HDCP has been cracked - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 55 Old 09-17-2010, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by archibael View Post

..............................

The potential impact to other content, however, is much more interesting. Cable and satellite boxes, the other major users of the HDCP technology, have relied on it in order to attempt to keep full digital copies of Copy Never-marked content out of consumer hands,
................................

This is the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title. As a result of this crack, I can imagine a small device, maybe similar-looking to an HDFury, into which one would plug the HDMI output from a sat receiver or cable box. The "adapter" would then plug into an HTPC via either USB or eSATA so that the computer could record the digital stream in the same way a commerical receiver/PVR does, except with no limitations on number of recording hours.
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post #32 of 55 Old 09-17-2010, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Don't forget that using the key to "freely" generate your own HDCP keys is illegal under the DMCA and will be sued for, so don't expect anyone selling devices like that freely available in any modern country.

This is true of the US and the EU , given that both economies are in severe recession, with consumer spending shrinking, this will play out elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

The HDCP keys have to be written into the sillicon, which you just can't do yourself.

That is where most of the money is made.

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Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Only the chinese will now produce HDCP hardware without paying the fees, but they won't be able to sell it in the western world.

China is the second largest economy in terms of consumer spending and is the fastest growing.

The threat of flooding this market with unlicensed devices is a huge stick
to have at the bargaining table.

Concessions made here will flow back to the rest of the world in one form or another.

CE and chip companies have to meet their sales and growth quarterly numbers. China is one such place to make money.
Until the western economies pull out of recession they are largely irrelevant especially on the growth part.
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post #33 of 55 Old 09-18-2010, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

If memory serves me right, weren`t most CRTs maxing out to about 1078x768, making a HD feed basically useless? Correct me if i`m wrong.

"Rodents of unusual size? I don't think they exist".

Head on over to the CRT projector forum. You will find that the highest fidelity HD images are still produced by CRT projectors. Many CRT projectors were supporting 2500X2000 res by the mid 1990s.

A reference Blu-ray viewed on an Electrome Marquee 9501LC will likely cause you to pee your pants (metaphorically speaking, of course).

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post #34 of 55 Old 09-18-2010, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post


You need a key to start your car. You can get a stolen car with the key punched out and you no longer need one to start the car.

Why do they still keys on all new cars?

Enough with this sort of parallels. Cars and media are two very different beasts. DRM on payed for media is and has always been ridiculous.

Seriously. AVS is a place where you go to learn to be unhappy. - Bear5k
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post #35 of 55 Old 09-18-2010, 10:22 AM
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Heck, my needs aren't even shady...

What I need is an in-line device between my source and my display that will allow me to regain use of the HDMI on my otherwise beautiful 43" Pio plasma.

(The TV has a fried HDCP chipset, so it currently refuses to handshake with any source... The HDMI works, but not the HDCP).

What I essentially need is an HDMI-to-HDMI hdfury device... one that is cheaper!

/fingers crossed
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post #36 of 55 Old 09-18-2010, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

"Rodents of unusual size? I don't think they exist".

I do not think that word means what you think it means.
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post #37 of 55 Old 09-18-2010, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Inconceivable!
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post #38 of 55 Old 09-18-2010, 12:31 PM
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No more rhymes now, I mean it!
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post #39 of 55 Old 09-18-2010, 09:17 PM
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I see this as more of a means to allow your PC (and not necessarily win 7) to become your centralized multi-tuner TV watching and PVR device without an analog step in the process. That last little bit is important for a lot of folks.

Imagine putting 4 cheap Chinese made HDMI capture cards with cracked HDCP (or flashably cracked) and IR blaster functionality into your PC running your favorite EPG/PVR backend and connected to 4 set top boxes of your choice (cable, dish, directv, a mix if you desire...). Make that number 2, or 6 if you wish. All STB's connected via HDMI, so that you can now stream perfect HD to any connected display in the house or record any program to HDD without compromising quality.

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post #40 of 55 Old 09-19-2010, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

I see this as more of a means to allow your PC (and not necessarily win 7) to become your centralized multi-tuner TV watching and PVR device without an analog step in the process. That last little bit is important for a lot of folks.

Imagine putting 4 cheap Chinese made HDMI capture cards with cracked HDCP (or flashably cracked) and IR blaster functionality into your PC running your favorite EPG/PVR backend and connected to 4 set top boxes of your choice (cable, dish, directv, a mix if you desire...). Make that number 2, or 6 if you wish. All STB's connected via HDMI, so that you can now stream perfect HD to any connected display in the house or record any program to HDD without compromising quality.

Are you talking about using this video in its uncompressed format? If so, even with 2TB drives, there's not nearly enough storage to make this feasible. If not uncompressed, you can do this legally today with the HD-PVR. Since broadcasters aren't delivering 1080p or lossless audio, there's really almost nothing to be gained by using a digital connection to an HD-PVR type of device.

Aaron Ledger - Senior Design Engineer, Ceton Corp.
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post #41 of 55 Old 09-19-2010, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by swoon! View Post

Are you talking about using this video in its uncompressed format? If so, even with 2TB drives, there's not nearly enough storage to make this feasible. If not uncompressed, you can do this legally today with the HD-PVR. Since broadcasters aren't delivering 1080p or lossless audio, there's really almost nothing to be gained by using a digital connection to an HD-PVR type of device.

I don't think most people posting about this realize what kind of figures you need to consider for capturing the uncompressed signal via HDMI. The far bigger issue than storage space is bandwidth. For enough sustained write throughput a RAID array is required.

Not only can you not capture the original compressed data stream, you can't even capture it in its native 4:2:0 color space. The lowest supported by HDMI is 4:2:2.
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post #42 of 55 Old 09-19-2010, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

I don't think most people posting about this realize what kind of figures you need to consider for capturing the uncompressed signal via HDMI. The far bigger issue than storage space is bandwidth. For enough sustained write throughput a RAID array is required.

Not only can you not capture the original compressed data stream, you can't even capture it in its native 4:2:0 color space. The lowest supported by HDMI is 4:2:2.

Good point.

Aaron Ledger - Senior Design Engineer, Ceton Corp.
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post #43 of 55 Old 09-19-2010, 09:00 AM
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I guess I see the point... the original source was compressed... blu-ray, satellite or otherwise. It gets "uncompressed" in HDMI to stream but you can only stream the data originally contained in the source, i.e. the compressed frames. There isn't a way to rebuild the original master frame. So if you capture HDMI stream, you have to recompress it, which means compressing a compressed frame? Sucks then. Again I see your point... not much better than using analog.

I'm not up on the mathematics deep behind compression theory... is it possible that given the decoded output stream and information on the compression scheme used in the source that it is possible to recompress the stream to that format without suffering any further data loss? i.e. reconstruct an MPEG file given the decoded stream and info on the details of that MPEG file format?

But it makes me think it would have been better for us for HDMI or other digital connection formats to send a compressed stream and have display devices do the decoding. Then we could have captured the original source pretty easily.

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post #44 of 55 Old 09-20-2010, 03:06 PM
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IMHO, the sheer data rate of an HD video over HDMI or DVI is more effective copy protection than HDCP. However, as affordable real-time encoders get higher quality, this too will go away. HDMI in, USB out, a good MPEG-4 encoder, and HDMI-CEC for channel changes would be a sweet capture device.

Anyway, back to the real effect of this development. IIRC, the FCC has already made rulings that will allow premium content providers to turn off analog outputs on cable boxes. That leaves HDCP as the last line of defense for these content owners. So, an HD-Fury or similar HDMI in/out device with keys from this leak would be the only way to view this content on non-HDCP compliant devices.

- Mike
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post #45 of 55 Old 09-20-2010, 03:27 PM
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The more I read the more convinced I become that what you describe will be a reality in a couple of years. Three or four at the most. But probably not exactly 'affordable'.

You can buy pretty much that hardware now that will take hdmi or dvi in and can encode to h264 and mux with a 5.1 ac3 input into an mpeg ts stream for output over USB or ip packets. The roadblocks currently are price (5k or so), and no hdcp material. The hdcp crack could enable the Chinese to make clones of these tv broadcasting units with hdcp restrictions removed. Time will bring down the price of hardware as always. And there is is probably a decent market for such 'unlocked' devices.

Think about it. The hauppage hdpvr is dealing with about as much raw data and compresses on the fly. Being digital vs analog really doesn't change that if we are still talking about 720p and normal colorspace.

Alternatively we might see unlocked versions of framegrabbing cards like the blackmagic infinity and people building a separate mini pc that is just a homebrew hardware encoder, at least until CPUs are powerful enough to encode multiple streams and run the pvr backend at the same time which won't be for quite a few years.

I expect either of the above routes to cost about $500 per stream.

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post #46 of 55 Old 09-20-2010, 03:55 PM
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What is the legality of a device that would remove HDCP in the USA? In the UK it is now illegal to sell devices that remove Macrovision, the analog copy protection which also messed up some devices because of varying black levels. So I guess that a device that removed HDCP would also be illegal if it became available in the UK

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post #47 of 55 Old 09-20-2010, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

I don't think most people posting about this realize what kind of figures you need to consider for capturing the uncompressed signal via HDMI.

Yeah that's what I tried to say on the first page... I don't see what the rejoicing is all about. People just seem to do that anytime DRM schemes are broken. I guess because it's trendy to be anti-DRM all the time

Like you take a compressed stream that is lossy to begin with (AVC, VC-1, MPEG2--these are all lossy compression schemes), uncompress it and then do what? Re-compress it and lose again? LOL so now you've got generational loss too and you had all that work to do with the uncompressed signal. Whether you can do it or not, shouldn't be your concern; what should be your concern is that you're getting generational loss doing it this way.

Should have just copied the original compressed format, because you'd be better off. Of course this is easy with BD, but not so with other HDMI sources like cable boxes, etc. There, you'd have to build or have a box that allowed you to captured/copy/record the stream before decompressing it. Which I guess they do in the form of PVRs (?) but my understanding is you can't just get those files and post them online (or whatever it is you want to do with them that likely isn't legitmate LOL).
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post #48 of 55 Old 09-20-2010, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by salacious View Post

What is the legality of a device that would remove HDCP in the USA?

It would be illegal.
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post #49 of 55 Old 09-20-2010, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ES_Revenge View Post


Like you take a compressed stream that is lossy to begin with (AVC, VC-1, MPEG2--these are all lossy compression schemes), uncompress it and then do what? Re-compress it and lose again? LOL

Which is different than using the Hauppage HD-PVR card to capture the component output how, exactly?

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so now you've got generational loss too and you had all that work to do with the uncompressed signal.

But you don't have the loss from going through the additional D/A--A/D steps. So from a quality viewpoint, it's still better than capturing component, thought arguably not visibly better? Of course you might get a higher resolution in the HDMI signal than you can via component, so you have a higher quality albeit compressed signal to start with. Hard to argue against that.

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Whether you can do it or not, shouldn't be your concern; what should be your concern is that you're getting generational loss doing it this way.

No, the question is whether the hardware will become reasonably priced or not.

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Should have just copied the original compressed format

Which would be fantastic, except it's at least as impossible and illegal as capturing an unlocked HDMI stream. That would require either some serious hacking to get a DVB-S2 PCI card to work with US satellite, or hacking a US satellite box to capture the compressed stream. Similar with cable.

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post #50 of 55 Old 09-20-2010, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Think about it. The hauppage hdpvr is dealing with about as much raw data and compresses on the fly. Being digital vs analog really doesn't change that if we are still talking about 720p and normal colorspace.

You are correct so long as you're only interested in 720p. Do note, though, that the Hauppauge HD PVR only accepts up to 1080i60 input. 1080p24 would be less data than that, but people want up to 1080p60 for their video game captures. Maybe even higher for crazy 3D "reviewers" (can the games do 60p to each eye?).
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post #51 of 55 Old 09-20-2010, 10:36 PM
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Yes. And the HD pvr has been out a couple of years. How much has hardware power increased in that time, and how much more will it increase in the two or so years it takes for the first hdcp stripped hdmi capture devices to start arriving from china?

I don't think hardware limitations will be a roadblock. Rather cost and demand thus whether there is a profitable market to sell to.

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post #52 of 55 Old 09-25-2010, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Which is different than using the Hauppage HD-PVR card to capture the component output how, exactly?

I don't...know??? lol

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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

But you don't have the loss from going through the additional D/A--A/D steps. So from a quality viewpoint, it's still better than capturing component, thought arguably not visibly better? Of course you might get a higher resolution in the HDMI signal than you can via component, so you have a higher quality albeit compressed signal to start with. Hard to argue against that.

Ah okay I see now. I didn't realise what purpose this served at first. Agreed, digital domain generational loss is better than that generational loss plus D/A and A/D loss.

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Which would be fantastic, except it's at least as impossible and illegal as capturing an unlocked HDMI stream. That would require either some serious hacking to get a DVB-S2 PCI card to work with US satellite, or hacking a US satellite box to capture the compressed stream. Similar with cable.

Though I still don't get this. The cable and sat companies offer PVRs that allow you to record shows, right? And these can even have capacity added by using eSATA drives attached to them. So, what is the need to get these programs onto a computer?
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post #53 of 55 Old 09-25-2010, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ES_Revenge View Post

Though I still don't get this. The cable and sat companies offer PVRs that allow you to record shows, right? And these can even have capacity added by using eSATA drives attached to them. So, what is the need to get these programs onto a computer?

I imagine it's like having your HTPC record TV - all of your computers would have access to the recording (if it's not copy protected, that is).
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post #54 of 55 Old 09-25-2010, 11:56 PM
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Exactly. For one, if an HTPC / DVR backend server does the tuning and/or capturing, it allows you to integrate multiple diifferent broadcast sources (OTA, satellite, cable, even iptv) into a collective pool of recorded content and under a single unified program guide and navigation environment. Not sure how many people use cable and sat (my dad does, never did understand why), but the possibility is there and I think there are a greater number that might be interested in adding local OTA feeds to their current source. Or better yet iptv sources as they mature.

Secondly, it allows you to have centralized capture of all incoming signals and easily distribute them throughout the house. You get something like DirecTV or Comcast's "whole house DVR" but better. If there are only going to be 3 typical users at any one time, you only need 3 tuners... but you could access those tuners and/or stored/DVR content from dozens of different rooms/locations.

And this is especially attractive for people who use WMC7 or MediaPortal or in the future XBMC where stored media and captured/real time content are integrated under one GUI environment. In fact, there's already a plugin for XBMC that effortless transfers MythTV recordings to your media library, gets artwork and descriptions, and allows access via XBMC's content driven navigation.

Bottom line... I'm just one of those who in the past has had 6 or more different sources and ten remotes lying on my coffee table (that later went to one difficult to use and a couple of original "just in case" remotes) who would rather not have a stand alone DVD player, Blu-Ray player, Sat box, FM tuner, DVD changer, CD changer, etc. Each having a different looking menu, so even if you program a universal remote to operate them all, you (and more importantly the wife, children, guests) still have to remember how to navigate the menus and controls for each of them. Give me one pretty front end that allows access to all recorded content and incoming live streams of music and video, pictures, security camera feeds, all of it... from any location in the house, all looking and working exactly the same.

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post #55 of 55 Old 09-26-2010, 06:50 AM
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"Rodents of unusual size? I don't think they exist".

Thats what you thought
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