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post #901 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

Why do you say this?:



Your projector does accept RGB on the account that it doesn't look like this when you output RGB pixel format.

Also, it seems you're getting the same levels in Avivo DR RGB Full and in YCbCr 4:4:4, but in RGB full you don't receive WTW/BTB. I think your receiver might be clipping them, instead of the card doing it. Did you see if setting your input to EXPAND or NORMAL changed that particular thing? You wouldn't see levels change probably, but WTW and BTB might get passed in one of those options.

Andy,

You get the point, DR settings works differently in RGB full and YCC 4:4:4 output. With powerDVD in disc mode:
1) YCC with DR full: 0-255 output with BTB and WTW, the color issue is presented.
2) YCC with DR limited: 0-255 is compressed to 16-235 and then output. Strangely the color is better (values are still wrong) in this mode.
3) RGB full with DR full: 16-235 output without BTB and WTW, colour is perfect. There is nothing lost in desktop (verified by http://www.tedfelix.com/Photography/...20Original.png) so I don't believe anything is clipped.
4) RGB full with DR limited: 0-255 is compressed to 16-235 and then output.

Anyway, DR full means:
1) almost untouched YCC output when choosing YCC pixel format, no expansion and no compression.
2) expand video level to PC level when choosing RGB pixel format
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post #902 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickpicker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post

Tulli,

Do you know what does this section do:
(25-34) Color Characteristics
Red Chromaticity : Rx = 0.626 Ry = 0.330
Green Chromaticity : Gx = 0.206 Gy = 0.696
Blue Chromaticity : Bx = 0.150 By = 0.080
Default White Point: Wx = 0.290 Wy = 0.320

That's the color primaries for the display, useful e.g. when creating a custom 3D-LUT for madVR.

The problem is, of course, that the manufacturer sets those values for each device of the product family, i.e. they are not compensated for small deviations in the manufacturing process, or the age or operating temperature of your tv.

Sure? I have the exact same TV than Andy (KRP-500A), but in the EDID that I get from my TV, the color primaries are different than the Andy's ones (I can't do it now, but I'll post them later). Is it possible that those primaries are the exact coordinates for each individual display?
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post #903 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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They might be what you've set on your display. Have you tried changing the color settings in your display and see if those EDID numbers change?
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post #904 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

They might be what you've set on your display. Have you tried changing the color settings in your display and see if those EDID numbers change?

I've just tried it, changing the color settings in the display, and the color primaries in the EDID don't change, they're always the same:

Color characteristics
Default color space...... Non-sRGB
Display gamma............ 2,20
Red chromaticity......... Rx 0,683 - Ry 0,317
Green chromaticity....... Gx 0,313 - Gy 0,581
Blue chromaticity........ Bx 0,139 - By 0,050
White point (default).... Wx 0,289 - Wy 0,280
Additional descriptors... None
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post #905 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Weird that yours and mine are different. Mine is a 500M if that matters. Doesn't yours come with a tuner (i.e. it's a TV)? Are you in Japan or Europe?
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post #906 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

Weird that yours and mine are different. Mine is a 500M if that matters. Doesn't yours come with a tuner (i.e. it's a TV)? Are you in Japan or Europe?

Yes, it's a TV and comes with a separate media receiver. I'm in Spain, so the only difference is the letter (A<>M). Would it be that or the EDID is telling the color primaries for each individual display?
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post #907 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe the M didn't come out in Europe, but in Japan, A is TV and M is monitor only. The A aren't available in the US. Mine doesn't have a tuner and the speakers are optional.
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post #908 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

Maybe the M didn't come out in Europe, but in Japan, A is TV and M is monitor only. The A aren't available in the US. Mine doesn't have a tuner and the speakers are optional.

Well, mine has a tuner, so maybe that's the difference and that's why the color primaries are different too...
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post #909 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post


@sotti

I'm afraid I don't understand the terminology you use here.

Intuition tells me "video content" are e.g. Blu-ray movies encoded to YV12, "PC content" are e.g. screencaps encoded from RGB24.

What do you mean by "video levels" and "PC levels" wrt video content? I'm not aware of any Blu-ray movies encoded to anything other than YV12, and sourced from anything other than video level content.

I find this very confusing. I think the conversation might become much clearer if instead of using such permuations/matrices people would actually write what kind of content they are refering to in real-world terms.

Personally, I use the HTPC solely for watching Blu-ray movies backed-up to HDD, using MPC-HC (player), CoreAVC/ffdshow (software decoder), madVR (renderer). So which content would that be in your matrix? I'm afraid I have no idea.
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post #910 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post

Sure? I have the exact same TV than Andy (KRP-500A), but in the EDID that I get from my TV, the color primaries are different than the Andy's ones (I can't do it now, but I'll post them later). Is it possible that those primaries are the exact coordinates for each individual display?

Well, you have an expensive Kuro, so it's possible.

On the other hand, if I use a custom 3dlut (built with help from your excellent explanation at Doom9, by the way) for my Panasonic using the EDID primaries, colors are way off, so due to any of those factors my tv doesn't match the manufacturer's primaries at all.
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post #911 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickpicker View Post

Well, you have an expensive Kuro, so it's possible.

On the other hand, if I use a custom 3dlut (built with help from your excellent explanation at Doom9, by the way) for my Panasonic using the EDID primaries, colors are way off, so due to any of those factors my tv doesn't match the manufacturer's primaries at all.

Really? I've made a custom 3dlut with my primaries, and the colors are now much more accurate than before... How have you done it? And how do you know that the colors using your custom 3dlut are way off? Because maybe they were wrong before and now they're ok...
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post #912 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post

Really? I've made a custom 3dlut with my primaries, and the colors are now much more accurate than before... How have you done it? And how do you know that the colors using your custom 3dlut are way off? Because maybe they were wrong before and now they're ok...

I've used the DIVAS test sequence from Burosch (M2TS), played back in MPC-HC, madVR as renderer.

I know they are off because switching between 3dlut and PS inside madVR reveals that the 3dlut swallows about 20% of the highest intensity R/G/B bars, i.e. I get severe posterization. This all happens at any mode of the Panasonic (Normal, Cinema, Dynamic, Eco) and with or without factory settings.

Clearly the actual primaries of the display did not match the EDID primaries - in my case. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that a high-end display like the Kuro provides actual primaries of EDID, though.
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post #913 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

jong, can you try the .inf Tulli posted above with my EDID, and see if you can get Full RGB pixel format to show you a non-compressed desktop? So, for instance, in the same scenario of that picture you took, PowerDVD and the desktop will show the same black levels.

I tried it and I got "unsupported signal" on my TV after the Starting Windows logo! And I could even get F8 to work, I think because this is still a dual boot system, after XP migration, and I had reduced the timeout to 0 secs! Had to dig out my W7 installation disc and restore to before the driver install.
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post #914 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickpicker View Post

@sotti

I'm afraid I don't understand the terminology you use here.

Intuition tells me "video content" are e.g. Blu-ray movies encoded to YV12, "PC content" are e.g. screencaps encoded from RGB24.

What do you mean by "video levels" and "PC levels" wrt video content? I'm not aware of any Blu-ray movies encoded to anything other than YV12, and sourced from anything other than video level content.

I find this very confusing. I think the conversation might become much clearer if instead of using such permuations/matrices people would actually write what kind of content they are refering to in real-world terms.

Personally, I use the HTPC solely for watching Blu-ray movies backed-up to HDD, using MPC-HC (player), CoreAVC/ffdshow (software decoder), madVR (renderer). So which content would that be in your matrix? I'm afraid I have no idea.

No trust me the matrix is 1000X better than what words can do.
But your right it needs a legend.

The top is sort of combo (since it's really a 3d chart).

PC content is content that originates on the PC and has refrence black at 0. So games, pictures, web browsers, netflix, youtube, ect....

Video content is content that has reference black set to 16. mkv, avi, DVDs, Blu-Ray all fit into this. My matrix also assumes you are using a playback app that is hardware accelerated so that the content goes through the video drivers DXVA interface.

So the first part first two columns are if your display is expecting video levels (TVs) the second is if your display is expecing PC levels (Monitors).

try and explain every scenario in words and that is much, much more difficult.

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post #915 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 10:52 AM
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Ah, much clearer now, thanks.

So assuming that I only play Blu-rays (from HDD over madVR) on a tv set (EDID says it support YCrBr 4:4:4, YCrBr 4:2:2), I'd go for the "Video levels - video content" column, is that correct?
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post #916 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickpicker View Post

Ah, much clearer now, thanks.

So assuming that I only play Blu-rays (from HDD over madVR) on a tv set (EDID says it support YCrBr 4:4:4, YCrBr 4:2:2), I'd go for the "Video levels - video content" column, is that correct?

yes

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post #917 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 12:46 PM
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I have found that if I use the profile.xml mod to stop the audio popping that my computer locks up with a blue screen with lines (note: not the old standard blue screen crash) probably like the grey screen I have heard of. This is when I set everything as the want_0 number. For me and my 5670 these numbers are 159 and 300. Tried 200 and 300 and did the same thing.

When I use the amd gpu tool this does not seem to happen.

I am thinking about flashing my bios so I never have to deal with the software, but I am wondering if by doing this will I always be stuck at the lower numbers, even in DXVA mode or will it override like the software xml fix does?
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post #918 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

yes

I'm confused now. So you're getting different desktop levels for Pixel formats RGB Full and RGB Limited then? From what Somy has written recently, I think he does too. So, now Jong is the only one remaining that is actually getting the same desktop output in RGB Full and Limited pixel formats?

(Jong, sorry about the .inf. Safe mode booting doesn't even work?)
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post #919 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 01:25 PM
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Another thing I haven't quite understood fully: When the tv set says in its EDID that it understands YCrBr 4:4:4 and YCrBr 4:2:2 only, what happens to RGB-rendered data on the way to the display? Does the ATI driver convert it to YCrBr? Or Windows? Does RGB24 fit into YCrBr 4:4:4? Or is it just a different planar representation of the same color/brightness information?
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post #920 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickpicker View Post

Another thing I haven't quite understood fully: When the tv set says in its EDID that it understands YCrBr 4:4:4 and YCrBr 4:2:2 only, what happens to RGB-rendered data on the way to the display? Does the ATI driver convert it to YCrBr? Or Windows? Does RGB24 fit into YCrBr 4:4:4? Or is it just a different planar representation of the same color/brightness information?

Bear in mind that when outputting in YCbCr you cannot use madVR, because it only outputs RGB, hence you will have a conversion from RGB to YCbCr at the drivers levels, which will result in quality losses.
So, when using madVR, RGB output is always the preferable option.
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post #921 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm pretty sure anything that doesn't use PVP, as of now at least, is converted to RGB first.

And nitpicker, just in case, if it was my EDID you were referring to, my monitor does take RGB. Maybe those listed are "other" options, cause RGB monitor type is described somewhere else.
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post #922 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 02:04 PM
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Well, RGB output in madVR means it's rendering to the render surface, and from there the ATI driver picks it up as RGB and "sends" RGB to the display. However, my display says it can only do YCrBr, so what happens here?
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post #923 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

I'm confused now. So you're getting different desktop levels for Pixel formats RGB Full and RGB Limited then? From what Somy has written recently, I think he does too. So, now Jong is the only one remaining that is actually getting the same desktop output in RGB Full and Limited pixel formats?

(Jong, sorry about the .inf. Safe mode booting doesn't even work?)

no I'm not, I did that chart after playing with the thing for something like 20 minutes, because I was expecting RGB Full to work, sinced it worked with my 4850.

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post #924 of 2707 Old 03-05-2010, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh OK. I was about to have a breakdown here. Still at the brink
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post #925 of 2707 Old 03-06-2010, 07:09 AM
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Thought I'd post a followup to my original post about the issue with white pixels in 7MC. So far no solution, but I've been getting screengrabs and trying to replicate the issue in other software without success. I'm still not sure what's going on but here are some pictures. As you can see there is no corruption in any other software except 7MC.

I ran the Unigine benchmark with max settings including 8x antialiasing to really stress the card and still no problems even after looping it several times.





















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post #926 of 2707 Old 03-09-2010, 07:35 AM
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I can barely understand the colorspace issues, so yet another "please simplify this for me" question:

Media center PC - primary uses are:

Bluray Playback (TMT, standalone or through Media Center)
.mkv playback (probably through MPC-HC)
.avi/divx/etc playback (probably through MPC-HC)
watching SD TV through media center
minor amount of photo viewing

Depending on what my TV can support, I should either choose

RGB limited + DR 0-255 or YCrCb + DR 0-255? This should result in video playback being correct, but desktop/web browsing/picture viewing will have grey blacks. Correct?

Does using Media Center to playback these files have any effect? Should I be forcing playback through MPC-HC/TMT standalone?
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post #927 of 2707 Old 03-09-2010, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvarisco View Post

I can barely understand the colorspace issues, so yet another "please simplify this for me" question:

Media center PC - primary uses are:

Bluray Playback (TMT, standalone or through Media Center)
.mkv playback (probably through MPC-HC)
.avi/divx/etc playback (probably through MPC-HC)
watching SD TV through media center
minor amount of photo viewing

Depending on what my TV can support, I should either choose

RGB limited + DR 0-255 or YCrCb + DR 0-255? This should result in video playback being correct, but desktop/web browsing/picture viewing will have grey blacks. Correct?

Does using Media Center to playback these files have any effect? Should I be forcing playback through MPC-HC/TMT standalone?

My results where the only option that gave consistent black levels (the most important thing) was YCrCb + DR 0-255. There is a small color error, that is measurable, but small.

RGB limited + DR 0-255 gave me crushed blacks on blu-rays (completely unacceptble, and uncorrectable).

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post #928 of 2707 Old 03-09-2010, 08:23 AM
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Where do you set DR 0 - 255 is that 4.4.4 setting of YCrCb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

My results where the only option that gave consistent black levels (the most important thing) was YCrCb + DR 0-255. There is a small color error, that is measurable, but small.

RGB limited + DR 0-255 gave me crushed blacks on blu-rays (completely unacceptble, and uncorrectable).

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post #929 of 2707 Old 03-09-2010, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

My results where the only option that gave consistent black levels (the most important thing) was YCrCb + DR 0-255. There is a small color error, that is measurable, but small.

RGB limited + DR 0-255 gave me crushed blacks on blu-rays (completely unacceptble, and uncorrectable).

In case there is still any doubt, these are exactly my findings and I am sticking with YCbCr as the less of two evils. I can' say I have really noticed the color error other than with the test patterns, but I realise others may be more sensitive and that certainly does not mean it is acceptable; It does need to be fixed.

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Where do you set DR 0 - 255 is that 4.4.4 setting of YCrCb?

No. "Video" "advanced color" settings. 5xxx series only.
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post #930 of 2707 Old 03-09-2010, 10:02 AM
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I just upgraded a GeForce 8800GT with an ATI 5850 and have notice mainly when using Windows 7 Media Center with ATI TV Tuner card that the picture looks overly bright, blacks are greyish and everything just seems washed out. With the 8800GT it was not like this (just tested, threw the card back in and it looked fine).

Question is, what could be causing this and has anyone noticed this? Is this the RGB issue as well?

Thanks!
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