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post #181 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spivonious View Post

Do we know for sure that it's WMV? SL can handle a lot more than just that.

On all of the Netflix movies that I've checked, yes I'm sure. Using packet captures I found that Netflix was sending separate WMV and WMA streams concurrently to my machine. Why separate streams for audio and video, I am not sure but that is what was being sent. I can only imagine that it is so they can upgrade to 5.1 sound at a later date without reencoding the video.

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Originally Posted by spivonious View Post

It seems that people with better graphics hardware get a better Netflix experience. Perhaps the increased memory bandwidth on the 5770 makes the difference.

The Silverlight video streams are VC-1 encoded and this could be the problem for some people. I remember that when Resident Evil: Extinction Bluray was first released, I and a couple of other people had major issues getting it to play properly. Strangely, other VC-1 encoded discs played fine, even at higher bitrates. This would again point to an encode issue though.
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post #182 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

On all of the Netflix movies that I've checked, yes I'm sure. Using packet captures I found that Netflix was sending separate WMV and WMA streams concurrently to my machine. Why separate streams for audio and video, I am not sure but that is what was being sent. I can only imagine that it is so they can upgrade to 5.1 sound at a later date without reencoding the video.

I think that's just how WMV works. WMV is a video-only format, so they package a WMA stream alongside of it for audio.
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post #183 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spivonious View Post

I think that's just how WMV works. WMV is a video-only format, so they package a WMA stream alongside of it for audio.

Nope. WMV movies can contain an audio stream within the WMV file: http://www.mediacollege.com/video/fo...eofilename.wmv

There is no need for a separate audio stream. When I say that they were sending separate WMV and WMA streams, I mean that the machine was concurrently downloading a WMV file and a separate WMA file, not just two different streams in a single file.
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post #184 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Nope. WMV movies can contain an audio stream within the WMV file: http://www.mediacollege.com/video/fo...eofilename.wmv

There is no need for a separate audio stream. When I say that they were sending separate WMV and WMA streams, I mean that the machine was concurrently downloading a WMV file and a separate WMA file, not just two different streams in a single file.

Ah I understand now. That's interesting. I hope it does mean they're planning on sending 5.1 audio at some point.
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post #185 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 10:28 AM
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Is anybody using Hulu Desktop too(Not the browser version of Hulu). I am getting jerky playback not only on Netflix, but Hulu Desktop as well. I thought Hulu used flash, but I have heard others complaining that Hulu Desktop's implementation is not to good.

I am so frustrated about this whole jittery issue- It really bothers me to the point where I am avoiding that content right now.

I have an HD 4200 GPU and I was getting ready to upgrade it, but sounds like that would not help. playback of video files are no problem.

I am going to play around with the power plan settings and disable Aero tonight to see if it helps. Other than that, my hardware and software setup should be fine specwise.
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post #186 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 11:37 AM
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I can only get Hulu to run reasonably smoothly by lowering the video quality. But I use DSL Lite. Netflix works much better for me than Hulu. Some people are reporting jittery video with Netflix. I am not getting jittery video. I don't think anyone has reported the cause or solution to jittery Netflix video yet. It would be difficult to say how to fix the problem, but feel free to experiment and post a report.
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post #187 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamezHill View Post

I watch Netflix through win7 wmc and it looks like crap. I stream it through my xbox though and it looks great, but I don't use it all that often.

That's the problem that many of are experiencing and also a major cause of our frustration. I had wanted to clean up my entertainment system, so I built my first htpc. Netflix streaming works great on both my LG tv (in another room), and on my Samsung BD player in the same room, but looks like crap on my htpc.

It's obviously not link speed nor my wireless connection. When I open the SL AV/Stats window, I can see dropped frames. I can pause the program and watch the buffer build to 420 seconds. When I restart, SL still cheerfully acknowledges that it's dropping frames (sometimes more than half on a 24 fps program such as Bones Season 1). CPU consumption is less than 25%, and DPC latency checker shows latency consistently under 100 u-sec, even while frames are being dropped like crazy. It is especially prevalent whenever there's motion on the screen. Static screens seem OK, but I don't watch a lot of stuff with just talking heads.

I've run every diagnostic I can think of, checked all my drivers, tried different refresh rates on my video card (24 hz refresh rate looked even worse on my TV than the 60Hz default rate). I can play bd with TMT perfectly, and the directx and nvidia tests also work perfectly. The only thing that seems to have a problem is Netflix. I've also removed just about every piece of software that might be interfering, but SL stutters on.
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post #188 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ99 View Post

When I open the SL AV/Stats window, I can see dropped frames. I can pause the program and watch the buffer build to 420 seconds. When I restart, SL still cheerfully acknowledges that it's dropping frames (sometimes more than half on a 24 fps program such as Bones Season 1).

This is definitely not what I'm seeing nor what the OP is reporting:
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Originally Posted by BigPotato View Post

What I see when I do this experiment are dropped frames, but the playback diagnostics do not report any dropped frames.

Dropped frames are usually an indication that your GPU/CPU cannot handle the decoding.
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post #189 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

AMD Phenom II x4 810
ATI Radeon HD 5770
Windows 7 x64
Tested with IE and both Silverlight 3 and Silverlight 4

I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying that what you are seeing is what it should look like. I'm only saying that what I am seeing is consistent with what it should look like. If you are seeing more jerkiness than what I described, it could be either an issue with your configuration or an issue with the way Silverlight runs on your configuration. If it's the latter (which is a possibility) then it is an issue with Silverlight and that would be on Microsoft to fix.

FWIW, I only see slight judder on the SL demo site as well (consistent with playing 24 fps content at 59hz).

Sorry, I thought you were trying to tell me that I was seeing normal 24 Hz judder, and I got the wrong end of the stick.

If I were you I'd go out and buy a lottery ticket since you must have a very lucky configuration.

I was unable to get a configuration that worked. It wasn't for lack of trying different combinations:

3 different machines (2 Q6600's and a i3-530)
2 different OSes (Vista and Windows 7)
2 different OS targets (x86 and AMD64)
2 different Silverlight versions (3 and 4)
3 different video cards (ATI 4850, Intel GPU and older nVidia)
2 different networks (at home and at work)
2 different hosts (7MC and IE)
Aero/non-Aero
Countless configuration settings (power, graphics, process priorities, etc)

I agree that a fix from MS (or perhaps Netflix) is needed, but until that materializes I've given up on it. The truth is that my $150 BD player has far better Netflix playback than my well equiped PCs, which seems sad but it's true.
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post #190 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

The only time I see the massive jerkiness that you are reporting is on 30 fps streams and there is nothing on my end that can be done about it so therefore I do not consider it an issue with the Silverlight player. It's the result of a bad encode before it is streamed to the player and standalone players use a different encode which is why they are not exhibiting the same problem that I see on them.

vladd, do you have a display that accepts 24Hz and can have frame interpolation turned-off?

If so could you try setting your PC to 24Hz refresh and then play a 24fps encoded Netflix stream?

I think you'd agree that this should look perfect apart from normal 24 fps judder or possibly a repeated frame every 40s or so if there is a 23.976 vs 24 Hz issue.

What I see when I do this is doubled/dropped frames constantly. I'm interested if your setup duplicates this or not.
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post #191 of 394 Old 08-03-2010, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPotato View Post

Sorry, I thought you were trying to tell me that I was seeing normal 24 Hz judder, and I got the wrong end of the stick.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to tell you that. I pretty much gathered from your earlier posts that you knew the difference. (Although I suspect that there are some people who don't and may think they are seeing what you are but that's speculation on my part.)

I'll try to test with my 4670 tomorrow and let you know the results. I'm running 10.6 on the 5670 rig but my 4670 machine has Catalyst 10.2 (or 10.4) so that may perform differently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPotato View Post

vladd, do you have a display that accepts 24Hz and can have frame interpolation turned-off?

If so could you try setting your PC to 24Hz refresh and then play a 24fps encoded Netflix stream?

I think you'd agree that this should look perfect apart from normal 24 fps judder or possibly a repeated frame every 40s or so if there is a 23.976 vs 24 Hz issue.

What I see when I do this is doubled/dropped frames constantly. I'm interested if your setup duplicates this or not.

Unfortunately, I don't have a display that accepts 24Hz. I really wish I did since it does annoy me but I can't convince my wife to let me buy another TV. But yeah, I agree that is the result one should see at that setting.

Edit: My Vizio panel actually accepts 24hz input but then does a really crappy 24->60hz conversion before displaying it and the results are worse than if I just feed it a 60hz signal.
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post #192 of 394 Old 08-04-2010, 11:41 AM
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hi, quick question, just finished my htpc build and have netflix set up on 7mc, but everytime i play something, 7mc goes from a full screen to just a window, theres a red loading screen then the movie begins to play, but i have to pick up the wireless keyboard and hit maximize to get full screen again? I would go back through the threads to see if someone has already brought this up, but i'm already having to do that with 2 other issues and i'm tired of digging through pages. i'd appreciate any help.
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post #193 of 394 Old 08-04-2010, 11:48 AM
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It's always stayed full-screen for me.
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post #194 of 394 Old 08-04-2010, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

This is definitely not what I'm seeing nor what the OP is reporting:
Dropped frames are usually an indication that your GPU/CPU cannot handle the decoding.

If there's a deficiency in my graphics card or cpu (Nvidia 9500GT/E7500), it must be Netflix-specific. Not only can I play blu-rays at full rez, but I can play video flawlessly from every other major streaming source: OTA networks, cable networks, YouTube, Vudu, B/B, etc. In fact, they play perfectly on my 4 year old desktop with an E4300 and a decidely downlevel Nvidia card.

The ONLY one that has any problems is Netflix. Hence my frustration.
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post #195 of 394 Old 08-04-2010, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPotato View Post

Try "Mary & Max", there are a series of pans and zooms that demonstrate the problem. This material is filmed with lots of smooth and steady shots, no crappy simulated hand-held look. As the camera closes on the house at around 2:45 it is particularly obvious, the panning shot of the teabags at 4:40 is also a good candidate.

I watched 15-20 minutes of "Mary & Max" on my HTPC last night and on my PS3 today.

On both I could see some artifacts like pixelazation at edges, slightly jittery pictures and hot spots, but nothing that would make it unwatchable.

On the HTPC I could see on some pan and motion shots where the action was not smooth. Stuttering would strike me as an overly aggressive description.

The picture looked better on the PS3. The PS3 was noticeably smoother and more enjoyable.

I don't usually watch animated material and on other movies I have watched on both I preferred the HTPC for audio and video. However, I agree that a lot of perception and subjectivity factors into satisfaction. I tend to judge on content over picture quality. I think the description of what others are seeing is more intrusive than what I saw. But, remember that this is only the second week I have been watching Netfix on line.

However, I did see the uneven picture motion that you are talking about.
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post #196 of 394 Old 08-04-2010, 01:24 PM
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I was messing around last night and streamed Netflix with no problem while recording 4 OTA shows (3 were in HD) all in 7MC. I just wanted to see how things would go if I'm recording shows this fall but felt like streaming during that time frame.

I had good video quality and no judder that I can recall so I guess I'm good to go.
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post #197 of 394 Old 08-04-2010, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackal55 View Post

I was messing around last night and streamed Netflix with no problem while recording 4 OTA shows (3 were in HD) all in 7MC. I just wanted to see how things would go if I'm recording shows this fall but felt like streaming during that time frame.

I had good video quality and no judder that I can recall so I guess I'm good to go.

can i ask how are you able to record 4 OTA shows at a time? is it TV tuner dependent?

I have tried ripping my blu-rays while streaming Netlix HD at one time with no problems (no lag/judder).
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post #198 of 394 Old 08-04-2010, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rexb610 View Post

can i ask how are you able to record 4 OTA shows at a time? is it TV tuner dependent?

I have tried ripping my blu-rays while streaming Netlix HD at one time with no problems (no lag/judder).

I have 2 Avermedia Duet cards. Each card has 2 tuners so I can record 4 channels simultaneously.
LL
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post #199 of 394 Old 08-10-2010, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I suspect that yes, because I'm sure not all of the set top hardware can handle Silverlight/WMV encoded streams.

For those interested in learning more about the encodings used for Netflix Consumer Electronics Partners VS PC platforms (Windows/Mac OSX):

http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/enco...streaming.html
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post #200 of 394 Old 08-10-2010, 03:17 PM
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I am interested to know if Microsfot/Netflix even acknowledges the issues and are working on it. l I think its a Silverlight issue only, as I ran a Silverlight only video and saw the same thing on panning so its definitely a Silverlight issue.

If I knew it was being addressed I would be fine with that, but for all we know, they are not even aware of it.
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post #201 of 394 Old 08-10-2010, 04:30 PM
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MS/Netflix insist the Silverlight player is fine any time any faults with it are brought up. If enough of us can collectively get their attention maybe that will change. What we really need is some popular e-mag to review the craptastic performance of Netflix on the PC.
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post #202 of 394 Old 08-10-2010, 06:20 PM
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I originally had high hope with Netflix via streaming PC but it is simply not watchable at the current stage.

Anyone knows a direct link to report this problem to Netflix please share.
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post #203 of 394 Old 09-01-2010, 04:06 PM
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BTW there was a new release for Silverlight today. I haven't had time to test it with Netflix.

http://johnpapa.net/silverlight/new-...Silverlight%29
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post #204 of 394 Old 09-01-2010, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artslinger View Post

BTW there was a new release for Silverlight today. I haven't had time to test it with Netflix.

http://johnpapa.net/silverlight/new-...Silverlight%29

Still no dice
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post #205 of 394 Old 09-02-2010, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sydlexius View Post

Still no dice

I'm beginning to think this is a marketing ploy from Netflix to get everyone moved over to Netflix embeded standalone devices.

I know nothing about Netflix streaming, but it would seem to be a simple fix to get Netflix working correctly in WMC, streaming works properly in every other device.
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post #206 of 394 Old 09-02-2010, 08:16 AM
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I live by adage: never attribute to cunning what can be explained by ineptitude.


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post #207 of 394 Old 09-02-2010, 10:36 AM
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I don't use it very often but Netflix plays fine for me in 7MC[knock on wood], but I don't really care to use since it still doesn't have 5.1 sound and I wish the 7MC interface had an HD tab like the web site does.

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post #208 of 394 Old 09-02-2010, 01:20 PM
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release notes for latest version:

- Improves the native extensibility of media stream source that uses the Silverlight technology and the Expression Encoder.
- Enables new Add Row functionality in the Silverlight DataGrid control.
- Enables you to increase the isolated storage size through registry keys or Group Policy settings.
- Improves the startup performance of applications on a computer that enables the Silverlight technology.
- Adds the mouse wheel support for out of browser applications on a computer that is running a Mac operating system.
- Resolves a security issue. Playback of PlayReady-protected content through a remote desktop connection or a terminal session is now disabled.
- Fixed various memory leaks including:
> Memory leaks that occur when mouse capture is used. For example, memory leaks that occur when you use CaptureMouse() in drag-and-drop scenarios.
> Memory leaks that occur when UserControl cannot be garbage-collected because it contains inline data template.
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post #209 of 394 Old 09-02-2010, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

release notes for latest version:

- Improves the native extensibility of media stream source that uses the Silverlight technology and the Expression Encoder.
- Enables new Add Row functionality in the Silverlight DataGrid control.
- Enables you to increase the isolated storage size through registry keys or Group Policy settings.
- Improves the startup performance of applications on a computer that enables the Silverlight technology.
- Adds the mouse wheel support for out of browser applications on a computer that is running a Mac operating system.
- Resolves a security issue. Playback of PlayReady-protected content through a remote desktop connection or a terminal session is now disabled.
- Fixed various memory leaks including:
> Memory leaks that occur when mouse capture is used. For example, memory leaks that occur when you use CaptureMouse() in drag-and-drop scenarios.
> Memory leaks that occur when UserControl cannot be garbage-collected because it contains inline data template.

Having programmed a little in Silverlight, I can say that all of those except maybe the first would have no effect on Netflix streaming. I'm still of the belief that the jumping we all see is due to Netflix's encoding methods, and not a problem with the player.
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post #210 of 394 Old 09-02-2010, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spivonious View Post

Having programmed a little in Silverlight, I can say that all of those except maybe the first would have no effect on Netflix streaming. I'm still of the belief that the jumping we all see is due to Netflix's encoding methods, and not a problem with the player.

I completely agree.

Well the disabling of playback for PlayReady protected content through RDP might affect Netflix as well but there would really not be much point to it anyway.
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