/EVR. Of course when expanding with desktop colors, the rest of the desktop will be clipped.

First, this is for reference, it's what's being expanded:

MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Full, DR Limited

MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Full, DR Limited, Desktop Color: Brightness -35 & Contrast 130

Compare to:
MPC-HC EVR-CP 8-bit, RGB Full, DR Full
WinDVD 2010

Notice these are pretty much identical to TMT 3.

WinDVD 2010, YCbCr 4:4:4, DR Full

WinDVD 2010, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Full

WinDVD 2010, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Limited

Andy, sorry I'm lost, but why suddenly you start to test banding?
With MadVR or FFDshow or powerDVD, you shouldn't notice banding at all, am I right?
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post #5597 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:58 AM
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I use TMT for BluRay and Vista Media Center Player for eveything else, well of course black levels are totally different between the two. Can someone point me to files that I can play in TMT and VMC to check black levels in different settings?


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post #5598 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

Andy, sorry I'm lost, but why suddenly you start to test banding?
With MadVR or FFDshow or powerDVD, you shouldn't notice banding at all, am I right?

Why not?

madVR is great, you probably won't notice banding... do you notice it in those pics? With PowerDVD 9, I tested before and it was the same as with TMT3. Probably there's no banding noticeable if DR is set to limit. But I don't use TMT 3, PowerDVD or WinDVD for everything. I prefer to use MPC-HC for videos with no menus, etc.
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post #5599 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

what about changing the TV output connection type in 7MC's setup to component video?

I tried DVI and HDMI, I'll see if component makes a difference. Hell, I'll check everything. I don't know why they even ask those questions if they're not gonna be clear what they do. I hate being asked blind questions like that.
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post #5600 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

But that's a bit like saying TrueHD is easier to process "in TrueHD" in the receiver.

No its not, and you know it! You also know that almost all video starts out on a PC as YUV and almost always any conversion to to RGB is done as late in the processing chain as possible. But really all I am saying is it is not right to assume either is better just because of conversions we think might be happening and think must be lossy.

By objective comparison, here Disc mode with YCbCr PF seems top dog.
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post #5601 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 09:18 AM
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madVR on Limited Pixel Format has some banding compared to Full RGB. I think this is due to Pixel Format compression before being output to the display. Basically madVR feeds the card a "clean" gradient, and the PF compression mucks it up.
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post #5602 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

No its not, and you know it! You also know that almost all video starts out on a PC as YUV and almost always any conversion to to RGB is done as late in the processing chain as possible. But really all I am saying is it is not right to assume either is better just because of conversions we think might be happening and think must be lossy.

By objective comparison, here Disc mode with YCbCr PF seems top dog.

Why is it not? Some content is TrueHD (and other formats), and some is LPCM. They all have to end in LPCM. Some content is YCbCr, some is RGB, but they all have to end in RGB. So, either the display would have to have both YCC and RGB processors, or it would have to convert RGB signals to YCC, process, and then convert to RGB again to feed the DAC.

But in any case, do you know any YCC native video processors? I feel like both you and I are just making a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions, we should find out if those exist first.
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post #5603 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

Why is it not? Some content is TrueHD (and other formats), and some is LPCM. They all have to end in LPCM. Some content is YCbCr, some is RGB, but they all have to end in RGB. So, either the display would have to have both YCC and RGB processors, or it would have to convert RGB signals to YCC, process, and then convert to RGB again to feed the DAC.

But in any case, do you know any YCC native video processors? I feel like both you and I are just making a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions, we should find out if those exist first.

That's my point really. Not to make those assumptions but to say they are just as valid as yours. Better not to make either!

(Surely you do know your comparison does not hold water. TrueHD is a compression method and needs decompression to even get at the data. YCbCr is just a different way of representing the same information)
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post #5604 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 10:16 AM
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YCbCr is also a compression method. I think 4:4:4 is lossless, but 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 are not. RGB is like LPCM in that it's uncompressed, and inefficient.

BTW, if you "get at the data" without converting to RGB properly, this is what you get. It's pretty much if you "get at the data" of a TrueHD track and try to read it as LPCM, you get noise.

But the problem is that both our assumptions are not the same, even if "we don't really know". You're introducing an unnecessary processing pipeline, and one that may not even exist. We know RGB video processors exist. We know DACs on these displays are RGB. And we can be fairly sure it's the simpler and more cost-effective solution.
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post #5605 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

So, a few notes:

YCbCr seems to yield a bit greener darks, in MPC-HC with all EVR 8 and 10-bit, and madVR. This does not happen with TMT3 and WinDVD 2010.

TMT3 and WDVD 2010 output it pretty much identical.

In these circumstances, the least banding for me would occur if I used DR Limited and TMT3 or WDVD (possibly PowerDVD as well), and my monitor on 16-235 input. If I want to use MPC-HC, pixel format RGB Full and madVR, and 0-255 input would be the best solution.

The problem for me is that freaking MC (it's always MC). If I use DR Limited in AVIVO, I get over-compressed levels, cause pixel format also compresses MC. If I want to keep everything at optimum, I still have to use a hotkey w/profiles to switch between DR Full/Limited only to keep MC in check.

Have you installed the MC 0-255 registry fix?
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post #5606 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 10:40 AM
 
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Quote:
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Have you installed the MC 0-255 registry fix?

??
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post #5607 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 11:04 AM
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HKLM-->Software-->Add key: Debug-->Add key: ehPresenter.dll-->add 32bit dword "Nominal Range" - set value to 1
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post #5608 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 11:19 AM
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Doesn't work with DR checked, only when it's unchecked.
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post #5609 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 11:42 AM
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Andy, thanks for the pics.

The only other pics I would perhaps like to see are TMT3 photos with hardware acceleration off.

Thanks again.
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post #5610 of 7498 Old 02-27-2010, 11:43 AM
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Location: Louisville, KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Fascinating. I'll have to retract my previous statement about the tuner needing to support it then. I honestly thought the tuner had to know about the format in order for it to work. If not, my wife and I will both be happy as we both have Hauppauge tuners on our machines.

Yup, as long as the software is coded to recognise that it is a DD+ stream and map that elementary stream to an output pin on the demux, it's good to go. Windows 7 may map it automatically when connected to a tuner (Win7 demux can work in push mode -- pins are mapped automatically -- when connected to a BDA tuner/receiver filter). If your particular app maps the streams manually, they just have to add support for it. GB-PVR supports it on DVB-T (for Europe where it's already used) but I don't know about QAM. Hasn't been an issue so far.
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