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post #61 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 08:36 AM
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There's a good chance you'll pull your hair out trying to get bitstreaming from an HTPC working correctly. Other than it being very expensive (you'll either need a GPU that supports bitstreaming, or an external soundcard (Asus HD Slim), then you'll need a new-ish amp that supports the new HD audio formats. Then there's the issue with some receivers not supporting the correct EDID options for 5/7.1 surround. It goes on and on. There's also the issue with supported software. While both PDVD and TMT3 now support bitstreaming, you need the 'full' (expensive) versions of both, and an audio card that supports PAP. This is also the only way to get full HD audio out of these that's not downmixed to 16-bit/48Hz either.

I've used FLAC in an MKV container from the beginning, actually sent over the 5.1 analog outputs from a cheap Asus Xonar DX to the analog inputs on my receiver (any recevier with analog inputs will work). The audio is sent full bandwidth, and sounds fantastic. No reason why you couldn't do this over HDMI as well, but in my case, the HDMI connection from the HTPC goes straight into the TV. This way, normal viewing uses the TV speakers, but switching to MPC-HC for HD rips uses DirectSound over-ride to send audio to the Xonar DX. All seamlessly launched from within MediaBrowser.

And honestly, for watching BD movies from disc, I have a blu-ray player, which means when I want it, I can get the audio bitstreaming to my amp anyway.
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post #62 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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^You may be right. I do have the video card (ati 5750) and receiver (onkyo 607) that supports HD Audio.

Though right now, I'm not even that concerned with the bitstreaming. I am trying to figure out why my bluray rips with just an ac3 track are only displaying as pcm on my receiver and not as Dolby Digital.

I was digging a bit in MPC under the Internal Filters, I noticed that the AC3 settings are:
Output Sample format: PCM 16bit
AC3 Decoder Settings: Decode to speakers (Stereo). SPFIF is an option, but no hdmi

Do these settings need to be changed?

Basically, I am not sure what (if anything) needs to be configured to get AC3 to display on my amp.
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post #63 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare View Post

^You may be right. I do have the video card (ati 5750) and receiver (onkyo 607) that supports HD Audio.

Though right now, I'm not even that concerned with the bitstreaming. I am trying to figure out why my bluray rips with just an ac3 track are only displaying as pcm on my receiver and not as Dolby Digital.

I was digging a bit in MPC under the Internal Filters, I noticed that the AC3 settings are:
Output Sample format: PCM 16bit
AC3 Decoder Settings: Decode to speakers (Stereo). SPFIF is an option, but no hdmi

Do these settings need to be changed?

Basically, I am not sure what (if anything) needs to be configured to get AC3 to display on my amp.

"SPDIF" is it. You have to select it for AC3/DTS bitsreaming.

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post #64 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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^ so as soon as I select spdif (selected the LFE checkbox as well), I get no sound (which kind of makes sense as it is hdmi not spdif) and the video playback is all jerky (cpu activity is same as before making change). And receiver still didn't display Dolby Digital.
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post #65 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

Yes, FLAC is best in your case. Install madflac and it will play in windows media player or windows media center. MPC-HC can use it's own flac decoder or madflac. The choice is yours.
http://madshi.net/madFlac.rar

Madflac won't work in Media Center for him because he's using x64. He'll have to use the FLAC decoder in FFDShow x64.
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post #66 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I have started another thread on my AC3 issue as the issue has deviated a fair amount from the topic of this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post17822187
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post #67 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrwalte View Post

Madflac won't work in Media Center for him because he's using x64. He'll have to use the FLAC decoder in FFDShow x64.

You're right. I overlooked the x64 part.

Do you know for sure if ffdshow tryouts x64 will provide 24bit flac decoding? Last I heard it was limited to 16bit but then I don't keep on it.

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post #68 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 09:51 AM
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I haven't heard it supporting 24-bit yet.
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post #69 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare View Post

^ so as soon as I select spdif (selected the LFE checkbox as well), I get no sound (which kind of makes sense as it is hdmi not spdif) and the video playback is all jerky (cpu activity is same as before making change). And receiver still didn't display Dolby Digital.

Hmm, no problem here. But mine is Windows 7 x86. Apparently "SPDIF" is a misleading name. It just bitstreams AC3/DTS over the audio renderer selected in Options > Output (as long as it supports AC3/DTS bitstreams). BTW LFE (Low-Frequency Effects) is subwoofer (so relevant only to analog output).

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post #70 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

You're right. I overlooked the x64 part.

Do you know for sure if ffdshow tryouts x64 will provide 24bit flac decoding? Last I heard it was limited to 16bit but then I don't keep on it.

This is some of the stuff I get confused on or I can't remember what's/what so, I do have 32 bit MPC-hc downloaded and tried that, in fact I tried WMP and it would not play my bd rips, can't remember which one's because I have different containers etc I was trying out. But, I have not downloaded anything but Haali and MPC-HC.

So, if I get this right I should be running MPC-HC and Madflac to get the best sound for my set up without downsampling etc? Or would 24bit to 16 bit be that much of a difference?

Also, is there a way to see what bitrate I am running audio-wise in WMP and MPC-HC? Like the way the PS3 does with audio and video.
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post #71 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

You're right. I overlooked the x64 part.

Do you know for sure if ffdshow tryouts x64 will provide 24bit flac decoding? Last I heard it was limited to 16bit but then I don't keep on it.

If I am using analog audio with FLAC decoding done by ffdshow, is it only 16 bit? I am using Win7 x86. Would madflac be a better choice? Thanks.
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post #72 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDz View Post

This is some of the stuff I get confused on or I can't remember what's/what so, I do have 32 bit MPC-hc downloaded and tried that, in fact I tried WMP and it would not play my bd rips, can't remember which one's because I have different containers etc I was trying out. But, I have not downloaded anything but Haali and MPC-HC.

So, if I get this right I should be running MPC-HC and Madflac to get the best sound for my set up without downsampling etc? Or would 24bit to 16 bit be that much of a difference?

Also, is there a way to see what bitrate I am running audio-wise in WMP and MPC-HC? Like the way the PS3 does with audio and video.

Also another question if y'all don't mind.....I have read you should use reclock, should or can I use reclock with the questions above? I thought you could not use reclock with 64bit but what about using the 32bit MPC-HC with Reclock on a 64bit W7 install? Once again I am a newbie at all this and I don't really understand what reclock does besides reduce stutter/jitter etc.

Thanks for any help....
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post #73 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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okay, got my AC3 issue sorted out - turns out I didn't have the ati hdmi audio driver installed. doh!

Now, back to the flac track. How can I be sure I am playing the HD equivalent vs. some watered down version (like what was happening with my AC3 track, that wasn't actually playing ac3).

When playing my rip with only a flac extraction of truehd, my receiver now says PCM Fs: 48khz, instead of the PCM fs: 44.1khz it used to say before the ati hdmi audio drivers was installed.

However, it sounds to me like all the speakers are receiving the same signal. I.e. the surround speakers have the same amount and volume of dialogue as the center channel.

Also, while Graph Studio says it is using teh ffdshow audio decoder, I do not know how to get the ffdshow audio decoder configuration Info & Cpu screen to display the movie info - like in the screenshot of the first post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&highlight=mkv

Anyone know how to do this?
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post #74 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDz View Post

This is some of the stuff I get confused on or I can't remember what's/what so, I do have 32 bit MPC-hc downloaded and tried that, in fact I tried WMP and it would not play my bd rips, can't remember which one's because I have different containers etc I was trying out. But, I have not downloaded anything but Haali and MPC-HC.

So, if I get this right I should be running MPC-HC and Madflac to get the best sound for my set up without downsampling etc? Or would 24bit to 16 bit be that much of a difference?

For the best sound MPC-HC makes no difference. I only use media center myself, at least on my HTPC. For FLAC playback, madflac is the best i'm aware of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrodbob1976 View Post

If I am using analog audio with FLAC decoding done by ffdshow, is it only 16 bit? I am using Win7 x86. Would madflac be a better choice? Thanks.

From what I understand, yes.

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post #75 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 05:37 PM
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Windows audio engine resamples every audio sample to the bit depth/sample rate you chose in Sound control panel. For example, if you select 16bit, 48kHz in Sound control panel, LPCM decoded from, say, 24bit 48kHz FLAC will be downsampled to 16bit 48kHz. To avoid this issue, use WASAPI exclusive mode (via ReClock) that bypasses Windows audio engine entirely and sends 24bit 48kHz LPCM from ffdshow to the audio driver directly (so called *bit-perfect*). Check all of "16 bit integer", "24 bit integer", "32 bit integer", "32 bit floating point"; ffdshow will send the best one that ReClock/the audio driver accepts.

"Supported output sample formats" Output
16 bit 16 bit
24 bit 24 bit
32 bit 32 bit
32 bit float 32 bit float
16 bit, 24 bit 16 bit
16 bit, 32 bit 32 bit
16 bit, 32 bit float 16 bit
24 bit, 32 bit 32 bit
24 bit, 32 bit float 24 bit
32 bit, 32 bit float 32 bit
16 bit, 24 bit, 32 bit 32 bit
16 bit, 24 bit, 32 bit float 16 bit
16 bit, 32 bit, 32 bit float 32 bit
24 bit, 32 bit, 32 bit float 32 bit
16 bit, 24 bit, 32 bit, 32 bit float 32 bit

I confirmed these as in this post. ffdshow prefers:

32 bit > 16 bit > 24 bit > 32 bit float.

32 bit is OK as it is obtained from 24 bit by just zero padded.

Another FLAC decoder is madFlac. Unlike ffdshow (which can process audio samples in various ways), madFlac is designed to be bit-perfect from the outset.

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post #76 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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^I just tried madflac and confirmed in graph studio that it was being used. Still, all channels are outputting the same signal. I am going to try rip another bluray and see if the same thing happens.
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post #77 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 06:02 PM
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Are you using WASAPI exclusive? If not, your audio is ruined.

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post #78 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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ahh. I misunderstood you. I thought with madflac you didn't need reclock/wasapi, I will dl and try now.
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post #79 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Are you using WASAPI exclusive? If not, your audio is ruined.

You said madflac is bit perfect? Your post made it sound like reclock is only needed for ffdshow?
You also said that if your audio in the control panel is 24bit then that is what will be outputted to the sound driver? I run with mine at 24bit.

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post #80 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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so, now after installing reclock, I cannot even launch my movie anymore. mpc just freezes and says opening file.

Any setting changes I try make in reclock, I get an error stating: Cannot change 'bypass audio renderers' status. please reinstall reclock.

Tried 1.6 and 1.7 beta.

Even after uninstalling reclock, I cannot launch mpc. tried reinstalling mpc still no go. I can launch mpc on its own, but cannot start a movie with it.

man.

----edit.
k, video's are launching again now that I did an unistall of 1.7beta.

so, I didn't see any setting in reclock regarding wasapi. where do I set this up?
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post #81 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75 View Post

You said madflac is bit perfect? Your post made it sound like reclock is only needed for ffdshow?
You also said that if your audio in the control panel is 24bit then that is what will be outputted to the sound driver? I run with mine at 24bit.

madFlac/ffdshow are audio decoder filters. Windows Default DirectSound device/ReClock are audio renderer filters. You need both a decoder filter and a renderer filter. To get bit-perfect, the decoder must support bit-perfect and the renderer must support WASAPI exclusive. A basic flow of audio samples is:
source -> decoder -> audio renderer -> WASAPI (Windows Audio Session API) -> Windows audio engine (in shared mode; bypassed in exclusive mode) -> audio driver/device -> HDMI IMO Windows audio engine is the major source of audio quality degradation. Use WASAPI exclusive if possible.

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post #82 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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^So, just took a peek at your Recommended HTPC thread and saw the note about reclock only working on 32bit os. I presume reclock 1.7beta is still only working in 32bit? I am 64bit, I am guessing that is why it was buggering me up.

So guess I am kinda hooped? Maybe I will do a 32bit install tomorrow. Shouldn't take much time since my htpc doesn't really have much installed on it anyway.
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post #83 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheare View Post

so, now after installing reclock, I cannot even launch my movie anymore. mpc just freezes and says opening file.

Any setting changes I try make in reclock, I get an error stating: Cannot change 'bypass audio renderers' status. please reinstall reclock.

Tried 1.6 and 1.7 beta.

Even after uninstalling reclock, I cannot launch mpc. tried reinstalling mpc still no go. I can launch mpc on its own, but cannot start a movie with it.

man.

----edit.
k, video's are launching again now that I did an unistall of 1.7beta.

so, I didn't see any setting in reclock regarding wasapi. where do I set this up?

There are a couple of pitfalls.

- Use Realtek driver for ATI HDMI audio device (the current version is R2.39), better than the ATI HDMI audio driver (included in Catalyst 9.12 suite).
- Download ReClock 1.8.5.5 and install it.
- Configure ReClock this way.

- Make sure all the correct filters are there, by GraphStudio. Default DirectSound Device is actually ReClock.dll.

and ReClock Properties (click the ReClock icon in the system tray). In the screenshot below you see ReClock accepts 24bit/48kHz audio streams from madFlac (a typical sample rate of TrueHD), then outputs (32bit/48kHz) to the driver via WASAPI exclusive. Realtek driver supports 16bit/32bit, while ATI driver supports only 16bit (from ReClock).

madFlac and ReClock are 32-bit filters. So you have to use a 32-bit player (e.g. MPC HomeCinema x86). OS can be either 32 bit or 64 bit, however (I strongly recommend 32bit unless it is an office machine).
LL
LL
LL

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post #84 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 08:06 PM
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reclock killed bitstreaming for me. I got it back my checking the box: accept SPDIF formats(not recommended)

Why is that not recommended and is there something else I should be doing?

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post #85 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 08:28 PM
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Ultimately, the purpose of ReClock is, by adjusting the reference clock to match your video card, adjusting the sound to stay in sync with picture, and modifying the global playback rate, ReClock should allow a smooth movie experience on your monitor and even on your TV (from the readme file).

That means audio is resampled (here; in this sense ReClock does not provide "bit-perfect" audio [I am sorry for confusion]) and bitstreaming compressed audio formats is not supported. That's why ReClock provides an AC3 encoder (in case you sound device does not support multichannel LPCM).

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post #86 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 08:31 PM
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Hmmm, well I have many movies, almost half are FLAC and the rest are DTS or DD. Should I just give up on reclock then? Like I said I do have the windows audio set to 24bit 48khz so that's what I should be getting.

I have no issues with jittery playback. It's always been smooth. Just want to make sure i'm getting the audio from FLAC i'm supposed to be getting while I can still bitstream other formats.

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post #87 of 154 Old 12-31-2009, 09:18 PM
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ReClock: Why SPDIF "not recommended". Bitstreaming compressed audio formats simply does not work with ReClock for many people. I would use the unified method:
FLAC/AC3/DTS -> FLAC/AC3/DTS decoder -> PCM audio -> ReClock -> Resampled PCM audio -> WASAPI exclusive -> HDMI audio driver/device Eventually as long as AC3/DTS decoder decodes AC3/DTS correctly, you won't hear difference (the same logic as TrueHD/DTS-HD bitstreaming vs FLAC ). Windows shared mode for FLAC > LPCM is much more harmful, imo.

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post #88 of 154 Old 01-01-2010, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

ReClock: Why SPDIF "not recommended". Bitstreaming compressed audio formats simply does not work with ReClock for many people. I would use the unified method:
FLAC/AC3/DTS -> FLAC/AC3/DTS decoder -> PCM audio -> ReClock -> Resampled PCM audio -> WASAPI exclusive -> HDMI audio driver/device Eventually as long as AC3/DTS decoder decodes AC3/DTS correctly, you won't hear difference (the same logic as TrueHD/DTS-HD bitstreaming vs FLAC ). Windows shared mode for FLAC > LPCM is much more harmful, imo.

Sorry I just have to ask again since I seem to be one of the only people using analog. If I am analog, do I have any of the worries described above. Obviously my MB is doing all the decoding and my AVR is simply amplifying what is coming in. That being said, how exactly is my MB getting the job done? If I am playing a FLAC file that either came from a TrueHD or DTS-MA original source, and I am using either MadFlac or ffdshow to decode it, lastly using the default windows renderer to play it, am I getting the full audio without any down sampling? Of course my sound setting will be set to 48KHz\\24 bit. Is it necessary for me to use reclock? BTW HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!
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post #89 of 154 Old 01-01-2010, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

Windows audio engine resamples every audio sample to the bit depth/sample rate you chose in Sound control panel. For example, if you select 16bit, 48kHz in Sound control panel, LPCM decoded from, say, 24bit 48kHz FLAC will be downsampled to 16bit 48kHz. To avoid this issue, use WASAPI exclusive mode (via ReClock) that bypasses Windows audio engine entirely and sends 24bit 48kHz LPCM from ffdshow to the audio driver directly (so called *bit-perfect*). Check all of "16 bit integer", "24 bit integer", "32 bit integer", "32 bit floating point"; ffdshow will send the best one that ReClock/the audio driver accepts.

"Supported output sample formats" Output
16 bit 16 bit
24 bit 24 bit
32 bit 32 bit
32 bit float 32 bit float
16 bit, 24 bit 16 bit
16 bit, 32 bit 32 bit
16 bit, 32 bit float 16 bit
24 bit, 32 bit 32 bit
24 bit, 32 bit float 24 bit
32 bit, 32 bit float 32 bit
16 bit, 24 bit, 32 bit 32 bit
16 bit, 24 bit, 32 bit float 16 bit
16 bit, 32 bit, 32 bit float 32 bit
24 bit, 32 bit, 32 bit float 32 bit
16 bit, 24 bit, 32 bit, 32 bit float 32 bit

I confirmed these as in this post. ffdshow prefers:

32 bit > 16 bit > 24 bit > 32 bit float.

32 bit is OK as it is obtained from 24 bit by just zero padded.

Another FLAC decoder is madFlac. Unlike ffdshow (which can process audio samples in various ways), madFlac is designed to be bit-perfect from the outset.

is there any way to use reclock if I need to be able to watch live tv? last time I tried reclock it broke my live tv playback.

If I am not using reclock for my .flac rips is windows doing something to my audio?
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post #90 of 154 Old 01-01-2010, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

There are a couple of pitfalls.

- Use Realtek driver for ATI HDMI audio device (the current version is R2.39), better than the ATI HDMI audio driver (included in Catalyst 9.12 suite).
- Download ReClock 1.8.5.5 and install it.
- Configure ReClock this way.

- Make sure all the correct filters are there, by GraphStudio. Default DirectSound Device is actually ReClock.dll.

and ReClock Properties (click the ReClock icon in the system tray). In the screenshot below you see ReClock accepts 24bit/48kHz audio streams from madFlac (a typical sample rate of TrueHD), then outputs (32bit/48kHz) to the driver via WASAPI exclusive. Realtek driver supports 16bit/32bit, while ATI driver supports only 16bit (from ReClock).

madFlac and ReClock are 32-bit filters. So you have to use a 32-bit player (e.g. MPC HomeCinema x86). OS can be either 32 bit or 64 bit, however (I strongly recommend 32bit unless it is an office machine).

Why does your video render say (custom presenter)?
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