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Rew452's Avatar Rew452 10:05 AM 09-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

But not the silent stream issue, correct? As noted, for me, the silent stream issue is still there during resume from pause and chapter skips...

It did work for me in 10.8 & 10.9; but I would ask if the new ATI driver(10.9) is any better than rhe current Realtek(2.40)?

Rew

SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 10:11 AM 09-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

It did work for me in 10.8 & 10.9; but I would ask if the new ATI driver(10.9) is any better than rhe current Realtek(2.40)?

Rew

That's a matter of opinion. Andy tells us that for exclusive mode the AMD driver was better, although I don't know if that's still the case. I'm using the AMD 10.9a HDMI driver with ReClock to fix the incompatibility that I've been talking about with TMT. Works fine until they update TMT for the newer drivers.
dabl's Avatar dabl 11:08 AM 09-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmone View Post

FYI - Upgraded to the Cat 10.9a and the bug is back

I posted in your thread about this specific issue but I was seeing this with v10.8 on a Win 7 64bit system with a 5850 card and a Denon 2809CI receiver. I was previously running v10.4

I submitted a bug report through the official channel. Did you?

Until they get more than one or two bug reports they won't even acknowledge it. And it goes without saying that ONLY posting in internet forums will NEVER get the bug fixed.

My workaround for the problem is to power off/on my Denon 2809ci receiver but it is annoying to be sure.
Rew452's Avatar Rew452 12:45 PM 09-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

That's a matter of opinion. Andy tells us that for exclusive mode the AMD driver was better, although I don't know if that's still the case. I'm using the AMD 10.9a HDMI driver with ReClock to fix the incompatibility that I've been talking about with TMT. Works fine until they update TMT for the newer drivers.

I was using Realtek with ReClock with 10.7 & 10.9 hot-fix and did not get the 3-4 second audio delay that I have got with either ATI audio driver.

The audio delay is actually a TMT problem.

And this is not the silent stream bug.

Is this correct??

Thanks
Rew
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 01:12 PM 09-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

I was using Realtek with ReClock with 10.7 & 10.9 hot-fix and did not get the 3-4 second audio delay that I have got with either ATI audio driver.

The audio delay is actually a TMT problem.

And this is not the silent stream bug.

Is this correct??

Thanks
Rew

Yes, that's absolutely correct. TMT needs to be updated and from what I understand that's being worked on according to the arcsoft forum.
Rew452's Avatar Rew452 01:28 PM 09-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Yes, that's absolutely correct. TMT needs to be updated and from what I understand that's being worked on according to the arcsoft forum.

Thanks!
I guess I wiil go backto RealTek for now until TMT get's it's patch.

Rew
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 01:29 PM 09-18-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

Thanks!
I guess I wiil go backto RealTek for now until TMT get's it's patch.

Rew

Not that realtek is any better. If you're using ReClock it'll be ok, but, the Realtek and AMD 10.8+ drivers both have the same problem...a lack of compatibility in TMT 185 that cause various audio related problems.
vladd's Avatar vladd 01:32 PM 09-18-2010
The simple way to tell if you are experiencing the silent stream bug is to open IE and click some links. If you hear the click sound when you click on them, you do not have the silent stream bug. This bug is only when outputting PCM sound in shared mode. When bitstreaming, you are using exclusive mode and when pausing or seeking, the stream is broken to the receiver. If there is a delay in audio when playback starts again, that is a player/decoder issue and not a driver issue (which is where the silent stream bug exists).
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 01:42 PM 09-18-2010
Thanks, Vladd. That is exactly right. And technically it's "fixed" for the most part in 10.8+. However, there is a situation that probably confuses the issue a little bit. First, as we know, TMT needs an update for the latest drivers. That's fine. But, when you exit a player that is using exlusive mode, and bitstreaming is using exclusive mode, it breaks connection to the receiver. In that case, the connection won't be re-established until a non-exclusive mode windows sound is played. After that it'll maintain the connection. I consider this a mini-bug in the way they fixed it. The driver should be dropping the exclusive mode lock and then re-establishing the PCM connection but it's not doing that. That's my only real gripe.
vladd's Avatar vladd 01:50 PM 09-18-2010
Yeah, I forgot to mention that part.
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 01:54 PM 09-18-2010
Still, we have to give AMD credit for several things here. They did make a REALLY good attempt to finally address and fix the silent stream bug. In the process of that, they broke the over/underscan setting application. We complained LOUDLY about that and they did address it in a hotfix like we asked. This shows a company that is at least trying. (And no, before you ask, I still don't [yet] regret the nVidia 450 purchase...I may when I get the card on Monday and find out what kinds of issues I'm looking at with it. )
vladd's Avatar vladd 06:56 PM 09-18-2010
To be honest, I'm not really bothered by bugs that can be easily fixed. It took me what? A few hours to come up with a fix for the overscan issue? There are going to be bugs in every driver and as software engineers, we know that. I'd rather they be bugs that I or someone else can easily work around. I'll trade the silent stream bug for the overscan bug any day. And I do give props to AMD for acknowledging that the overscan bug would not be fixed until 10.10 and then releasing the hotfix just a few days later.
markyb's Avatar markyb 02:46 AM 09-19-2010
I have just installed the 5670 on a Gigabyte motherboard H57M-USB3.
For some reason when I use the HDMI output the display does not use the full viewable area. There is a black border all around the edge of the screen.
I don't have this problem with VGA and don't have this problem with other Media PCs.

Can anyone suggest a solution?
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 04:46 AM 09-19-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

To be honest, I'm not really bothered by bugs that can be easily fixed. It took me what? A few hours to come up with a fix for the overscan issue? There are going to be bugs in every driver and as software engineers, we know that. I'd rather they be bugs that I or someone else can easily work around. I'll trade the silent stream bug for the overscan bug any day. And I do give props to AMD for acknowledging that the overscan bug would not be fixed until 10.10 and then releasing the hotfix just a few days later.

Completely agreed on that.
Axel's Avatar Axel 05:53 AM 09-19-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by markyb View Post

I have just installed the 5670 on a Gigabyte motherboard H57M-USB3.
For some reason when I use the HDMI output the display does not use the full viewable area. There is a black border all around the edge of the screen.
I don't have this problem with VGA and don't have this problem with other Media PCs.

Can anyone suggest a solution?

This sounds like the typical underscan setting that is enabled by default in CCC. You can easily adjust it in the CCC menu.

(Not being able to adjust this setting permanently caused quite a bit of grief around here but got recently fixed.)

____
Axel
thrang's Avatar thrang 07:45 AM 09-19-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Thanks, Vladd. That is exactly right. And technically it's "fixed" for the most part in 10.8+. However, there is a situation that probably confuses the issue a little bit. First, as we know, TMT needs an update for the latest drivers. That's fine. But, when you exit a player that is using exlusive mode, and bitstreaming is using exclusive mode, it breaks connection to the receiver. In that case, the connection won't be re-established until a non-exclusive mode windows sound is played. After that it'll maintain the connection. I consider this a mini-bug in the way they fixed it. The driver should be dropping the exclusive mode lock and then re-establishing the PCM connection but it's not doing that. That's my only real gripe.

Well, I stumbled backwards a few step after this recent discussion of the silent stream bug - from my perspective, all I care about is watching ripped content though my player, TMT3, so the description of the silent stream bug seemed to largely mirror the description of behavior of TMT3 when resuming from pause or chapter skipping - thus my confusion when 10.8/10.9/10.9a didn't "address" this for me. Compound this with the statements that one needs ReClock in bitstream mode for TMT3 to "work" with the current ATI drivers until Arcsoft releases an upgrade, with "working" defined as not addressing the loss of audio when resuming from pause or skipping, well....you can see how this is fairly confusing...

So the way I understand it is:

- Only way to bitstream from TMT3 with the current ATI drivers is to use ReClock in bitstream mode
- This does not fix any audio loss with TMT3 playback during pausing/skipping, as this must be addressed by Arcsoft with an upgrade/patch


A few related things

- In this setup, I noticed some static of Dolby TrueHD playback yesterday on a few different movies. and a couple of very brief audio drops - I haven't watched any TrueHD tracks in a while, so I don't know how long with actually was a condition, or is it unique to my setup...

- SamuriHL: I think you got the nVidia 450 card - have you posted any experiences with it vs the ATI solution?



Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

To be honest, I'm not really bothered by bugs that can be easily fixed. It took me what? A few hours to come up with a fix for the overscan issue? There are going to be bugs in every driver and as software engineers, we know that. I'd rather they be bugs that I or someone else can easily work around. I'll trade the silent stream bug for the overscan bug any day. And I do give props to AMD for acknowledging that the overscan bug would not be fixed until 10.10 and then releasing the hotfix just a few days later.

I think the work people like you do is commendable, I appreciate all the help from everyone here (and I try to help as much as my knowledge permits).

My issue is that in the larger context, all these workarounds, fixes, customizations, and amalgam of poorly support commercial software, freeware, and various other software extensions exemplifies how broken the platform is for a truly simple and pain-free experience. I've said it before, but a $150 stand-alone player is pretty much flawless, save for the occasional need to upgrade firmware. Here, we also struggle to go a few weeks without something biting us in the ass, with bug after bug, anomaly after anomaly, weirdness, unexpected behavior, etc. The promise of this platform (for me, having all my DVD's and BR's ripped for a Kaleidoscape-like experience), is very appealing - but it seems the framework of Windows and the wild west approach to software and driver development makes us the permanent beta test site for something that never seems to reach Gold....
Bud B's Avatar Bud B 09:01 AM 09-19-2010
Hi Thrang,
You said,
Quote:


I've said it before, but a $150 stand-alone player is pretty much flawless, save for the occasional need to upgrade firmware.

I can only speak for myself but Playing Blu-Rays has never been a Problem for me, with my XFX Radeon HD5770 card and PowerDVD.

For me it has been more Computer related issues such as Dual Monitor, Resolutions and actually getting to know and working with ATI's CCC.
I have been an Nvidia Graphics card guy all of my life and so I am new to ATI Graphics Cards.
I am still feeling this out to see if I stay with ATI or go back to Nvidia.
Though Nvidia has it's issues as well.

Knock on wood my Audio stream to my Pioneer VSX 1020K has always been excellent and I am sure that PowerDVD may have something to do with that!
So Watching and Listening to any material through PowerDVD has been Good & Stable.
If I had big issues there, since I am more of an AV user than Gaming, I probably would have jerked this card by now!
I am now trying to set up 2 Profiles with my CCC, Extended I have but Duplicate is limiting my resolution to 1280 x 720.
My Computer Monitor is a new Samsung XL2370HD @ 1920x1080 and my LG HDTV is 720P but will take 1080i,
yet still 1280x720 is the most resolution I can get at this time in Duplicate. I wrote to XFX so I'll see what they say.

But my problems really have no comparison with a Standalone Blu-Ray Player!
The only time that I actually put a Disc into my LG Burner/Player is to either Copy it to my Hard Drive or Burn a Disc.
I really like the fact that I can open PowerDVD, select what I want to watch, click on it and it plays.
No more going to my collection, opening a Blu-Ray case, loading the Disc, hoping that it is not dirty or scratched, so my Video does not stall
or stop completely and right when I'm really in to the movie or program etc..etc.
That's just too frustrating and time consuming..LOL! My Video is playing before I even have to get up!
Not to mention that my discs are copied once and then put back on the shelf to stay Safe and Tucked away in pristine condition!

NO...I am trying to do so much more than a Stand-A-Lone Blu-Ray Player!

That is as old hat as (unfortunately) Music CD's! I do still buy CD's though, I like the full packaging!
But they all get transferred to my Computer & MP3 Player too.
Don't you get it? My computer IS my Media Center! Todays HTPC's are to all things AV as the MP3 Player was to Music and carrying CD's!
I just got a new Ford Escape that has a slot for CD's, as well as an Aux port for MP3 players, I saw that and said to myself,
WOW when will I have CD's in the car again?!
That's a standalone CD Player that will rarely get used..That's where we are going, why Limit yourself to a $150.00 Player
when you can take the blinders off and "Have it All!"
Embrace the Future...Don't be afraid of it..We ALL in this Forum are forging into the Future of HTPC's and what will be the Home's,
"Total Media Center!"
All you have to do is look around to the NetFlix's, Google's new Streaming, etc...etc...you are seeing it everywhere and
everyone knows that it is coming!
It has to have the current Providers of Cable and Satelite asking how it will all end up and where there place in the Future will be!
Moves are being everyday as we forge ahead in our own little Forum...I Feel IT, I know that you do too!

Were on the cutting edge of what an HTPC will truly become!
Though we complain, it's getting better all the Time and we know it..BUT
Can we be to blame that in the year 2010, WE are just a bit impatient..We want "It ALL & NOW!" LOL!
If WE knew the Future (like the Sports Book in "Back to the Future") and how all this Home AV stuff will play out and had the $$$ to back the right horse if you will,
there will be a lot of $$$ to make!

GO FINS!

Later,
Bud B
thrang's Avatar thrang 09:26 AM 09-19-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud B View Post

Hi Thrang,

But my problems really have no comparison with a Standalone Blu-Ray Player!
I am trying to do so much more than that!

Bud B

In one way I agree, but my point is I (and it seems so many others) cannot get consistent, audio-perfect, stutter-free, correct color space, auto-frame-rate-sensing, reliable playback for any extended period of time. We seem to hit a magic combination for a while, but it's fleeting...

Now, to be clear, I NEVER play back discs from their original media - the WHOLE point for me is to do what you say - get a lot more out of this approach than a stand alone player. So maybe if I used my HTPC just as a disc based playback device, I would be ok. But then, why bother? I have stand alone players, and even a Sony Blu Ray disc changer, if I wanted that.

Just the concept of something like ReClock, while commendable in so many ways as a free way to meet a need, is, by its existence, an acknowledgement of all the potential pitfalls of using a PC.

How long is ArcSoft taking to fix the audio issue with the latest ATI drivers? So many nagging issues in so many different areas, it's really wacky in many ways, but we (myself included!) still try to get this to work...

Another example of the shifting sands - I've been experiencing the 24p stutter issue for some time. The most recent ATI driver (10.9a) has now changed the issue to one of brief video drops as opposed to the 20 seconds or so of more obvious stuttering. It's better, so not a complaint, but where is/was the problem? I've spent countless hours trying to optimize the system, trying PCM and ReClock, etc... so is/was the 24p issue more driver related than originally thought? Or is it some unique combination on HW/SW on my system that creates a different experience for me than for (the collective) you?

I love technology, but at times this borders on masochism...
Bud B's Avatar Bud B 10:26 AM 09-19-2010
WOW! I am so lucky that absolutely none of the problems that you speak of, I have had, granted I am just watching Video both Blu-Ray and regular DVD and Streaming Video.
Today I will be streaming the Dolphins Game because unless they are playing a New York team the Dolphins are not on TV in Rochester!
My Apt. Complex will not allow Direct TV, they drilled too many holes without permission etc..etc.. CRAZY!
My Pioneer Kuro 50" downstairs is connected to a HP Pavillion Elite 112y with a Blu-Ray player and has never had a hiccup (Knock on Wood)
while performing any AV Tasks and connected to my Kuro via HDMI.

After reading your problems and if I was in that same boat, I would be looking at a Standalone Player as well!

I wonder if your problem is a HW/SW problem....
I will put this to the Forum...are there many in here that can relate to Thrang's problems?
Let US Know...

Bud B
PS. Nice Setup Thrang, I did not see what you are using for an HTPC listed, is the OS on one of the drives in the T5?
onyx00's Avatar onyx00 07:49 PM 09-19-2010
Well from my experience this card is full of issues. I personally can't sacrifice time on this thing when I have a solution that works 100% for everything I have ever done with it (SageTV HD200). Dolby TrueHD bitstream etc., etc. work perfectly. No issues. So SageTV FTW. ATI HD5000 series, FAIL SAUCE.

I'll wait for the next iteration. But I'm glad some of you are having success with it!
Andy o's Avatar Andy o 12:35 AM 09-20-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

But not the silent stream issue, correct? As noted, for me, the silent stream issue is still there during resume from pause and chapter skips...

I asked you if you were bitstreaming, because when bitstreaming this is normal, it's not the silent stream bug. When you're decoding to PCM, the audio should not be cut when you pause or skip, even if you have the silent stream bug (unless you're using exclusive mode).

Yeah, it's confusing.
Andy o's Avatar Andy o 12:49 AM 09-20-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

That's a matter of opinion. Andy tells us that for exclusive mode the AMD driver was better, although I don't know if that's still the case. I'm using the AMD 10.9a HDMI driver with ReClock to fix the incompatibility that I've been talking about with TMT. Works fine until they update TMT for the newer drivers.

It wasn't strictly that exclusive mode was "better", it was just that when closing ReClock specifically, using exclusive mode, the sound would come out slow and lower frequency. Like playing one sampling rate in a different sampling rate. It was only the combination of ReClock and the Realtek driver though. This didn't happen either with foobar2000+Realtek, nor with ReClock+ATI.
Andy o's Avatar Andy o 12:56 AM 09-20-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud B View Post

WOW! I am so lucky that absolutely none of the problems that you speak of, I have had, granted I am just watching Video both Blu-Ray and regular DVD and Streaming Video.
[...]
My Pioneer Kuro 50" downstairs is connected to a HP Pavillion Elite 112y with a Blu-Ray player and has never had a hiccup (Knock on Wood)
while performing any AV Tasks and connected to my Kuro via HDMI.

It seems us with Pioneer displays aren't only lucky for having the already-extinct blackest blacks in the industry, but also it doesn't give us levels troubles with ATI cards. Most others are having trouble with Pixel format RGB Full outputting as it should.
jcgeny's Avatar jcgeny 01:21 AM 09-20-2010
pioneer is with panasonic , one of the few that does hardware for computers , like the first dvdwriter . for that experience i selected it for the receiver vsx 1019 that is connected to the x-fi hd using HDMI . never add troubles ;']
vladd's Avatar vladd 02:33 AM 09-20-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

It seems us with Pioneer displays aren't only lucky for having the already-extinct blackest blacks in the industry, but also it doesn't give us levels troubles with ATI cards. Most others are having trouble with Pixel format RGB Full outputting as it should.

Andy, would you mind using my getEDID tool and grabbing your EDID for me? I'm not able to pass BTB/WTW on my TV with my 5770 but my PS3 does it just fine. I'm hoping I can find something in the EDID that can fix it so I want to compare mine with a working one.
Andy o's Avatar Andy o 05:40 AM 09-20-2010
OK, I'll have it later today, I still have to swap cards. If I don't do it by today please remind me.
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 05:51 AM 09-20-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Well, I stumbled backwards a few step after this recent discussion of the silent stream bug - from my perspective, all I care about is watching ripped content though my player, TMT3, so the description of the silent stream bug seemed to largely mirror the description of behavior of TMT3 when resuming from pause or chapter skipping - thus my confusion when 10.8/10.9/10.9a didn't "address" this for me. Compound this with the statements that one needs ReClock in bitstream mode for TMT3 to "work" with the current ATI drivers until Arcsoft releases an upgrade, with "working" defined as not addressing the loss of audio when resuming from pause or skipping, well....you can see how this is fairly confusing...

So the way I understand it is:

- Only way to bitstream from TMT3 with the current ATI drivers is to use ReClock in bitstream mode
- This does not fix any audio loss with TMT3 playback during pausing/skipping, as this must be addressed by Arcsoft with an upgrade/patch


A few related things

- In this setup, I noticed some static of Dolby TrueHD playback yesterday on a few different movies. and a couple of very brief audio drops - I haven't watched any TrueHD tracks in a while, so I don't know how long with actually was a condition, or is it unique to my setup...

- SamuriHL: I think you got the nVidia 450 card - have you posted any experiences with it vs the ATI solution?

First, when using ReClock, I don't experience any of the audio problems with TMT you're discussing. I wouldn't doubt, however, that they're caused by the incompatibility with the latest drivers, so, I would test again when ArcSoft releases a patch for TMT to address the compatibility issue.

Second, my 450 comes today, mostly likely sometime this evening. I'll be throwing it in as soon as it comes and running it through its paces, so, I'll be able to compare tomorrow. For the record, Andy_O is going back to his 5770 card, so, that's not a good sign. For me there were a few reasons I went this route. The 6xxx cards are still a few weeks away and I wanted to address the issue of heat in my small case sooner while I had the money in my budget. And for the games I'll want to play on that machine, nearly half of them use PhysX, so, nVidia wasn't a bad choice for me. Plus I skipped a LOT of nVidia cards since my last one, so, I still have fond memories of my 8800. (My son is still using it to play games on). I also really wanted to see how well nVidia has jumped into the HTPC space with these cards. We shall see.
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 05:56 AM 09-20-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

It wasn't strictly that exclusive mode was "better", it was just that when closing ReClock specifically, using exclusive mode, the sound would come out slow and lower frequency. Like playing one sampling rate in a different sampling rate. It was only the combination of ReClock and the Realtek driver though. This didn't happen either with foobar2000+Realtek, nor with ReClock+ATI.

Doesn't NOT having those issues make it better?
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 05:58 AM 09-20-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

It seems us with Pioneer displays aren't only lucky for having the already-extinct blackest blacks in the industry, but also it doesn't give us levels troubles with ATI cards. Most others are having trouble with Pixel format RGB Full outputting as it should.

Yea, you are VERY lucky in that regard. It takes me sacrificing a chicken to get my black levels set properly. I know how to do it but if I forget to, it drives me nuts. Once they're set, it's magic. Incredible PQ. But, AMD if you're listening, it should not be so difficult to get it right!
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 06:00 AM 09-20-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgeny View Post

pioneer is with panasonic , one of the few that does hardware for computers , like the first dvdwriter . for that experience i selected it for the receiver vsx 1019 that is connected to the x-fi hd using HDMI . never add troubles ;']

I'm EXTREMELY happy with my 2 Pio receivers. I got a VSX21-TXH to replace my Onkyo 606 earlier this year. I just got a VSX 820-K for my bedroom a few weeks ago. Both absolutely rock.
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