Is it possible to get HD audio full bitrate, over analog 5.1, EVEN if downsampled? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 202 Old 10-18-2010, 11:58 PM
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I have to agree with that.
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post #92 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 12:16 AM
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Well you have a point but my necessity was to get powerdvd audio decoder to decode the dts hd in a directshow player. The reason for this is I have experienced problems with arcsoft. This was possible under vista. No need to use xp unless you want to decode pcm and dolby codecs, but since the latter are available through ffdshow that solves the problem in vista: Use cyberlink with dts and ffdshow for the rest

I didn't know about the cyberlink powerdvd 9 capability, it was introduced after I switched to powerdvd 10. Can you do me a favor? Can you check if pdvd 9 player (latest build) can get 96/24 with reclock in wasapi mode? I am just curious since I find the new powerdvd 10 bloated and if I can get the previous version to play 96/24 without downsampling I will roll back to pdvd 9
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post #93 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandeBoma View Post

Can you check if pdvd 9 player (latest build) can get 96/24 with reclock in wasapi mode? I am just curious since I find the new powerdvd 10 bloated and if I can get the previous version to play 96/24 without downsampling I will roll back to pdvd 9

No, every *commercial* BD player must downsample HD audio to 48/16 without a PAP-equipped audio device. That's an AACS requirement:

Quote:


A Licensed Player shall not pass, or direct to be passed Decrypted AACS Content to a digital output except:
1.4.1 A digital output of audio, or of the audio portion of other forms of Decrypted AACS Content, in compressed audio format (such as AC3) or in Linear PCM format in which the transmitted information is sampled at no more than 48 kHz and no more than 16 bits.
1.4.2 An output delineated in Table D1, AACS Authorized Digital Outputs, in accordance with any associated restrictions and obligations specified
therein;

As for analog sound cards, Auzen X-Fi HomeTheater HD for PowerDVD and ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 for TMT are the only PAP-equipped cards (and these cards are also capable of bitstreaming HD audio over HDMI).

Using the CyberLink audio decoder in a non-AACS player such as MPC HomeCinema is a completely different story. 96/24 is no problem as long as you use the audio decoder in the last build 2528 of PowerDVD 9.
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post #94 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

No, every *commercial* BD player must downsample HD audio to 48/16 without a PAP-equipped audio device. That's an AACS requirement:



As for analog sound cards, Auzen X-Fi HomeTheater HD for PowerDVD and ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 for TMT are the only PAP-equipped cards (and these cards are also capable of bitstreaming HD audio over HDMI).

Using the CyberLink audio decoder in a non-AACS player such as MPC HomeCinema is a completely different story. 96/24 is no problem as long as you use the audio decoder in the last build 2528 of PowerDVD 9.

But I DO get 96/24 with powerdvd 10 and reclock wasapi... try it and see. and I don't have hometheatre hd, I have the prelude. It is wasapi which makes the difference, without it I get 48/16
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post #95 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandeBoma View Post

But I DO get 96/24 with powerdvd 10 and reclock wasapi... try it and see. and I don't have hometheatre hd, I have the prelude. It is wasapi which makes the difference, without it I get 48/16

Buid 1516? I am pretty sure CyberLink disabled it in the latest build as it is a violation of AACS agreement. Or ReClock is a magic?

If you have PowerDVD 9, why not try it yourself?
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post #96 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 01:15 AM
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I think reclock does the magic somehow... why don't you try the latest build of both pdvd 9 and 10 with wasapi and confirm (or defy) that it does 96/24?
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post #97 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

If you have PowerDVD 9, why not try it yourself?

I don't have the latest build, and the one I have does not do this trick, but I don't want to update unless it works, because the risk of getting a worse version is high with cyberlink "updates"
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post #98 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 01:19 AM
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Yeah, I will check that (just from curiosity).
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post #99 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 11:02 AM
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It looks like ReClock 1.8.7.1 cannot be loaded with PowerDVD 9 Build 2528 (the last one). So...
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post #100 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

It looks like ReClock 1.8.7.1 cannot be loaded with PowerDVD 9 Build 2528 (the last one). So...

Yeah, I have exactly the same problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

No, every *commercial* BD player must downsample HD audio to 48/16 without a PAP audio device

So you can get the full bitrate of DTS HDMA/DD True HD (without having it fall back on the core stream) decoded via the player, only it will (sadly, since it's a world of difference) be downsampled to 16b/48... am I right?

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post #101 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dash View Post

So you can get the full bitrate of DTS HDMA/DD True HD (without having it fall back on the core stream) decoded via the player, only it will (sadly, since it's a world of difference) be downsampled to 16b/48... am I right?

I checked PowerDVD 10 Build 2113 (the latest). If you use ReClock, it depends on the "Output mode" if audio is downsampled or not:

- No Effect: Not downsampled
- Dolby Pro Logic IIx: Downsampled to 48/16
- TrueTheater Surround: Downsampled to 48/16

You may see it as an issue. But there is a more serious issue (in both PowerDVD 9 and 10): when an 8 channel DTS-HD MA track is played back (with "No Effect"), the rear channels are mapped to the side channels and mixed with them and there is no sound at all from the rear speakers. So it is as if only DTS core is decoded (but ReClock reports correct sample rate/bit depth).

The issue occurs only with a non-PAP sound card. If doubt, try to play Surround_DTS-HD_MA_7.1.ISO with PowerDVD 9/10.

CyberLink Audio Decoder itself is fine as there is no such issue outside PowerDVD 9.
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post #102 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 12:09 PM
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thanks rene but i can't verify this because i am 6 channel... most people have 5.1
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post #103 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 12:51 PM
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Has anybody gotten at least one of them to work outside PowerDVD? It looks like none of them works.
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post #104 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

I checked PowerDVD 10 Build 2113 (the latest). If you use ReClock, it depends on the "Output mode" if audio is downsampled or not:

- No Effect: Not downsampled
- Dolby Pro Logic IIx: Downsampled to 48/16
- TrueTheater Surround: Downsampled to 48/16

You may see it as an issue.

Why is that an issue? I mean, I would never apply a DPL2x matrix effect which is used to add 5.1 to stereo audio to listen to a proper 5.1 track.
What am I missing here?

Quote:


But there is a more serious issue (in both PowerDVD 9 and 10): when an 8 channel DTS-HD MA track is played back (with "No Effect"), the rear channels are mapped to the side channels and mixed with them and there is no sound at all from the rear speakers. So it is as if only DTS core is decoded (but ReClock reports correct sample rate/bit depth).


Well, wouldn't than mean anyway that when using those "DPL2x" or "TTSurround" output modes to get surround sound (since you said that choosing "no effect" gives you none), in reality you're just still feeding only a 2.0 audio to get a matrixed 5.1 in output?
Doing that would make no sense at all (*if* I indeed understood what you're saying), since even a normal DTS core would be a lot better... but I started the thread to know if it is possible to avoid doing that ;-)

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post #105 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dash View Post

Why is that an issue? I mean, I would never apply a DPL2x matrix effect which is used to add 5.1 to stereo audio to listen to a proper 5.1 track.
What am I missing here?


Well, wouldn't than mean that anyway that when using the "DPL2x" or "TTSurround" output mode to get surround sound (since you said that choosing "no effect" gives you none), in reality you're just still feeding only a 2.0 audio to get a matrixed 5.1 in output?
Doing that would make no sense at all (*if* I indeed understood what you're saying), since even a normal DTS core would be a lot better... but I started the thread to know if it is possible to avoid doing that ;-)

The issue is an issue only for 8 channel speakers. If you use 6 channel speakers, you will never notice it.
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post #106 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

[/list]6 channel:[list][*]"AuDsInterface"=dword:00000020[*]"AuDsDnmx"=dword:00000080

Thanks vladd but i can not get rid off downmixing to 2 channels:



Maybe i'm on nVidia?

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post #107 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 02:52 PM
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BTW when i googled myself, i found this: (as i told we forget what we did from time to time )

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...5&postcount=19

Pls note that PS.

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post #108 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to get back a bit on the topic title (I think what you guys are trying to achieve is amazing, and i'm very interested in reading what you come up with for full hd audio over analog!):
If in the meantime I'm content with getting the audio downsampled to 16/48 but at least I want the full bitrate instead of the core one, what do I need (remember, over analog outoputs)? See it as a little jump, waiting for better things to come on the not-downsampling front, that I'd like to have since right now I'm with core-only.

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post #109 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 04:44 PM
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OK guys,
No need any tweak: DON'T USE RECLOCK here:

Have a look:



Thx to GrandeBoma btw for forcing us to test it out.


THIS IS THE GRAPH BEHIND MPC-HC.

Test BD: Original Dire Straits/alchemy live.
Test HW: nVidia 460 with 260.89 beta drivers on Seven 32.
Test decoder of PDV10 is coming from v.2113.51

EDIT: Those trials have been made on my second HDD which has no PDVD9 btw.

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post #110 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 05:09 PM
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Sorry, i have to correct myself; it also works with ReClock very well: (WASAPI EXCLUSIVE +)


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post #111 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 05:18 PM
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So madshi,
it's time to use Cyberlink Audio decoder?

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post #112 of 202 Old 10-19-2010, 11:03 PM
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As Vladd pointed out, the DSP part settings are stored in the key

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\[exe name]

and even if UI is absent (like 2528), you can copy and paste those settings of PowerDVD 9.

The information below is just for reference in case you wonder which value controls which.

***Audio***

Speaker environment : Output mode

Headphone : Stereo -> 2 speaker : Stereo -> 6 speaker : No Effect -> 8 speaker : No Effect -> Use S/PDIF -> Use HDMI : PCM Output

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsInterface: 0x00020000
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000002
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsInterface: 0x00000008
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000002
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsInterface: 0x00000020
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000080
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsInterface: 0x00000080
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00001000
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsInterface: 0x00000004
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000002
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsInterface: 0x00100000
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000002

Output mode for Headphone: Stereo -> Dolby Surround Compatible Downmix -> Dolby Headphone -> TrueTheater Surround

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000002
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000008
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000200
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00008000

Output mode for 2 speaker: Stereo -> Dolby Surround Compatible Downmix -> Dolby Virtual Speaker -> TrueTheater Surround

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000002
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00000008
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00002000
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsDnmx: 0x00010000

Output mode for 6 speaker: No Effect -> Dolby Pro Logic IIx -> TrueTheater Surround -> Neo:6

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsChanExpand: 0x00000001
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsChanExpand: 0x00000002
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsChanExpand: 0x00000004
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsChanExpand: 0x00000020

Output mode for 8 speaker: No Effect -> Dolby Pro Logic IIx -> TrueTheater Surround -> Neo:6

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsChanExpand: 0x00000001
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsChanExpand: 0x00000002
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsChanExpand: 0x00000004
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsChanExpand: 0x00000020

Output mode for Use HDMI: PCM Output -> AC3/DTS Pass-thru

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuHDMIMode: 0x00000000
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuHDMIMode: 0x00000001

***Advanced Audio Properties***

*Tab1* Miscellaneous

Dynamic Range Compression: Quiet -> Normal-> Noisy

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AU_DRC_MODE: 0x00000001
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AU_DRC_MODE: 0x00000002
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AU_DRC_MODE: 0x00000003

Bass management: Full range speakers are in use OFF -> ON

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\LFEON: 0x00000000
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\LFEON: 0x00000001

*Tab2* TrueTheater Surround

Multi-channel Environment Impression mode: Movie playback -> Music mode - standard -> Music mode - onstage

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsMEIMode: 0x00000016
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsMEIMode: 0x00000014
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsMEIMode: 0x00000015

Setup

Front
Rear
Center
LFE

*Tab3* Dolby ProLogic IIx

Mode: Movie mode -> Music listening mode -> DDEX mode

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsPL2Mode: 0x00000003
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsPL2Mode: 0x00000002
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsPL2Mode: 0x00000005

*Tab4* Neo:6

Mode: Cinema mode -> Music mode

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsNeo6Mode: 0x00000000
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\CyberLink\\Common\\CLAud\\mpc-hc\\AuDsNeo6Mode: 0x00000001
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post #113 of 202 Old 10-20-2010, 12:22 AM
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It looks like I can't control "Output mode" outside PowerDVD 9. That is, "No Effect" is always applied whatever value I assign to "AuDsChanExpand" in the registry.

So unless I change the values "AuDsInterface" and "AuDsDnmx" manually depending on the channel count of each source, I may not get sounds from surround speakers. Practically CyberLink Audio Decoder is useless for 8 channel speakers. It is still good for 6 channel speakers, of course (full DTS-HD decodig with the *constant* 6 channel count, correct sample rate and bit-depth).

ArcSoft Audio Decoder HD, a pure audio decoder without DSP, is overall a better solution (and the only solution for full DTS-HD decodig with *correct* channel count, sample rate and bit-depth). That's why eac3to uses it by default.
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post #114 of 202 Old 10-20-2010, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

ArcSoft Audio Decoder HD, a pure audio decoder, is a better solution in this respect (and the only solution for full DTS-HD decodig with correct channel count, sample rate and bit-depth).

"THIS IS IT!" Michael Jackson said.
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post #115 of 202 Old 10-20-2010, 01:37 AM
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@Dash, we have been explaining to you that you are not forced to get the downsampling if you do things right, you can get analog audio bitperfect with bravura "no problemo"

I will give you yet ANOTHER trick to get HD audio without downsampling which can be done with ati 5xxx cards

Set up the player to output to hdmi and select pcm decoded (not bitstreaming! this is crucial)

Now set up reclock in wasapi mode for both pcm and bitstreaming, and as a wasapi device select "x-fi bravura speakers"

In this configuration the player will believe it is sending bitperfect audio to hdmi through a PAP, and in fact it would, but here comes reclock which intercepts the pcm data stream before it reaches the hdmi port and redirects it to the audio card analog section. So you get exactly what you would be getting over digital hdmi, but you get it through analog with all bass managment and delays performed by the sound card

imagine the stream as the passengers in an airplane, directed to A (hdmi)
the player is the airport security, which makes sure they are all going to A (hdmi)
after the airplane took off, reclock hijacks the machine and redirects it to B (your sound card), and the airport is oblivious of what happens because it's got no control on the flight after the doors are closed
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post #116 of 202 Old 10-20-2010, 04:07 AM
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renethx about the Surround_DTS-HD_MA_7.1.ISO and the other trueHD.

Which cd/dvd 'mounting' software do you use with those? I've tried two different ones and they can't read and only say the disc is damaged or is incompatible.
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post #117 of 202 Old 10-20-2010, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthog View Post

renethx about the Surround_DTS-HD_MA_7.1.ISO and the other trueHD.

Which cd/dvd 'mounting' software do you use with those? I've tried two different ones and they can't read and only say the disc is damaged or is incompatible.

VirtualCloneDrive.
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post #118 of 202 Old 10-20-2010, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

VirtualCloneDrive.

Tried, both the iso files don't work with this either.
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post #119 of 202 Old 10-20-2010, 06:16 AM
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Then m2ts files. You have to create ISOs with Clown_BD and ImgBurn to play them back with PowerDVD.
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post #120 of 202 Old 10-20-2010, 07:08 AM
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Thanks, the .m2ts files work to play directly in TMT3 or MPC-HC

Though seems I've not gotten the MPC and Arcsoft HDaudio to mingle. No audio with that.

TMT3 plays the DTS-HD with audio and in the player it says DTS-HD but reclock says 48000 Hz, 2/6/8 channel(s), 16bits PCM
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