ATI HD 5000 Series Known Problems (5870 5850 5770 5750 5670 5570 5450) - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

I think the color issue doesn't only affect MPC, but also affect commercial BD players. In my test I used PowerDVD 9 ultra r2528 in disc mode, and it still shows color problem.
I know Sotti's conclusion is different from mine, but I believe to monitor input is more accruate than external colour sensor.

I don't think just MPC is affected. All using standard EVR seem affected. But I do think disc mode is different, that is how I and others have spotted it. "File mode" and mpc-hc are just much greener especialy at low luminance.
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post #722 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

TMT3 and PDVD use EVR rendered onto an overlay surface (maybe as part of its protected video path) for Blu-ray disc mode playback . With YCbCr pixel format the black levels for this are consistent with file mode in those players and with other players.

If you use RGB you will find your black levels are no longer consistent when playing HD in file mode, eg. mkv, and when playing Blu-ray disc. So if you just use TMT3 the only "take out" is you need to use YCbCr, but if you read it does have some color issues when not using overlay and also, maybe, minor level glitches even when overlay is used (seen by Somy).

So I rip everything to Folder Structures (BR, HD-DVD, and DVD) for playback - I've set Catalyst to Full Range RGB, and the Avivo contrast setting to limited (16-235), Dynamic Contrast off, and I seem to get excellent quality using TMT3 plug in or standalong (using Catalyst 10.2) - no banding, and good shadow detail. Are you saying that there is in fact a green push in they way I'm using things, and I'd be better with YCbCr 4:4:4 in Catalyst, with limited contrast in Avivo?

All I use this PC for is playing back ripped content, so I'm not concerned about any other color rendering issues...


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post #723 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

I don't think just MPC is affected. All using standard EVR seem affected. But I do think disc mode is different, that is how I and others have spotted it. "File mode" and mpc-hc are just much greener especialy at low luminance.

The difference is PVP.

Disc mode is copy protection mode aka PVP mode.

File mode is just EVR.


With PVP they keep the contents of the disc encrypted in a seperate part of GPU memory.

As far as YCC goes, everything with PVP is okay, everything without PVP is fubar.

In RGB mode, everything with PVP has it's levels wrong, everything without PVP is correct.

So either mode you're screwed, unless you want to give up watching movies in disc mode, wich is sort of a non-start for the wife.
Hell even for me, if I have to get my keyboard or mouse I feel like I've failed on the HTPC front.

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post #724 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

So I rip everything to Folder Structures (BR, HD-DVD, and DVD) for playback - I've set Catalyst to Full Range RGB, and the Avivo contrast setting to limited (16-235), Dynamic Contrast off, and I seem to get excellent quality using TMT3 plug in or standalong (using Catalyst 10.2) - no banding, and good shadow detail. Are you saying that there is in fact a green push in they way I'm using things, and I'd be better with YCbCr 4:4:4 in Catalyst, with limited contrast in Avivo?

All I use this PC for is playing back ripped content, so I'm not concerned about any other color rendering issues...


Thanks

Theoretically Full Range RGB w/ AVIVO DR to limited would be perfect, although it would screw up your desktop (and games and pictures).

Unfortunetly with the 5 series Full range RGB is actually still Limited RGB, so your desktop looks okay, but if you are using DR on limited you have really grey blacks (of course if you calibrated for that they look okay, but it doesn't match your cable box).

If you use file mode exclusively in TMT3, RGB Limited (since that works as advertised) w/ DR on Full.

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post #725 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:37 AM
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So are you saying for sure that PVP is used, even for unencrypted sources like AVS-HD, when disc mode is used? In all commercial players?

It is clear that PVP causes this behaviour but it is not clear that PVP is the only way to get it or the underlying reason. Arcsoft say they use EVR and overlay combined, maybe that is part of PVP. But just using overlay seems to do much the same (although that has downsides in resizing quality etc.). It is not clear to me if others, like mpc-hc, could use EVR + overlay, or if the only way to do that is to fully implement PVP i.e. very unlikely to happen.
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post #726 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I think they are showing exactly the same thing.

Also if you look at the full data and not just the screenshots I posted, you'd see I used the radience XD as a refrence source and the results for my display between YCC and RGB Video levels. The difference between the two is within the margin of error for the probe.

Aren't we agreeing? There is just too much green, the red and blue channel are fine, green is high.

You mentioned the color is fine when playing BD, but my test shows even with commercial BD player (in my case PDVD 9 Ultra R2528), the color is still wrong. And it's not just green, but red is also off:
http://www.maimuzi.com/HTPC/2.JPG
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post #727 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:43 AM
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Anyone who still uses HD4XXX can try overlay mixer in MPC-HC or any commercial BD player such as powerDVD 9, I got perfect result in both cases with my HD4850 (+CCC9.12 or later).
It took ATI more than one year to fix driver for HD4XXX, and I hope it won't take them another 1 year to fix the problem with HD5XXX.
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post #728 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Theoretically Full Range RGB w/ AVIVO DR to limited would be perfect, although it would screw up your desktop (and games and pictures).

Unfortunetly with the 5 series Full range RGB is actually still Limited RGB, so your desktop looks okay, but if you are using DR on limited you have really grey blacks (of course if you calibrated for that they look okay, but it doesn't match your cable box).

If you use file mode exclusively in TMT3, RGB Limited (since that works as advertised) w/ DR on Full.

I agree with you that RGB full is the same as RGB limited, that's because your display prefers YUVm therefore ATI compress RGB full to YUV 16-235.
However, there are few users here such as Andy, who get full range RGB output. It is getting really wired now.
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post #729 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:47 AM
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For now the best solution for me is to use RGB pixel format, and I get correct colors and consistant black levels in both PDVD, MPC and desktop.The price I pay is losing WTW and BTB though.
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post #730 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:50 AM
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We all agree that HD5XXX output wired color when choosing YCrCb output, and we'd better let ATI aware of this and react to this ASAP.
Otherwise, just like the black level issue with HD4XXX, it will take them 1 year to fix the problem because noboday was complaining.
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post #731 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:55 AM
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I've PM'd "amdinput" who was looking in before Xmas, but I have no idea if tha account is still monitored.
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post #732 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

You mentioned the color is fine when playing BD, but my test shows even with commercial BD player (in my case PDVD 9 Ultra R2528), the color is still wrong. And it's not just green, but red is also off:
http://www.maimuzi.com/HTPC/2.JPG

But was that definitely in disc mode? File mode is the same as mpc-hc.
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post #733 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

You mentioned the color is fine when playing BD, but my test shows even with commercial BD player (in my case PDVD 9 Ultra R2528), the color is still wrong. And it's not just green, but red is also off:
http://www.maimuzi.com/HTPC/2.JPG

Were you in file mode or disc mode?

file mode would exhibit the issue.
disc mode using PVP would circumvent the issue.

I don't know how far that excursion is for red there, but it might be small enough not to show up on my meter, the difference between 1 -2 pixel steps doesn't always show up.

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post #734 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

I agree with you that RGB full is the same as RGB limited, that's because your display prefers YUVm therefore ATI compress RGB full to YUV 16-235.
However, there are few users here such as Andy, who get full range RGB output. It is getting really wired now.

Why should ATI do something I didn't ask for?
Isn't that the point of having Full and Compressed formats?

My TV doesn't have anykind of auto detect and doesn't care what I send it.

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post #735 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

I agree with you that RGB full is the same as RGB limited, that's because your display prefers YUVm therefore ATI compress RGB full to YUV 16-235.
However, there are few users here such as Andy, who get full range RGB output. It is getting really wired now.

Yes, my blacks are quite black with RGB Full/Avivo Contrast Limited, so that's why I'm a bit confused by the discourse here...they are TOO black (crushed) if I leave Avivo Contrast to Full...I must set that to Limited 16-235

My display is a Sony projector (VPL-VW85)
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post #736 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Were you in file mode or disc mode?

file mode would exhibit the issue.
disc mode using PVP would circumvent the issue.

I don't know how far that excursion is for red there, but it might be small enough not to show up on my meter, the difference between 1 -2 pixel steps doesn't always show up.

Can you be more specified on what is disc mode?
I played the AVSHD test video as ISO image in powerDVD, so I assume it's disc mode. I'm not sure if it takes protected path of not though.
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post #737 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Why should ATI do something I didn't ask for?
Isn't that the point of having Full and Compressed formats?

My TV doesn't have anykind of auto detect and doesn't care what I send it.

0-255 RGB output can be useful in some cases, such as video games/photo viewing (it makes your TV behaves the same as a PC monitor), it's not important though.
I feel it's wired because some people get this to work, others don't.

Anyway, some display, especially projectors such as mine seems only accept YUV input through HDMI, and RGB will only work if you connect via DVI or VGA.
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post #738 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Were you in file mode or disc mode?

file mode would exhibit the issue.
disc mode using PVP would circumvent the issue.

I don't know how far that excursion is for red there, but it might be small enough not to show up on my meter, the difference between 1 -2 pixel steps doesn't always show up.

That's probably why, I didn't see this problem when I use red filter from DVE disc either. The green, on the other hand, is obvious though.
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post #739 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Yes, my blacks are quite black with RGB Full/Avivo Contrast Limited, so that's why I'm a bit confused by the discourse here...they are TOO black (crushed) if I leave Avivo Contrast to Full...I must set that to Limited 16-235

My display is a Sony projector (VPL-VW85)

That sounds like "Disc mode/PVP to me". I do not have Blu-rays ripped to folder so i do not know how TMT handles it. It sounds like it still treats them like a disc (kind of logical as it must still use the Blu-ray Navigator/Java etc.) But in that case I think you will have a problem where all your file mode stuff is over compressed (0->16, 16->32). If you have AVS-HD try opening 00020.m2ts as a file and comparing it with the first "Basic Settings" pattern, when loaded as a disc.
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post #740 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:26 AM
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True, I did use the BD menu to choose the test pattern. I went to MISC patterns first and select the first 1, then I go back to main menu and choose the color test. I only used test pattern from MISC though, the basic settings are difficult to use IMO.
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post #741 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

Can you be more specified on what is disc mode?
I played the AVSHD test video as ISO image in powerDVD, so I assume it's disc mode. I'm not sure if it takes protected path of not though.

If you mount the iso and open the virtual drive letter in PDVD that is disc mode. If you mount the iso but then manually load the .m2ts file (00020.m2ts for the "basic settings", inc. black level chart, 00005.m2ts for "misc settings", inc. full ramp) that is file mode.
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post #742 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:30 AM
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I'm now sure I was useing DISC mode, I've just double checked it, and the result is the same. We need to bring this to ATI and hopefully they can fix YUV output soon.
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post #743 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

Can you be more specified on what is disc mode?
I played the AVSHD test video as ISO image in powerDVD, so I assume it's disc mode. I'm not sure if it takes protected path of not though.

yeah the AVSHD ISO in powerDVD it sounds like you were playing it through the menu, as opposed to hunting through the directory structure.

I got different results. I feel like my results are fairly scientific as your's look as well.

What video card are you using?

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post #744 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

That's probably why, I didn't see this problem when I use red filter from DVE disc either. The green, on the other hand, is obvious though.

Even green is not very obvious using filters, IMHO or my eyes(!). It is because most of the test patterns for using filters have 75% luminance plus and the majority of the green push, as you can see from Sotti's charts and "by eye" is in the low luminance.
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post #745 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

yeah the AVSHD ISO in powerDVD it sounds like you were playing it through the menu, as opposed to hunting through the directory structure.

I got different results. I feel like my results are fairly scientific as your's look as well.

What hardware are you using?

FWIW, I agree with you Sotti!
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post #746 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:35 AM
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Anyone got a twitter account?

Could someone twitter "CatalystMaker" with a link to Sotti's excellent charts.
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post #747 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

yeah the AVSHD ISO in powerDVD it sounds like you were playing it through the menu, as opposed to hunting through the directory structure.

I got different results. I feel like my results are fairly scientific as your's look as well.

What video card are you using?

I'm using HD5770 graphics card, and I'm connecting to my projector Panasonic PT-AE3000 via Onkyo 906 AV receiver (HDMI pass through).
I'm sure it's the problem at least with HD5770 because I didn't get any problem with HD4850 with CCC 9.12+.
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post #748 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jong1 View Post

Even green is not very obvious using filters, IMHO or my eyes(!). It is because most of the test patterns for using filters have 75% luminance plus and the majority of the green push, as you can see from Sotti's charts and "by eye" is in the low luminance.

Yeah, I agree it's difficult to see the difference.
Machine won't lie, and it tells me the input is wrong then it's wrong no matter I see it or not.
Anyway, the end test by using a filter or color meter isn't optimal in my opinion because the result is limited by capability of the display and settings (brightness, contrast, hue, color) of the display.
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post #749 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

Yeah, I agree it's difficult to see the difference.
Machine won't lie, and it tells me the input is wrong then it's wrong no matter I see it or not.

Yeah one day i will splash out on some measuring kit. On the other hand, if I didn't, and never visited this forum I'd be much happier!
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post #750 of 2707 Old 03-02-2010, 08:44 AM
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Haha, I feel the same, but I'm afraid that to protect your investment, calibration and configuration is one necessary step.
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