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post #1 of 30 Old 09-26-2010, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,

I use a HTPC with AMD780G chipset, which I own about a year now, maybe a bit longer. The thing is, I never got it working perfectly. There always have been occasional framedrops with any kind of video material, no matter which video renderer, Catalyst driver, decoder or refresh rate I choose. Hell, I even tried ReClock, but nothing worked. So I used to live with it, but over time it has become very annoying to me.

Thus, I am thinking about trying out one of these GeForce IGPs for AMD systems (GeForce 8100-8300) to see if the framedrops persist. Problem is, all the boards seem to have vanished from the market. I have compiled a small list with GF8200 boards, none of which seem to be available anymore:
  • Gigabyte GA-M78SM-S2H
  • Gigabyte GA-M85M-US2H
  • ASUS M3N78-EM
  • ASUS M3N78-VM
  • ASUS M3N-H/HDMI
  • ASUS M3N78-EMH HDMI
  • ASUS M4N78-VM
  • Abit A-N78HD
  • ASRock K10N78FullHD-hSLI R3.0
  • ECS GF8200SM-M3

What's the matter? Is the HTPC market so small that mainboard manufacturers don't care anymore or are there other chipsets (successors maybe) I haven't heard of yet?

Thanks for any advice.

locutus
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post #2 of 30 Old 09-26-2010, 09:17 AM
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Simply

- NVIDIA went out of the chipset business (mainly because of the reason below).
- Future desktop processors (low-end to mid-range, Intel or AMD) will all have GPU integrated. Hence there will be no more chipset with integrated GPU.
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post #3 of 30 Old 09-26-2010, 09:26 AM
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Since integrated GPUs like the Intel HD graphics in the Corei3/i5 series can decode high bitrate 1080p material with HD audio bitstreaming, and discrete low-power low-profile (so you can fit them in small mini-ITX builds ) cards like the HD5450 are on the market, integrated GPUs in the Mobo are becoming obsolete.
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post #4 of 30 Old 09-26-2010, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting, however the smallest Core-i3 with integrated GPU costs over 100 USD. What about the low-end market?
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post #5 of 30 Old 09-26-2010, 10:12 AM
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Pentium/Celeron Sandy Bridge will be released in H2 2011 (hopefully GPU is not crippled). AMD Zacate in Q1 2011, Llano in H2 2011.

Well, if you have a 780G mb, your best choice is add a discrete graphics card (Radeon HD 5xxx, HD 6xxx [October-], GeForce GT 430/440 [October]). It just adds 10W power most of the time (idle and video playback). You don't have to spend money on new processor/motherboard just for GPU.
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post #6 of 30 Old 09-26-2010, 10:34 AM
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See if your 780 motherboard can Hybrid CrossFire with a HD 5450 card like this one. Instead of getting a new motherboard, just get a cheap video card.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-154-_-Product

If you can find this HIS version (newegg is sold out), it comes with the DVI>HDMI adapter included and if purchased before the end of this month then you can get the MIR too.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814161323

Edit:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...rkey=H545H1GDL
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post #7 of 30 Old 09-27-2010, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locutus266 View Post

Hey guys,
I use a HTPC with AMD780G chipset, which I own about a year now, maybe a bit longer. The thing is, I never got it working perfectly. There always have been occasional framedrops with any kind of video material
What's the matter? Is the HTPC market so small that mainboard manufacturers don't care anymore or are there other chipsets (successors maybe) I haven't heard of yet?
Thanks for any advice.
locutus

hmm....seems weird, to say the least. The HD 3200 (780G IGP) is quite capable of HD video decoding.
I have a 780G based MB (M3A78-EM) and have never had a problem with HD material (BDs & HD-DVDs). This board has been rock-solid for me and I'd purchased it 'open-box' to boot. I've been running a HD 5750 for bitstreaming for a while now, so the 3200 doesn't get used for display. However, recently I had to remove the card for a few weeks and the IGP still worked fine without any problem.
This is both with Vista and Win 7.
The problem might be somewhere in your software or maybe you got a lemon.
Which software player do you use to decode the HD material?
Did it use the available HA or did it use the CPU for processing?

The 780G was replaced with the 785G (HD 4200), many of which are still around.
Also, Newegg stil has a few 780G boards, they currently have an ECS MB for $40 AR.


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Originally Posted by H8nXTC View Post

See if your 780 motherboard can Hybrid CrossFire with a HD 5450 card like this one. Instead of getting a new motherboard, just get a cheap video card.

+1, although I would forget about the CrossFire and just get a video card.
Anything from the 5000 series if you want HD audio bitstreaming or the 4000 series if you want to save some $$.
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post #8 of 30 Old 09-28-2010, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi hirent,

I am using Zoom Player and/or Media Player Classic with CoreAVC's H264 decoder under Windows XP. I don't use DXVA (hardware acceleration) because this breaks subtitle support, so it's a no-go for me. Everything is decoded via CPU. I am not using the PC for Blu-ray playback. For that I have a stand-alone player.

locutus
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post #9 of 30 Old 09-28-2010, 05:13 AM
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If you use Athlon X2 (non "II"), that could be the cause of issue because of slow HyperTransport bus 1.0GHz, hence narrow memory bandwidth... (HT is running at 1.8Gz-2.0GHz with the current Athlon/Phenom II).
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post #10 of 30 Old 09-28-2010, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locutus266 View Post

Hi hirent,

I am using Zoom Player and/or Media Player Classic with CoreAVC's H264 decoder under Windows XP. I don't use DXVA (hardware acceleration) because this breaks subtitle support, so it's a no-go for me. Everything is decoded via CPU. I am not using the PC for Blu-ray playback. For that I have a stand-alone player.

locutus

You can't use HA if you want subtitles? That's news to me (though I don't use subtitles enough to know really).

The problem is you say you're in the low end market and then say you need everything done by the CPU, which doesn't really go together. Also I don't see why you're that concerned about a good IGP either, since the CPU is doing all the work. There's no point in switching your board for a better IGP board because you're not using the IGP anyway! (Other than for video output I mean.) You can use any IGP you want or any videocard you want for that matter, but if you're not going to use the acceleration features, it's not going to do a thing for you for playing videos/stopping framedrops.

What you need to do if you want to decode with the CPU is upgrade the CPU.
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post #11 of 30 Old 09-30-2010, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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@ES_Revenge: The CPU stays well below the 100% mark, so I don't think this is the bottleneck. Also, I wrote, that the framedrops occur with EVERY kind of material, even less CPU-intensive xvid for example and they occur at regular intervals. I don't think this is a hardware issue at all, that's why I want to try an nvidia-based setup in the hope, the ForceWare drivers are any better in terms of video clock timings and solid 24p support.
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post #12 of 30 Old 09-30-2010, 04:07 PM
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You haven't said if this is playback of local files or over LAN. If it is local playback, Is it an dedicated media drive and is it full/fragmented or possibly in PIO mode ? If it is over your LAN is it wireless?

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post #13 of 30 Old 09-30-2010, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbird999 View Post

You haven't said if this is playback of local files or over LAN. If it is local playback, Is it an dedicated media drive and is it full/fragmented or possibly in PIO mode ? If it is over your LAN is it wireless?

BB

Yeah. if the CPU is not choking, HA is not being used, and frames are being dropped, the problem is likely elsewhere. I.e. not the CPU and not the videocard/IGP. Inadequate network bandwidth may well be the problem. If it's local content on the HDD though, I wonder if you have a driver issue with your chipset southbridge/SATA controller. Or maybe it's the software or configuration.

If it really is somehow the IGP, wouldn't it be better to just buy a cheap discrete card instead of buying a whole new motherboard?
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post #14 of 30 Old 09-30-2010, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
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@ES_Revenge: Concerning subtitles: Unfortunately you can't use DirectVobSub with DXVA, because for DXVA hardware accel. to work, renderer and decoder need a direct connection in the DirectShow graph, whereas in a configuration with DirectVobSub, it would sit in between. Also, it is unsure if DXVA will work for custom H264 content (not blu-ray).

I'm always playing videos from my HDD, never over network. Also, it is unlikely that there is any bottleneck at all, because I rechecked the player status information and it says that 0 frames have been dropped. Maybe, I should have described the issue somehow different: It's more like a judder regularly taking place every 10 secs or so. The video will run smooth for this period of time, followed by a "hickup" kind of thing.

I'm positive it's a display timing/refresh rate/driver issue, now what I would like to know is if GeForce cards are any better at video playback concerning this. I am playing 23,976 fps film content with 60 hz on my TV, since my TV is able to correct this, so it runs 100% smooth. THere's a technical term for this method, I think it's "5:5 pulldown". (That's the case with my standalone bd-player).

Now, what I'd like to know is playback 100% smooth using 24hz mode (or 60 Hz with pulldown) with 23,976 fps content on ForceWare/GeForce?

Quote:


If it really is somehow the IGP, wouldn't it be better to just buy a cheap discrete card instead of buying a whole new motherboard?

I need a spare MB anyways, so I'd use it in another PC for office work...
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post #15 of 30 Old 10-01-2010, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locutus266 View Post

Unfortunately you can't use DirectVobSub with DXVA, because for DXVA hardware accel. to work, renderer and decoder need a direct connection in the DirectShow graph, whereas in a configuration with DirectVobSub, it would sit in between. Also, it is unsure if DXVA will work for custom H264 content (not blu-ray).

There are a couple of ways to display subtitles with DXVA ON. For example,

- MPC HomeCinema with built-in subtitle engine + EVR CP
- ffdshow DXVA Video Decoder (+ EVR, EVR CP)
- MediaPortal internal player

I would first suspect slow HyperTransport speed. In AMD platform, faster HT is essential for good IGP performance, as in this post.

- Older processors such as 4850e: HT 1.0GHz
- Newer processors such as 7750: HT 1.8GHz
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post #16 of 30 Old 10-01-2010, 03:59 AM
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Subtitles are no problem with DXVA if you use MPC-HC with it's built-in subtitle engine as renethx says.

You don't need directVobSub.

I use A 780G and Windows XP myself. I use DXVA only for some 1080p movies as my Phenom X4 9750 cpu isn't fast enough for pure cpu decoding such just barely. 720p or anything lower works just fine in cpu.

I use MPC-HC and ffdshow. Haali Matroska splitter is good to have as well.

And the description you used. It's shudder/judder or pull-down issues. Not framedrops per see directly.

Your computer and monitor/tv are slithly out of sync and that gives those jumps now and then that will give you irritation.

I can say to you directly. the IGP HD3200 isn't perfect with 23/24hz. Basically you always get the judder, you can't avoid it with them. You need a HD4000 or HD5000 dedicated discrete graphics card. They are capable of "JUST PERFECT" sync.
It was quite some time back since I read about this at all so I would need to refresh myself on how it was exactly gotten just right without any kinds of jumps/judder or pull-down issues.

But a main thing is you have a capable tv/monitor that can match the video source in it's frame rate exactly or in a multiple thereof and a capable graphics card without issues in these regards.
HD3200 780G isn't without issues and if you want to escape this problem you basically have to move it aside.
I've also read that the i3/i5 aren't perfect in regard to 24hz playback either. There was some thread like that floating about here some time back I remember.
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post #17 of 30 Old 10-01-2010, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthog View Post

I can say to you directly. the IGP HD3200 isn't perfect with 23/24hz. Basically you always get the judder, you can't avoid it with them. You need a HD4000 or HD5000 dedicated discrete graphics card. They are capable of "JUST PERFECT" sync.
It was quite some time back since I read about this at all so I would need to refresh myself on how it was exactly gotten just right without any kinds of jumps/judder or pull-down issues.

Interesting! And you are 100% positive, that with HD4000 or 5000 this is not a problem and they will give me perfect sync? What's the matter with GeForce IGP on this matter (since I still need a spare board for other stuff)? My TV can do 24p and 5:5 pulldown at 60 Hz, even the EDID table is correct and contains all the modes...

I don't think I'm gonna buy a Core-i series CPU just for my HTPC needs, they're just too expensive only for that, I think and any other current dual-core CPU will do the software decoding anyways.

locutus
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post #18 of 30 Old 10-01-2010, 10:07 AM
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5:5 and 60hz with 24hz doesn't add up correctly..

for 5:5 you need a 120hz TV. if your screen only does max 60hz then it's 3:2 pull-down it's doing! Which means you get pull-down judder no matter what. You haven't said what TV you have.

I'm not the 'master' concerning all this but just things I've read and picked up seeing other people on here discuss these things endlessly.

All combos always didn't work out well if I recall the old threads.

You should be able to find if you do a search on some old threads where people tell what worked and what didn't.

I remember people using powerstrip to make final minimal frequency tweaks to get it just right. It required a little work and whatnot to have it perfect. What I gathered most didn't bother to go to those extremes though to get it free from all judder or hiccups. It always didn't work as well for each person depending on monitor/tv and graphics card variations.

The ATi or Nvidia 23hz and 59hz settings which are available in Vista and Win7 seems to be the holy grail of settings for video playback. I'm sorry to say those aren't available in XP for ATi alteast. You have to do the round about way to maybe get them to work through power strip or similar. Which means more hassle and work. All I can remember clearly is it was easier in Win7 Vista and most have abandoned XP because XP lacks many new features in the drivers and whatnot and other things concerning video playback making it easer to get it right in the newer operating systems.
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post #19 of 30 Old 10-01-2010, 06:25 PM
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Some 60hz TV's like some Sony's compensate for this inside,,, I think?,,,,
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post #20 of 30 Old 10-02-2010, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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My PC is connected to a Toshiba 42Z3030D. It can do 120 Hz and I am quite sure that it will do 5:5 pulldown on a 60 Hz signal with 24p source material, because the panel is actually driven with 120 Hz.
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post #21 of 30 Old 10-02-2010, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twilsey View Post

Some 60hz TV's like some Sony's compensate for this inside,,, I think?,,,,

How can they possibly "compensate" other than doing 3:2?

24 does not divide into 60.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #22 of 30 Old 10-03-2010, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locutus266 View Post

My PC is connected to a Toshiba 42Z3030D. It can do 120 Hz and I am quite sure that it will do 5:5 pulldown on a 60 Hz signal with 24p source material, because the panel is actually driven with 120 Hz.

But to get that 5:5 pulldown you must send your TV a 24p signal. if you send it 60hz you are doing 3:2 pulldown on your computer side and then only doubling the 3:2 60hz to 120hz which means you didn't get 5:5 in the end anyway.

Preferably you choose the 23hz setting you can find in your ATi or Nvidia control panels. As it's the same 23.98hz as film & video use rather than the 24hz which is sending actual 24hz compared to your video playback being in 23.98 for real 24p. Tv's usually accept both correct 24p (23.98hz) and actual 24hz. But it's the 24p (23.98hz) that is the proper one to be used.

Sadly you don't get that setting in Windows XP for ATi cards, you have to use the 24hz setting and either hack your drivers or use powerstrip or similar to get the proper 24p (23.98hz) which isn't without it's hassles or troubles. Nvidia I have no idea really about as I've never had graphics from them. All I know they also have a 24hz and 23hz settings somewhere.

And the issues part I was talking about earlier whit HD3200 not doing correct 24p is that it's 23.98hz 24p setting doesn't sync up correctly and you have hiccups now and then by a frame jump or whatever. The discrete HD5000 cards can do proper 24p (23.98hz) which is the setting to have and use if you want the least judder/jumps/kicks or whatever you may want to call it that have trouble with uninterrupted smoothness for 24p video content and a 24p capable TV that can multiply that signal to 48,72,96,120,240hz etc.
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post #23 of 30 Old 10-03-2010, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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But to get that 5:5 pulldown you must send your TV a 24p signal. if you send it 60hz you are doing 3:2 pulldown on your computer side and then only doubling the 3:2 60hz to 120hz which means you didn't get 5:5 in the end anyway.

I think you are right. What I really meant is, that I think my TV can take that 3:2 60 Hz signal and correct it, so its smooth again (e.g. take out the doubled frames and then do a 5:5 boosting it to 120 Hz). That is intended for early Blu-ray players, which cannot do 24p, but only 60p. Unfortunately with my HTPC, there is judder with both 24 Hz and 60 Hz settings. I haven't tried PowerStrip to get the 23 Hz setting, though. Maybe I should give that a try. Also, I haven't tried my setup under Win7...

Keep in mind, that some Blu-rays have exactly 24.000 fps, mostly computer-animated stuff like Pixar does. These should be 100% smooth with the 24 Hz setting and they are not. So I suspect there's generally something wrong timing-wise with the ATI IGP (at least the 3200 HD).
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post #24 of 30 Old 10-03-2010, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

How can they possibly "compensate" other than doing 3:2?

24 does not divide into 60.

Because the advertised "hertz" rating only refers to motion enhancement/frame interpolation (in Sony's case "Motion Flow"), not necessarily the actual refresh rates the panel can utilise.

Frame interpolation "hertz" is not the same thing as refresh rate.

TVs whether they are "60Hz" or "120Hz" can utilise a variety of refresh rates internally, which the manufacturer does not tell you about. For example a 24p input can cause the TV to refesh the panel at 48Hz or 120Hz, regardless of what motion enhancement features it has or doesn't have. A TV sold as a "60Hz" model because it has no motion enhancement feature can still refresh at a rate that is a multiple of 24, which is in fact what some TVs do.
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post #25 of 30 Old 10-04-2010, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I have finally ordered a used GeForce 8200 board from eBay (ASUS M3N78-EMH/HDMI), so we'll know if this one can do smooth 24p in a short while...
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post #26 of 30 Old 10-29-2010, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, GF8200 doesn't work either, same problem...

Plus, desktop luma levels are stuck at 0-255 and there's no way to set them.

Maybe I should really get a HD 5000...
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post #27 of 30 Old 10-29-2010, 03:21 PM
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My ASUS M3N78-EM has 8300 IGP with 9800gt and Xonar and is trouble free. To utilize the on board, I would get a 450 which bitstreams.

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post #28 of 30 Old 10-30-2010, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Under Windows 7 everything seems to work very smooth once I select the 59 hz or 23 hz options for 23.976 material. Aero needs to be disabled, though or it would introduce video judder. These modes are not available under XP, seems like I have to use crappy Win7 then...
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post #29 of 30 Old 10-30-2010, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locutus266 View Post

Under Windows 7 everything seems to work very smooth once I select the 59 hz or 23 hz options for 23.976 material. Aero needs to be disabled, though or it would introduce video judder. These modes are not available under XP, seems like I have to use crappy Win7 then...

What's crappy about W7???? XP is crappy compared to it, unless your running some ancient software that only works in XP.

FFDShow would solve most of your problems, it has a built-in subtitle engine, I know I get the darn subtitles with Gundam Wing, but can't force it to play Dubbed English, so I have to use VLC and I have it forced to play the dubbed content, but I have to enable the secondary audio with every new episode not elegant at all, but until I have access to the entire series on DVD, where I can make rips with dubbed audio only if I wanna watch Gundam Wing that's how I do it.

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post #30 of 30 Old 10-31-2010, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't want to turn this into an "XP vs Win7" thread, so let's focus on the topic again.

Has anybody with an nVidia card out there the option of selecting 23 hz and 59 hz under XP?
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