Ion...what's the point? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 09-23-2009, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm curious how would an atom 330 ion rig compare to an Athlon X2 underclocked and undervolted with nvidia onboard GPU?
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post #2 of 26 Old 09-23-2009, 11:34 PM
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If you are using media that accepts hardware acceleration the benefits to the Ion should be obvious. It allows a low power consumption, quite, cheap processor (aka Atom). Personally, I have alot of media that doesn't work with hardware acceleration and like to visit flash sites like Hulu, so for me, an Athlon X2 or Core2Duo is a better way to go.
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post #3 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by redondoman View Post

If you are using media that accepts hardware acceleration the benefits to the Ion should be obvious. It allows a low power consumption, quite, cheap processor (aka Atom).

Nah, the Atom processor isn't really all that cheap. Besides, it's possible to get very low power consumption by underclocking Athlon X2s.

The advantage of the ION is in extremely small form factor builds. The Atom can withstand higher temperatures compared to desktop chips. Heat output is also lower.

Another thing, there's not really a wealth of Mini-ITX boards for desktop chips out there and from reports at SPCR, the ones that are available don't have very good (if any) underclocking options.

I find the ION to be a fairly acceptable compromise between a higher heat producing desktop Mini-ITX build and a very expensive mobile on desktop solution.
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post #4 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 06:59 AM
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I just read a long article about atom. It was suggested to me to try in a build. The problem is that its meant for hand held devices and things like that. It has no power which is good and bad. No power = no heat but it also has no processing power. I am really glad I didnt get it. I have read horrible issues about it. The processer just cant keep up. I am sure that in a year or 2 it will be different but for now I would stay away.
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post #5 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 07:55 AM
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I'm finding the atom boards being almost identical in price when comparing to an amd-motherboard / cpu / psu combo purchase so I don't see the price argument here.

Now as far as power consumption goes I'd like to see your numbers. I've seen the zotac atom board playing 1080p h264 perfectly drawing about 30w from the wall, and <45w at 100% load. Although for intents and purposes the x2 can give a similar bang for the watt because it is more powerful albeit more power hungry. But that depends on what you intend to do with the machine.

You said it yourself the amd rig would be more heat. More heat = more power consumption.

I have been running a truely expensive mobile on desktop solution for 4 years. An aopen i915 board with a pentium-m 965. It currently houses a geforce 8400gs, a dual tuner card an old WD 1tb green drive and two 1GB ddr2667 sticks but even with the most efficient psu i could find and playing with bios voltage settings I struggled to get the idle power down to 50w from the wall. Playing video it hovers around 55w. Max power seems to be around 80w with 3d graphics running and cpu pegged. This machine is still running strong after all these years and I see myself still using it for some time, but I also see myself doing an atom build for a discrete media center box.
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post #6 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 08:09 AM
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i just built an ion single core atom setup with xbmc for < $200. that includes shipping and tax. i think ion system prices will continue to drop as production volume goes up and software support improves (eg. hulu).

i don't see the difference between that and a media player like popcorn hour or wdtv. (except ion fits my needs better -- bedroom player)

this thread might as well ask... why low end media players... what's the point?

all of them are 99% hardware acceleration with an almost non-existent cpu.

there is an entire forum on avs dedicated to all different types of media players like that. obviously, there is some kind of point.

personlly, i don't see the point in screwing around with detuning a more powerful processor to try and reduce the power. IMO either use something like ion/atom that is designed for low cost/power or build a full blown real htpc with big honkin' cpu. for my main htpc i won't settle for some cheapo underpowered kludge that just gets by (ie. all the low end setups that don't work without hw acceleration)
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post #7 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverjg View Post

i just built an ion single core atom setup with xbmc for < $200.



i don't see the difference between that and a media player like popcorn hour or wdtv. (except ion fits my needs better)

this thread might as well ask... why low end media players... what's the point?

all of them are 99% hardware acceleration with an almost non-existent cpu.

+1. I actually built an ION HTPC to replace a Popcorn Hour A110. I've found it to crash less often than the Popcorn Hour. Well, I haven't actually had the ION build crash on me. The Popcorn Hour seemed like it needed to be reset after every 2 movies or so (was using YAMJ).
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post #8 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 11:35 AM
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oliver, can you post up your build, or link us to it?
thanks
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post #9 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 12:12 PM
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used this combo deal on newegg (case/mb and $20 rebate)...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...Size=10&page=1

i had this memory lying around (take off from an upgrade- for some reason it is expensive now but i only paid $20. need to find some currently cheap ram/reliable ram)...

http://www.amazon.com/CORSAIR-PC2-64...3734239&sr=1-5

used this for flash drive...

http://www.amazon.com/Transcend-Clas...3735046&sr=8-3

used this remote...

http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Contro...3735541&sr=8-1

my setup is intended to only use the flash, no hdd, no dvd drive. also, no keyboard and no mouse. i temporarily plugged in a usb keyboard i had lying around. the remote i mentioned above has mouse control (almost never needed).
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post #10 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 01:48 PM
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I have a Zotac single core Atom ION board running my HTPC currently.

All I use it for is to play MKVs, hardware accel, and DVDs, plenty of power for that. Clicks through Windows Media Center very nicely.
I like it becuase low power, no fan, and it is tiny.
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post #11 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidfire52 View Post

I have a Zotac single core Atom ION board running my HTPC currently.

All I use it for is to play MKVs, hardware accel, and DVDs, plenty of power for that. Clicks through Windows Media Center very nicely.
I like it becuase low power, no fan, and it is tiny.

A lot of blu-ray's/MKV's are encoded with VC-1...How do those play on an ION?


Mike
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post #12 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeEby View Post

A lot of blu-ray's/MKV's are encoded with VC-1...How do those play on an ION?

They don't, at least I haven't found any way to get them to play nice with 7MC. I blame Windows Media Foundation.

Played perfectly when using MPC HomeCinema with internal filters, though.
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post #13 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

They don't, at least I haven't found any way to get them to play nice with 7MC. I blame Windows Media Foundation.

Played perfectly when using MPC HomeCinema with internal filters, though.

Ahh...So VC-1's play perfect in an ION with MPC-HC...That's all I care about anyway.

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post #14 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeEby View Post

Ahh...So VC-1's play perfect in an ION with MPC-HC...That's all I care about anyway.

*sigh* Wish I could say the same. Unfortunately, the parents wouldn't know what to do. By the way, I've only tested a Fast & Furious Blu-Ray rip made with MKV. Haven't really had much chance to test other titles.
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post #15 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

*sigh* Wish I could say the same. Unfortunately, the parents wouldn't know what to do. By the way, I've only tested a Fast & Furious Blu-Ray rip made with MKV. Haven't really had much chance to test other titles.

Really looking at price/performance I think a newer E6500 Worfdale with a G45M-S offer a better value with less risk, $30-$40 more isn't worth the trouble. Plus it has a couple of slots.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813186162

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116093

Yes...Might be a little louder larger and use more power...But working is important too.

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post #16 of 26 Old 09-24-2009, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeEby View Post

Really looking at price/performance I think a newer E6500 Worfdale with a G45M-S offer a better value with less risk, $30-$40 more isn't worth the trouble. Plus it has a couple of slots.

Yes...Might be a little louder larger and use more power...But working is important too.

Heck, even a Sempron 140 would probably outperform the Atom. If you have the space for it, then go for a more capable build. They don't even consume that much power, anyway. Not so sure about the Intel G45, though. Last I heard (which, admittedly, was quite some time ago), the G45's drivers weren't very good.

By the way, my actual/primary HTPC is a (re-purposed) Micro-ATX build:
ECS 945GCT-M/1333
Intel Pentium E5200
Sapphire Radeon HD4550 512MB
Kingston 2x1GB DDR2 667 SDRAM
Western Digital Caviar SE16 320GB
LG Blu-Ray/HD-DVD Combo Drive

Idle power consumption, iirc, is ~50W. Kinda surprised me given the power supply is probably not efficient (came with the case: Apex DM-387, $45), the motherboard uses the relatively high power Intel 945GC Express chipset and a discrete graphics card is installed.

The ION builds are just satellite systems for the bedrooms and there's just not enough space there for Micro-ATX.
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post #17 of 26 Old 09-25-2009, 06:03 AM
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interesting build, but I would rather go with AMD personally. I like the expansion factor which mATX boards will give you. Pretty cool though.

I have seen some tests that show the intel atom is a bit of an underperformer in some tasks... not alot, just a little.

1.6 is pretty like though.

In regards to the VC1 post, VC1 doesn't take much. I was able to play it back on a 3800 x2 amd. AVC is what rips the CPU apart. I prefer VC1 myself, but more and more BDs are now AVC and it seems that it is becoming the new defacto standard.

Current BD breakdown

AVC: 56.5%
VC1: 29.4%
Mpeg2: 14.1%

HD DVD: 45 SD DVD: 350 BR: 120
PCs: 12, Mame Arcade:1, HD HTPC: 1, WHS Server: 1, HD A3: 2, HD-A30: 1

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post #18 of 26 Old 09-25-2009, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bjmarchini View Post

interesting build, but I would rather go with AMD personally. I like the expansion factor which mATX boards will give you. Pretty cool though.

What's interesting? My build? The computer used to a budget web surfing machine with a Celeron 430 (got the mobo+CPU 430 combo for $50 from Fry's). Unfortunately, I couldn't make up my mind what case and motherboard to go with for my new HTPC so I got the old computer, slapped a new processor (E5200, $70) and video card (HD4550, $40) and voila, instant HTPC. What's nice about it is it's played everything I've thrown at it perfectly. Still on Windows XP+GB-PVR, though. I'm still in the process of trying to figure out if I should stay with XP+GB-PVR or move to another software (Windows 7 Media Center or SageTV).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini View Post

In regards to the VC1 post, VC1 doesn't take much. I was able to play it back on a 3800 x2 amd. AVC is what rips the CPU apart. I prefer VC1 myself, but more and more BDs are now AVC and it seems that it is becoming the new defacto standard.

Unfortunately, the native decoders in Windows 7 don't do VC-1 hardware acceleration and the Atom 330 just isn't capable of handling decoding of 1080p VC-1. It might, overclocked, but we're getting 100+F temperatures right now so I can't do that. I expect Microsoft will release a new codec, eventually, but for the meantime, playing 1080p VC-1 on Windows 7 Media Center results in very slow motion video. I reckon if H.264 acceleration wasn't working, that would result in a slide show with stuttering audio.
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post #19 of 26 Old 09-25-2009, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

What's interesting? My build? .

Yup. I have always thought about using those "tiny" motherboards for an HTPC... but am a sucker for lots of expansion slots.

HD DVD: 45 SD DVD: 350 BR: 120
PCs: 12, Mame Arcade:1, HD HTPC: 1, WHS Server: 1, HD A3: 2, HD-A30: 1

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post #20 of 26 Old 09-25-2009, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini View Post

Yup. I have always thought about using those "tiny" motherboards for an HTPC... but am a sucker for lots of expansion slots.

By the way, that wasn't exactly tiny. It's just your run of the mill mATX with 4 expansion slots.

Now the Apex MW-100 + Zotac IONITX-D-E build is tiny. Hmm, I think its volume is close to a Wii. Still bigger than a Mac Mini, though.
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post #21 of 26 Old 09-25-2009, 10:30 AM
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Still on Windows XP+GB-PVR, though. I'm still in the process of trying to figure out if I should stay with XP+GB-PVR or move to another software (Windows 7 Media Center or SageTV).

ilovejedd why are you considering making the switch?
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post #22 of 26 Old 09-25-2009, 12:24 PM
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ilovejedd why are you considering making the switch?

Windows 7 Media Center
  • greater availability of add-ons
  • native Netflix support
  • CableCARD support (not so much now since I'm really hating the cable co)

SageTV Media Center
  • tuner pooling
  • PC extender support (possible in GB-PVR but a bit erratic for live TV during my tests)

Pissed off at Charter, cancelled the TV service, so I needed something with EPG that I can get working in 2 hours for my mom (I get home earlier than her). GB-PVR used to work perfectly but I hadn't touched it since way before the analog switch-off so all the channel mappings were out of whack, not to mention I still had a really old version (1.2.something) installed. Already had the ION build on hand (was using it for testing Windows 7) so I just connected that to the TV, installed the HDHomeRun drivers, fired up Windows Media Center and set it up for TV viewing.

I love GB-PVR's channel mapping feature but I didn't really have the time to do it. I needed something I can deploy quickly with a minimum of fuss and that meant Windows Media Center. Now that I started using Media Center, I find myself liking it - enough to consider replacing GB-PVR. Besides, I figure if anyone can get official Hulu support, it'll be Windows Media Center.
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post #23 of 26 Old 09-25-2009, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Herc View Post

I'm curious how would an atom 330 ion rig compare to an Athlon X2 underclocked and undervolted with nvidia onboard GPU?

that depends on what aspects you're talking about....

performance-wise, the Athlon will rock the Atom.
in terms of power efficiency and small form-factor, the Atom wins, hands-down.

i'm personally seriously considering purchasing an ASRock Nettop ION 330 AMCP7A-ION system for my living room....it's got the 1.6Ghz dual-core 330 chip, which is the ONLY atom chip that supports 64-bit instructions (essential for supporting 4GB+ RAM & a 64-bit OS), has an nVidia 9400m GPU (which supports full hardware 1080p playback, and is decent even for casual gaming), and the memory runs in dual-channel mode, vs. single-channel mode for all the others. read the review.

i don't think this system is priced too terribly for what you get:

white version
black version

sure, there are cheaper ways to go, but this thing really couldn't be much easier.....just plug it in, install your OS of choice and applications/front end, and you're good to go....it draws virtually no power, it's silent, it doesn't run hot, it looks good, and it's got a TINY footprint. i've even read on other forums that someone has this exact system and plays WoW on it with no problems.....so it can't be as bad as you guys are making it out to be. the other atom systems, maybe, but not all atom systems are the same.
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post #24 of 26 Old 09-25-2009, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by xunil76 View Post

sure, there are cheaper ways to go, but this thing really couldn't be much easier.....just plug it in, install your OS of choice and applications/front end, and you're good to go....it draws virtually no power, it's silent, it doesn't run hot, it looks good, and it's got a TINY footprint. i've even read on other forums that someone has this exact system and plays WoW on it with no problems.....so it can't be as bad as you guys are making it out to be. the other atom systems, maybe, but not all atom systems are the same.

We're not saying it's bad. We're just saying you're limited on what you can do because the processor isn't exactly a powerhouse. For instance, I can play 1080p VC-1 MKV in MPC HomeCinema perfectly on the ION build, but playing the same video using Windows Media Center (x64) would result in slo-mo. I'm going to have to test Windows 7 32-bit to see if I can get the MPC Video Decoders (ergo DXVA) working inside Windows Media Center.

Flash HD (YouTube, Hulu, etc) via browser is a hit and miss proposition, too. Sometimes, you'll chance on a video that's not very complex and would play nicely (YouTube actually has a number of those). Sometimes, you get stutter and slow framerates.
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post #25 of 26 Old 09-25-2009, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I was in a bind deciding between a budget build, AMD + ATI mobo GPU or an ion.

I decided on the AMD. It'll have the oomph to do some encoding duties and playback anything the 'net will offer.

If I want to drop it down to recording or transcoding duties I can throw in a CUDA or AVIVO card or a tuner.

I find the physical limitations of the ion too stiffling.

Personally, the only real lure of ion is a custom, flash booted XBMC for linux build ala the original xbox.
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post #26 of 26 Old 09-26-2009, 08:11 AM
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if you start out with a flash based ion/xbmc setup, you can get it up and running in a couple of hours... build + install. $200

you can play with that setup to see if you really like having an htpc. the hardware architecture is very similar to other nvidia based pc builds. so, it plays most of the same files. most notable is that it can decode multichannel flac while playing 1080p video. this makes it compatible with full blown htpc that uses mkv/flac. note that i am just talking about decoding the data, not necessarily sending it out as multichannel lpcm over hdmi (possible but another topic). what i am talking about is that it can play the files and downmix if necessary. afaik none of the netwoked media players in the same price range can decode multichannel flac and downmix.

becaue it is a pc, later on you can add HDDs, dvd drive, even bd drive, you can try win7, you can try other hw that a normal pc uses and see what is possible. if you do something like that, you can re-use the parts on a bigger/more powerful setup later. then you can either setup the ion as a bedroom pc, or just use it for general purpose pc.you could even use it to create a low budget file server.

i think ion provides a migration path to bigger and better things. IMO boxes like popcorn hour are a dead end. the hw platform is too crippled to do anything new and you cannot reuse the parts for something else. i paid $240 (with shipping) for a popcorn hour. it is just a brick now. will probably never use it again.
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