ATI HD 5000 Series Known Problems (5870 5850 5770 5750 5670 5570 5450) - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
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YCbCr doesn't output 0-255 at all (by design, not a bug), AFAIK. 0-255 is only for RGB.
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post #632 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

YCbCr doesn't output 0-255 at all (by design, not a bug), AFAIK. 0-255 is only for RGB.


YUV should support 0-255 (that's basically how you get BTB and WTW), but the content is normally in 16-235. By design video can use white up to 240 I think. That's also why in AVSHD test, it's recommanded to set contrast to a value that 235 is still white and you can see something above 235.
My observation shows in video mode I got 0-255 if I choose YUV pixel format. However all rgb content such as desktop is compressed.
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post #633 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 05:28 AM
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After much trial and even more error, I decided to give the 10.3 drivers a test in hopes that they could help clean up my blacks/grays and the terribly annoying vertical line issues.

I am thrilled to say that so far so good. Using all the same settings a before

59hz, RGB Full 0-255 for both the CCC dynamic and display settings.

As well as seeming to completely solve my vertical line issue, the drivers seemed to address the lack of proper black output and some of the improper color.

The only thing I've noticed is a very very slight increase in GPU usage.
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post #634 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 08:41 AM
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Here's my setup :

Win7 64 bits, ATI 5850 with Cat 10.2 running through an Onkyo 805 and then to the Pro8100.

The projector was working fine in 1080p 60hz last night but after tweaking the scaling (adjust desktop to fill screen) and stupidly checking what the LCD overdrive function did, my only refresh option became 30i hz (1080i).

Reinstalling both the ATI and monitor drivers after a cleansweep "worked" With Win7 detecting my Onky805, under monitor, I do get the 1080p 60hz option. Unfortunately, I cannot leave thing like that. Because some EDID issue, I am using a "tweaked EDID" (by Tulli) fixing the issues I had with Bitstreaming and surround sound. This tweaked monitor profile EDID worked fine but now when I reinstall it, I get stuck to 30i hz. I re-downloaded it and somehow, its as if Windows "remembered" the damaged/altered driver.

Any help would be immensely appreciated.
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post #635 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Astralmind View Post

Here's my setup :

Win7 64 bits, ATI 5850 with Cat 10.2 running through an Onkyo 805 and then to the Pro8100.

The projector was working fine in 1080p 60hz last night but after tweaking the scaling (adjust desktop to fill screen) and stupidly checking what the LCD overdrive function did, my only refresh option became 30i hz (1080i).

Reinstalling both the ATI and monitor drivers after a cleansweep "worked" With Win7 detecting my Onky805, under monitor, I do get the 1080p 60hz option. Unfortunately, I cannot leave thing like that. Because some EDID issue, I am using a "tweaked EDID" (by Tulli) fixing the issues I had with Bitstreaming and surround sound. This tweaked monitor profile EDID worked fine but now when I reinstall it, I get stuck to 30i hz. I re-downloaded it and somehow, its as if Windows "remembered" the damaged/altered driver.

Any help would be immensely appreciated.

Check to make sure you didn't check the box "GPU scaling", this has caused similar issues for many of us.
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post #636 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

YUV should support 0-255 (that's basically how you get BTB and WTW), but the content is normally in 16-235. By design video can use white up to 240 I think. That's also why in AVSHD test, it's recommanded to set contrast to a value that 235 is still white and you can see something above 235.
My observation shows in video mode I got 0-255 if I choose YUV pixel format. However all rgb content such as desktop is compressed.

You can't have video in an uncompressed format, and the desktop in an uncompressed format and have them both look good.

So you make a compromise.

If the desktop is output at 0-255, you must clip BTB and all current drivers also clip WTW from video and expand the video content to 0-255 so the desktop matches the video.

The other option is to compress the deskto to 16-235 and leave video in it's native format.

If you leave video in full range and the desktop in full range, then you must either calibrate your display to full range and the video will be washed out, or calibrate to video levels wich will cause the loss of all detail bellow 16 for anything on the PC that is not video.

So you can either make a subjective compromise on quality by compressing the desktop or expanding video and have a consistent experience, or you can have one be wrong. I take both correct, but one compromised everytime over having one right and one wrong.

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post #637 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CardNation View Post

Check to make sure you didn't check the box "GPU scaling", this has caused similar issues for many of us.

! wow.. well, yes indeed I have it checked because.. I need it. With my current PJ, my desktop won't fit the screen unless I scale it by 7%. What I find weird is that without the EDID override, it was working fine (and.. I do need the override). Any work around ?

Thanks so much for pointing this out, I would have never thought that this could cause the problem.
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post #638 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Astralmind View Post

! wow.. well, yes indeed I have it checked because.. I need it. With my current PJ, my desktop won't fit the screen unless I scale it by 7%. What I find weird is that without the EDID override, it was working fine (and.. I do need the override). Any work around ?

Thanks so much for pointing this out, I would have never thought that this could cause the problem.

Have you tried scaling it as desired and then unchecking the box?
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post #639 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by CardNation View Post

Have you tried scaling it as desired and then unchecking the box?

No, I assumed it would revert the scaling. I will do that first thing when I get home.

These forums are a milion time more helpful than any pro tech support offered by companies ! Thanks a lot CardNation !
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post #640 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You can't have video in an uncompressed format, and the desktop in an uncompressed format and have them both look good.

So you make a compromise.

If the desktop is output at 0-255, you must clip BTB and all current drivers also clip WTW from video and expand the video content to 0-255 so the desktop matches the video.

The other option is to compress the deskto to 16-235 and leave video in it's native format.

If you leave video in full range and the desktop in full range, then you must either calibrate your display to full range and the video will be washed out, or calibrate to video levels wich will cause the loss of all detail bellow 16 for anything on the PC that is not video.

So you can either make a subjective compromise on quality by compressing the desktop or expanding video and have a consistent experience, or you can have one be wrong. I take both correct, but one compromised everytime over having one right and one wrong.

Perfectly explained. But you also have one more option, which is set desktop in full range, and make the video calibration at the output, using ffdshow's levels filter to clip 0-16 values as black, and 245(aprox)-255 values as white.

Then you'll have the desktop untouched at 0-255, and when watching video, it will be at 16-245.
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post #641 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post

Perfectly explained. But you also have one more option, which is set desktop in full range, and make the video calibration at the output, using ffdshow's levels filter to clip 0-16 values as black, and 245(aprox)-255 values as white.

Then you'll have the desktop untouched at 0-255, and when watching video, it will be at 16-245.

a variation of expanding video (and why not keep everything up to 255).

I would be very supportive of clipping black and maintaining super white.

Unfrotunetly you can only do that in software and isn't supported in the driver.

If you notice I never said WTW had to be clipped above, only that current implementations do clip WTW.

Either way you are still comprimizing video by remaping it's levels.

It would take some math to figure out, but the other important bit would be making sure that the new values don't change the relative gamma of the different levels.

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post #642 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

a variation of expanding video (and why not keep everything up to 255).

I would be very supportive of clipping black and maintaining super white.

Unfrotunetly you can only do that in software and isn't supported in the driver.

If you notice I never said WTW had to be clipped above, only that current implementations do clip WTW.

Either way you are still comprimizing video by remaping it's levels.

Yes, keeping top white at 245 or at 255 is a matter of taste. I prefer 245, but I have nothing against setting it to 255.

And I agree that I'm comprimizing video that way, but do you know another option for having 16-255 without compromizing video which is better than that?
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post #643 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post

Yes, keeping top white at 245 or at 255 is a matter of taste. I prefer 245, but I have nothing against setting it to 255.

And I agree that I'm comprimizing video that way, but do you know another option for having 16-255 without compromizing video which is better than that?

Looks like YCrCb 4:4:4 in the latest 10.2 on my 5450 compressed the desktop to 16-235, and lets video go with full range 0-255 so all BTB and WTW data is passed.

That means all the clipping is handled by the display, you can use a good video pluge pattern to set your black level, and a superwhite pattern to set contrast.

Personally I like to see white all the way to 255, if nothing on the screen is brighter than 235, you will absolutely believe and see 235 as white.

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post #644 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Looks like YCrCb 4:4:4 in the latest 10.2 on my 5450 compressed the desktop to 16-235, and lets video go with full range 0-255 so all BTB and WTW data is passed.

That means all the clipping is handled by the display, you can use a good video pluge pattern to set your black level, and a superwhite pattern to set contrast.

Personally I like to see white all the way to 255, if nothing on the screen is brighter than 235, you will absolutely believe and see 235 as white.

Yes, but there aren't so many movies which have values higher than 245, although it's perfectly acceptable to have top white at 255 too, of course.

Regarding the pixel format, I don't mind about the desktop at all, my only goal is to watch videos at the best possible quality on my TV from my HTPC. So I think I'll stick to the RGB Full Pixel Format (0-255).

I agree that clipping in my display would be the best option. The problem is that I can't do that by now. My TV shares the same settings for every source (in my case, a SAT receiver, a DVD player, and the HTPC), so that settings are untouchable. As I can't make any adjustment there until I make an ISF calibration to the TV (that will allow me to have independent setting for each source), and I'll have to wait some time before doing it, that leaves me with the only choice of calibrating at the HTPC output using the ffdshow's levels filter. Don't you think? Or do you see any other better solution?
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post #645 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post

Regarding the pixel format, I don't mind about the desktop at all, my only goal is to watch videos at the best possible quality on my TV from my HTPC. So I think I'll stick to the RGB Full Pixel Format (0-255).

I agree that clipping in my display would be the best option. The problem is that I can't do that by now. My TV shares the same settings for every source (in my case, a SAT receiver, a DVD player, and the HTPC), so that settings are untouchable. As I can't make any adjustment there until I make an ISF calibration to the TV (that will allow me to have independent setting for each source), and I'll have to wait some time before doing it, that leaves me with the only choice of calibrating at the HTPC output using the ffdshow's levels filter. Don't you think? Or do you see any other better solution?

That's exactly why using the YCrCb options is the best way to go.

YCrCb is what the satallite and DVD player us for output.

All video sources have a nominal range of 16-235.

You can easily setup your display to clip at 240 if you whish and have everything be consistent.

if you use RGB full, you CANNOT share an input with a DVD or a satillite player.

Those sources will not look consistent with an RGB full input, they will have signigantly raised black levels.

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post #646 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

That's exactly why using the YCrCb options is the best way to go.

YCrCb is what the satallite and DVD player us for output.

All video sources have a nominal range of 16-235.

You can easily setup your display to clip at 240 if you whish and have everything be consistent.

if you use RGB full, you CANNOT share an input with a DVD or a satillite player.

Those sources will not look consistent with an RGB full input, they will have signigantly raised black levels.

The problem is I'm using an ATI card, and it works in RGB, so it always has to make a YCbCr->RGB conversion. That's the reason why it's better to output Full RGB. If not, the card would make 2 conversions: YCbCr->RGB and then RGB->YCbCr, which is undesirable in PQ terms.

And in the other hand, using YCbCr as Pixel Format in my card (HD4850) gives me the exact same black level than Full RGB. As you said, YCbCr lets video go with full range 0-255 so all BTB and WTW data is passed, just like Full RGB does.
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post #647 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post

The problem is I'm using an ATI card, and it works in RGB, so it always has to make a YCbCr->RGB conversion. That's the reason why it's better to output Full RGB. If not, the card would make 2 conversions: YCbCr->RGB and then RGB->YCbCr, which is undesirable in PQ terms.

And in the other hand, using YCbCr as Pixel Format in my card (HD4850) gives me the exact same black level than Full RGB. As you said, YCbCr lets video go with full range 0-255 so all BTB and WTW data is passed, just like Full RGB does.

Go buy a 5000 series card that has the new AVIVO engine in it, use it in YCrCb mode.

It works for HTPC use, every other card is broken in some way, end of story.


RGB -> YCrCb 4:4:4 is a fairly lossless process, especially considering the source material is in 4:2:0 and output at 4:4:4, I'm not entirely sure how the AVIVO pipe stores it's data in memory before pipping it out. Because of PVP, they've already carved out a special place in memory to store encrypted non-standard contents, they could be keeping in in YCrCb the whole time, I don't know and neither do you.

But assuming they did double convert, how is that any different than transforming it from YCrCb to RGB, and then resampling the RGB to a different set of levels?

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post #648 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

RGB -> YCrCb 4:4:4 is a fairly lossless process, especially considering the source material is in 4:2:0 and output at 4:4:4, I'm not entirely sure how the AVIVO pipe stores it's data in memory before pipping it out. Because of PVP, they've already carved out a special place in memory to store encrypted non-standard contents, they could be keeping in in YCrCb the whole time, I don't know and neither do you.

But assuming they did double convert, how is that any different than transforming it from YCrCb to RGB, and then resampling the RGB to a different set of levels?

It's not me who says it. It's the author of madVR and the author of cr3dlut who says that, and I'm sure that if they assure it's because they've checked it. See this thread for more info: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...18#post1271418

And to me, it's better to avoid extra pixel format conversions expanding levels than making two pixel format conversions. Also, although I'd output at YCbCr, I would have to adjust levels too, so I would be losing more PQ with YCbCr than with Full RGB...

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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Go buy a 5000 series card that has the new AVIVO engine in it, use it in YCrCb mode.

It works for HTPC use, every other card is broken in some way, end of story.

Really? Are you saying that all the HD4XXX ATI cards are useless for HTPC use?
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post #649 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post

Really? Are you saying that all the HD4XXX ATI cards are useless for HTPC use?

I'm saying that unless something changes since the last time I drug my desktop out to the living room and tested, the YCrCb output clipped BTB and WTW.

Also the 4000 series doesn't seem to have the drop down to set video levels globally (if you did want to go RGB full, then going RGB full with dynamic range to video would be perfect video), so you can't get things exactly right.

Nvidia can't do bitstreaming, the 4000 series can't do bistreaming.
the nvidia HDMI implenetations for onboard stuff have screwed up PVP black levels.

The list goes on and on, everything I've setup has done something wrong until the 5000 series. If you RGB limited could pass BTB and WTW then that would also be viable, I'm not sure why it doesnt.

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post #650 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I'm saying that unless something changes since the last time I drug my desktop out to the living room and tested, the YCrCb output clipped BTB and WTW.

Also the 4000 series doesn't seem to have the drop down to set video levels globally (if you did want to go RGB full, then going RGB full with dynamic range to video would be perfect video), so you can't get things exactly right.

Nope. The YCbCr output doesn't clip BTB/WTW for me. That's for sure.

And there's a tweak to have the Dynamic Range control on a HD4XXX, but setting dynamic range to video passes BTB and WTW??
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post #651 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post

Dynamic range set to video passes BTB and WTW??

in RGB full mode yes.

Actually in anymode, but if you are in RGB limited or YCrCb, then video black is output at like 29.

All though RGB full mode seems to be broken in HDMI mode right now (still outputs limited), but obviously works in DVI mode.

Of course if you ran in dynamic range - video, and RGB Full in order to calibrate w/ BTB and WTW you'd have to kill your desktop and apps.
Nvidia's had that option for a long time.

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post #652 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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But expanding if done in higher bit can be lossless too. Compressing will always lose you some values. Expanding while keeping it in RGB encoding surely keeps better quality across the range than RGB->YCbCr? It's interesting what you raise about PVP though. Definitely the 4000 series was giving me artifacts with YCbCr but the 5000 series doesn't, but this was for desktop colors, I didn't notice it on video.

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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

a variation of expanding video (and why not keep everything up to 255).

I would be very supportive of clipping black and maintaining super white.

Unfrotunetly you can only do that in software and isn't supported in the driver.

You can dial back the expansion and recover whites with the contrast slider in CCC.
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post #653 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 01:10 PM
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All though RGB full mode seems to be broken in HDMI mode right now (still outputs limited), but obviously works in DVI mode.

Nop, in my case (I use HDMI), RGB full outputs RGB full, not limited. I've checked it and using test patterns, I get all the levels from 0 to 255 untouched.

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But expanding if done in higher bit can be lossless too. Compressing will always lose you some values. Expanding while keeping it in RGB encoding surely keeps better quality across the range than RGB->YCbCr? It's interesting what you raise about PVP though. Definitely the 4000 series was giving me artifacts with YCbCr but the 5000 series doesn't, but this was for desktop colors, I didn't notice it on video.



You can dial back the expansion and recover whites with the contrast slider in CCC.

Ok, I would give a try to Dynamic Range setting making the tweak for my HD4850, but as I want to use madVR, I need to know if Dynamic Range setting affects MPC-HC using madVR. Can you check it for me so I can decide if I upgrade to 10.2 and make the tweak or not, please?
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post #654 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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You know what sotti.

I take back what I just said above. It seems outputting Limited on CCC to my monitor and letting the monitor know it's getting a 16-235 signal is giving me smooth gradients, while expanding it to full is giving me banding. Granted it's only a test pattern, but still. This changes things a bit. I'm going to do some more testing but I figure I'll be leaving everything in RGB Limited.
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post #655 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

You know what sotti.

I take back what I just said above. It seems outputting Limited on CCC to my monitor and letting the monitor know it's getting a 16-235 signal is giving me smooth gradients, while expanding it to full is giving me banding. Granted it's only a test pattern, but still. This changes things a bit. I'm going to do some more testing but I figure I'll be leaving everything in RGB Limited.

if RGB limited passed BTB and WTW I think RGB limited would be prefrable to YCrCb.

But pulling the CCC contrast slider back to get WTW is back to messing with the levels in a serious way.

Although I can live without WTW, I don't see the extra conversion back to YCrCb and being that detrimental although I'm going to take a meter to it tonight, so I'll let you know.

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post #656 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 01:21 PM
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Hey Guys,

After doing some more tests, I'm satisfied with what I'm getting.
I'll keep using RGB full, and let everything compressed to 16-235. YCrCb do give 0-255 output for videos as Sotti suggested, but according to my measurement the colour is WRONG, so be careful.
Even with YCrCb, I noticed that EVR prefers RGB input, and I compared two screenshots from both pixel formats (RGB full YUV 4:4:4) and it turns out the colour is identical. All in all, my conclusion is that ATI does a bad RGB/YUV conversion, and you guys should definately keep away from YUV output.
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post #657 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

if RGB limited passed BTB and WTW I think RGB limited would be prefrable to YCrCb.

But pulling the CCC contrast slider back to get WTW is back to messing with the levels in a serious way.

Although I can live without WTW, I don't see the extra conversion back to YCrCb and being that detrimental although I'm going to take a meter to it tonight, so I'll let you know.

My experience shows HD4850 with CCC9.12 is better than 5770.
Black level is consistent in all players, and YCrCb 4:4:4 was the best choice for me because it outputs perfect 0-255 luma cruve(5770 is wired, the luma ranges from 2-255 and the curse isn't straigt) and the colour is also correct. And you know what, with overlay as renderer, I get the same perfect result with MPC-HC.
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post #658 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 01:35 PM
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Ok, somy made the test (cheers, somy), and he confirmed that Dynamic Range setting doesn't affect madVR. And here is the reason, from it's author words:

"madVR aims to reach mathematically perfect playback quality. Other renderers usually fall short in quality. However, if the other renderers are reasonably close (some are, depending on your GPU, driver version and OS), it will be difficult to see the difference with normal video content. You may be able to see differences with "red on black" scenes (see screenshots 1st page), or with some "foggy" scenes (very slight brightness/color changes over large image areas, similar to gray ramps), or when zooming. Further madVR quality improvements may be in store for future versions (e.g. further improved chroma upsampling quality). One important benefit of madVR is that the image quality is identical, regardless of which graphics card, OS or driver version you're using (as long as the GPU is fast enough). This is definitely not the case with most other renderers.".

So for the best PQ: use madVR and set levels to match 16-255. Period.
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post #659 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

if RGB limited passed BTB and WTW I think RGB limited would be prefrable to YCrCb.

But pulling the CCC contrast slider back to get WTW is back to messing with the levels in a serious way.

Although I can live without WTW, I don't see the extra conversion back to YCrCb and being that detrimental although I'm going to take a meter to it tonight, so I'll let you know.

Thanks, I just did a bit more testing, and any levels change in CCC (including expansion and contrast slider set to 99) introduce banding. It seems all changes are being done in 8-bit, probably? If the desktop colors are being compressed in higher-than 8-bit, it could also be lossless, so would be the opposite of what I said above. Hmm...

This has been pretty enlightening. I think this just makes what I wanted from madVR or ffdshow w/dithering unnecessary, and I can go on using WinDVD or TMT3 for video playback. There was just one other problem I was having with the usual video pipeline and that was chroma upsampling. Watching some SD videos in full screen screwed up some high-contrast reds (red text on black for instance). madVR and ffdshow HW w/dithering looked better. I'm gonna see if I find that video.
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post #660 of 2707 Old 02-26-2010, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

Hey Guys,

After doing some more tests, I'm satisfied with what I'm getting.
I'll keep using RGB full, and let everything compressed to 16-235. YCrCb do give 0-255 output for videos as Sotti suggested, but according to my measurement the colour is WRONG, so be careful.
Even with YCrCb, I noticed that EVR prefers RGB input, and I compared two screenshots from both pixel formats (RGB full YUV 4:4:4) and it turns out the colour is identical. All in all, my conclusion is that ATI does a bad RGB/YUV conversion, and you guys should definately keep away from YUV output.

Sotti, please let us know your test result
In my test, YCrCb output gives me wrong colour.
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