Radeon 5770 - Blurry/Fuzzy Text - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 62 Old 07-19-2010, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I recently built a new computer and am having an incredibly difficult time getting the graphics card (XFX Radeon 5770) to function properly with Windows 7 (via HDMI).

Everything looks a bit blurry, especially the text. HDMI, DVI, and VGA connections all look terrible. The only success that I have had is by using a "Composite Sync" feature with VGA, that is stated not to be supported by Sony. The text became clear with that feature, but the corner of the screen was cut-off/folded-over and flickering. My goal is to get things working with HDMI.

A few notes:

* Running the the most recent ATI drivers (10.6)

* Pixel ratio set to 1:1 on the TV

* Using native resolution (1080p/60hz, also tried 59hz without improvement)

* Overscan set to 0%

* ClearType text has been adjusted

* Tried older drivers: 10.5, 10.4, and 9.8 without success

With the "Composite Sync" feature for VGA connections having been my only partial success, I'm wondering if Catalyst is actually outputting the signal with the displayed 60hz refresh rate, or if there is a problem with one/both of the vertical/horizontal frequencies.

After spending dozens of hours on Google and reading posts about similar issues that had been solved by simply setting 1:1 pixel mapping or eliminating overscan, I'm fresh out of ideas and starting to go crazy.

I would return the card, but I'm only eligible for a replacement card of the same model, and this seems like it is probably a Windows or ATI software issue.

Does anyone know what might be causing this and how to fix it?
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post #2 of 62 Old 07-19-2010, 10:18 PM
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With VGA did you try adjusting phase manually? In the manual it should say which HDMI port to use for the PC. On the rear of the tv it might say DVI/HDMI which is for the pc. Just Scan is enabled?
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post #3 of 62 Old 07-19-2010, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

With VGA did you try adjusting phase manually? In the manual it should say which HDMI port to use for the PC. On the rear of the tv it might say DVI/HDMI which is for the pc. Just Scan is enabled?

I didn't try adjusting the phase with VGA, but it's probably a good idea to see if that does anything because it might shine some light on the problem.

My 5 year old Windows XP Dell, with a $40 Radeon 4350 card, had no problem producing crisp text via HDMI on this same HDTV. So, ultimately I'm not willing to settle for VGA on my brand new computer though.

My understanding is that "Just Scan" is the equivalent of "Full Pixel" (e.g. 1:1) in the Bravia screen menu, and that is what I have set.

In terms of the HDMI inputs, I tried #1 (on the back) and #2 (on the side) without any difference. I also selected the "PC" label for both, which didn't do anything. I had been using input #2 without problems on my old computer.
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post #4 of 62 Old 07-19-2010, 11:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I reconnected the VGA cable and manually adjusted the phase setting, as well as ran the auto-adjust function. Overall it did help a bit, with -9 to -11 phase being the sweet spot. The VGA signal looks pretty good now, with no noticeable blurring, though it's not quite as sharp as HDMI was on my old computer, and obviously lacks sound.
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post #5 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 12:08 AM
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If your old computer worked fine then something is wrong with your current pc. I don't know what though...
Did you try a 1:1 pixel pattern?
http://www.marky.com/misc/testpatter...ern_ByMark.gif
Run the picture unscaled, does it look blurry?
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post #6 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

If your old computer worked fine then something is wrong with your current pc. I don't know what though...
Did you try a 1:1 pixel pattern?
http://www.marky.com/misc/testpatter...ern_ByMark.gif
Run the picture unscaled, does it look blurry?

Just did a 1:1 pixel pattern test and it looks to be correctly mapping pixels 1:1 without scaling. It's almost like the video card isn't using a native resolution or 60hz, but both Catalyst and the Monitor tab in Window's advanced display settings say that it is 1920x1080 (60hz). Everything is a little blurry, and unless this is causing my vision to go screwy, text sometimes has color distortion (e.g. sometimes black text characters on a white background appear to have a very slight fuschia glow if I look intently from a close distance).
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post #7 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b00134n View Post

text sometimes has color distortion (e.g. sometimes black text characters on a white background appear to have a very slight fuschia glow if I look intently from a close distance).

I had that same problem with my dads ln52a650. It was fixed by setting the input label to PC but then you lose color controls.
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post #8 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

I had that same problem with my dads ln52a650. It was fixed by setting the input label to PC but then you lose color controls.

I wish that worked for me, but setting the label to PC had no effect.

I just used a program to pull the EDID info from my old computer's registry and compared it against the live signal being read by Windows 7. One strange thing I noticed is that the EDID info on my old XP machine was more detailed than what is currently being received / stored in the registry. The following categories are included.

Both New Machine (W7) and Old (XP):
* Monitor
* Color characteristics
* Timing characteristics
* Standard timings supported
* Report information

Old Machine Only (XP):
* EIA/CEA-861 Information
* CE video identifiers (VICs) - timing/formats supported
* CE audio data (formats supported)
* CE speaker allocation data
* CE vendor specific data (VSDB)
* CE video capability data

I'm not really sure what to make of this though. The most relevant looking EDID info on my current machine is as follows, in case any experts see a problem (beyond the potential problem of missing info):

Code:
  EDID revision............ 1.3
  Input signal type........ Digital
  Color bit depth.......... Undefined
  Display type............. RGB color
  Screen size.............. 1600 x 900 mm (72.3 in)
  Power management......... Not supported
  Extension blocs.......... 1 (Reserved - 0x00)
  -------------------------
  DDC/CI................... Not supported

Timing characteristics
  Horizontal scan range.... 15-70kHz
  Vertical scan range...... 58-62Hz
  Video bandwidth.......... 150MHz
  CVT standard............. Not supported
  GTF standard............. Not supported
  Additional descriptors... None
  Preferred timing......... Yes
  Native/preferred timing.. 1920x1080p at 60Hz (16:9)
    Modeline............... "1920x1080" 148.500 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1089 1125 +hsync +vsync
  Detailed timing #1....... 1280x720p at 60Hz (16:9)
    Modeline............... "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1390 1430 1650 720 725 730 750 +hsync +vsync
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post #9 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b00134n View Post

I didn't try adjusting the phase with VGA, but it's probably a good idea to see if that does anything because it might shine some light on the problem.

My 5 year old Windows XP Dell, with a $40 Radeon 4350 card, had no problem producing crisp text via HDMI on this same HDTV. So, ultimately I'm not willing to settle for VGA on my brand new computer though.

I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure I know what your "problem" is.

It's Vista/7.

No I'm serious. The way the text is since Vista, it's completely different than XP. Even with the ClearType on in XP and/or off in Vista (and subsequently 7) it doesn't matter, you can't get them to look the same.

What they did, starting with Vista, is make ClearType a bit "stronger" and, it's in a sense (relative to XP) always on, even if you turn it off. I.e. You just can't get that old digitized sharp look of XP.

I notice it everytime I go back and use an XP computer, particularly on an LCD or HDTV. I think the idea was that because pretty much everyone uses a digital display of some sort now (for computers nearly universally LCDs, for HT either an LCD, plasma, or digital projector), they decided to make things look less "digital" and sharp and so the fonts are all softened and rounded looking, compared with XP. It's just the way it is. It's something I didn't really like at first either, but now I think it is better (or maybe I just fooled myself into thinking that LOL).

If you install XP on the same machine and you see your old "sharp/clear" text again, you'll know it's just a "feature" of Windows 7.

I'm not sure if there's a way to make Vista/7 look like XP did (I never really looked into it) but there might be. You could start by turning ClearType OFF, see if that does anything for you. Then it's on to google "make vista look like XP" lol.
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post #10 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure that's the case - the reason being, text is showing up noticeably crisper via VGA than HDMI.

It may be that icons and everything else appears blurred via HDMI too and it's just less obvious to me. I'm kind of leaning towards there being a problem with the timings/frequencies.
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post #11 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b00134n View Post

I wish that worked for me, but setting the label to PC had no effect.

I just used a program to pull the EDID info from my old computer's registry and compared it against the live signal being read by Windows 7. One strange thing I noticed is that the EDID info on my old XP machine was more detailed than what is currently being received / stored in the registry. The following categories are included.

Have you tried using an EDID override?
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post #12 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b00134n View Post

I'm not sure that's the case - the reason being, text is showing up noticeably crisper via VGA than HDMI.

Well I'm not 100% sure either, as I said. But what I do know is that you can't compare it to an XP computer because XP will look sharper without a doubt.

I would either install XP temporarily on that machine or compare to a Vista or 7 machine to be sure you're not just seeing the normal difference between NT 5 and 6.
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post #13 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

I had that same problem with my dads ln52a650. It was fixed by setting the input label to PC but then you lose color controls.

on that input only, tho(?)

you might have lost color control via the tv(using that input), but you should still be able to control the color over that input with the video card.
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post #14 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ES_Revenge View Post

What they did, starting with Vista, is make ClearType a bit "stronger" and, it's in a sense (relative to XP) always on, even if you turn it off. I.e. You just can't get that old digitized sharp look of XP.

the text on my main windows 7 pc, with it's 24" 1080p dell monitor, is plenty sharp, even with cleartype turned on.

historically, with crt monitors, some video card manufacturers gave you better 2d picture quality than others did, i.e., matrox always had exceptional text picture quality, because it had better 2d pq.

that could still be the case today, even with a digital connection, but in this situation i'd be wondering exactly what font sizes were selected on the htpc box... i run a 200% font, in order to maximize the 10 ft. experience.
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post #15 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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So, I just hooked up both my old and new computers to my Bravia and toggled between the inputs, confirming that the image quality on my new computer is terrible. While doing so, I noticed a couple of very interesting differences.

For reference, my old computer, which displays excellently is "HDMI 4" and my new computer with the display issues is "HDMI 2."

The options within the "Screen" menu on the input with my old computer (good image quality) were: Reset, Phase (greyed), Pitch (greyed), H Center, V Center, and Wide Mode. The options for the same menu with my new computer (quality issues) were: Wide Mode, 4:3 Default, Auto Display Area, Display Area, Screen Position, and Vertical Size.

Also, when comparing the text at the top of the screen that appears when changing inputs, the display text was different for my new computer and my old computer. You can also kind of see the comparative quality of the screen text in the two images, though they are not the best quality photos.

This proves that the two signals are being treated very differently, but I have no idea what what be causing this to happen. Obviously my TV is recognizing the signal from the old computer as a PC signal and failing to do so with the signal from my new computer.
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post #16 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Have you tried using an EDID override?

I did try an EDID override, exporting my registry settings from my old computer and using them on my new computer, but that didn't seem to really fix/change anything.
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post #17 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b00134n View Post

For reference, my old computer, which displays excellently is "HDMI 4" and my new computer with the display issues is "HDMI 2."

Did you try swapping inputs?
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post #18 of 62 Old 07-20-2010, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Did you try swapping inputs?

Yes, when I plug my new computer in "HDMI 4" and switch to that input, the info display text and "Screen" menu options for that input change to the ones mentioned before for "HDMI 2." Good thought though.
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post #19 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 12:12 AM
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Can you post your EDIDs from the two machines? I'd be interested in taking a look at them.
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post #20 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 12:25 AM
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Reading your manual, it mentions this (underlined for my emphasis, bold text is Sony's emphasis):

Quote:


The 1080p timing when applied to the HDMI input will be treated as a video timing and not PC timing. This
affects Picture settings and Wide Mode settings. To view PC content set Scene Select to Graphics,
Wide Mode to Full, and Display Area to Full Pixel.

Also make sure that you have the Pixel Format in Catalyst Control Center set to one of the YCbCr values and not one of the RGB values.
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post #21 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 03:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Reading your manual, it mentions this (underlined for my emphasis, bold text is Sony's emphasis):

Also make sure that you have the Pixel Format in Catalyst Control Center set to one of the YCbCr values and not one of the RGB values.

The picture is still distorted with Scene Select set to Graphics, Wide Mode to Full, Display Area to Full Pixel, and color set to YCbCr within Catalyst.

I had read the section of the manual you referenced, but it is clear from this screenshot that the HDMI signal coming from my XP box is definitely being picked up as a PC signal.

So some kind of bug allows my TV to recognize the HDMI output from Windows XP as a PC signal and display clear images with crisp text, but my upgrade to Windows 7 has "fixed" the problem, generously reducing my picture quality and causing headache-inducing blurry text?
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post #22 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osv View Post

the text on my main windows 7 pc, with it's 24" 1080p dell monitor, is plenty sharp, even with cleartype turned on.

"Plenty sharp" doesn't say much at all. Surely it is sharp but if you compare it with XP on the exact same computer otherwise, you'll see what I mean. Trust me.
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post #23 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 08:23 AM
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My test is just as sharp on my TV with Windows 7 as it ever was with Windows XP.
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post #24 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

My test is just as sharp on my TV with Windows 7 as it ever was with Windows XP.

That's impossible. Are you simply remembering what XP looks like or are you comparing them side by side? This isn't just the case for TVs either, for computer monitors, at any resolution. It's unmistakable, the differences in the OSes.
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post #25 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 11:50 AM
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I remember quite well what XP looks like. I work on machines with it practically every day.
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post #26 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 01:00 PM
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It's possible that the "fuzziness" you guys are seing is due to the change in the default font in Windows 7. Try changing it: http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials...ts-change.html
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post #27 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I just finished talking with Sony technical support for a very long time with no solution. He confirmed that every setting is theoretically set correctly. When I asked the technician the call was escalated to how Bravia makes the determination for whether to flag a signal from a PC as a "PC signal" or "Video signal" he said:

* The TV should display 1080p/60hz signals from PCs via HDMI as VIDEO signals (not PC signals).
* The TV should display all other signals from PCs via HDMI as PC signals (not video signals).

He said it is a mystery why my TV is displaying a 1080p/60hz signal from XP as a PC signal, and that it is also a mystery why my TV is NOT displaying lower (tested) resolutions via HDMI in W7 as PC signals.

One thing he theorized was that XP is sending a 1920x1080/60hz signal from XP that is neither progressive nor interlaced, despite what the Catalyst settings state. I'm not sure that makes any sense or is even possible, but he maintained that it was possible. Is there any way to try to recreate a 1080/60hz signal in W7 that is neither "i" nor "p" to test?
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post #28 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b00134n View Post

I'm not sure that makes any sense or is even possible, but he maintained that it was possible.

It doesn't make sense and it's not possible. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm still pretty sure that the blurriness is due to the font change (Tahoma for XP and Segoe UI for Win 7).
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post #29 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

It doesn't make sense and it's not possible. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm still pretty sure that the blurriness is due to the font change (Tahoma for XP and Segoe UI for Win 7).

I didn't think it made sense either.

I really don't think it is due to the font change, as I've tried changing some of the appearance fonts in W7 to Tahoma and it's still blurry.

Also, my TV is without a doubt receiving a different video signal from XP and W7, or it wouldn't be consistently flagging one as a PC signal, the other as a video signal, and showing different "Screen Menu" options and "Display Info" ("1920x1080/60hz" vs "1080p HD | 16:9") for both. I just have no idea how to track down the discrepancy is in the output signal between the 2 systems, since both have identical output settings specified. This is driving me crazy.
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post #30 of 62 Old 07-21-2010, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b00134n View Post

Just did a 1:1 pixel pattern test and it looks to be correctly mapping pixels 1:1 without scaling.

You say its scaling fine but it still looks blurry? I don't see how that is possible

Are you connecting both computers to the same HDMI port? In the pictures it shows HDMI2 and HDMI4.

Here is a 1920x1080 1:1 pattern:
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/3...xelpattern.png
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