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markabuckley's Avatar markabuckley 08:54 AM 12-11-2010
question on bass management please .... bear with me

I have a Pio 59TXi - which does not support latest HD codecs, but does have 8 channel USB in - would be perfect with a HTPC except for the fact that you can't apply a 10dB boost to the incoming LFE signal - which was only introduced on later models - therefore the LFE subwoofer signal is too low

if I set in TMT5 - bass management on, with Subwoofer = Off and Mains = Large

am I right in thinking that will redirect all LFE to the main speakers ? and at the correct level ? ie with the 10dB added ?

if so I'm onto a winner as that would mean I'd be receiving into the Pioneer 5 channel (minus the subwoofer) lossless, with the LFE channel muxed (at the correct level) onto the front mains

this wouldn't be great if it wasn't for the fact that the Pioneer then applies bass management onto this incoming signal - so anything under 80hz gets redirected to the Sub - ok its a bit of a convoluted route, but its all in digital domain so should be ok

thats assuming the bass management in TMT5 does what I think it does ?

cheers

S1DIMMER's Avatar S1DIMMER 11:57 AM 12-11-2010
I downloaded the trial of TMT5 and installed it. I put cloudy with a chance of meatballs 3D in and hit play then I lose signal to my TV? Just a black screen. Anyone know the fix for this?
Paul E. Fox, II's Avatar Paul E. Fox, II 03:28 PM 12-11-2010
Ok...starting to do a little research in the bitstreaming audio.

Right now I have an older Radeon 4670 installed and it's been pretty solid but without converting to LPCM, I can't access the HD Audio.

I knew there are newer cards but is the ATI/AMD brand my only choice for bitstreaming using TMT5 or can I go with the Nvidia stuff...say a GTS 430/450

Right now, my HTPC is quieter than my room and I need it to stay that way. Don't want to get the NVidia card (or the Radeon for that matter) and suddenly have a lot of noise.

What are my options?
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 03:31 PM 12-11-2010
The new nVidia cards that support bitstreaming (430/450/etc) are fine, but make SURE it supports bitstreaming. Some of the new 5xx cards DON'T. TMT5 supports nVidia, AMD, and Xonar bitstreaming, so, those are your options.
Paul E. Fox, II's Avatar Paul E. Fox, II 03:48 PM 12-11-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

The new nVidia cards that support bitstreaming (430/450/etc) are fine, but make SURE it supports bitstreaming. Some of the new 5xx cards DON'T. TMT5 supports nVidia, AMD, and Xonar bitstreaming, so, those are your options.

No resolution limiting (PAP problems) on the NVidia 4xx series? That seems to come up a lot and I keep seeing ATI/AMD list as the "only" solution.

As to being sure it supports bitstreaming, other than it be stated in the specs and checking here, how would I know?

I'm knowledgeable enough to break a lot of things but I'm still not 100% on all of this.
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 03:50 PM 12-11-2010
It would be on the nvidia website as supporting TrueHD and DTS-HD MA HD audio. The cards I mentioned support it. The 430 is not recommended if you watch a lot of interlaced video content. I personally have an AMD 5870 in my main machine and an nVidia 450 in my other. Love them both.
Paul E. Fox, II's Avatar Paul E. Fox, II 03:56 PM 12-11-2010
Yeah...I'm actually thinking 450 if I go the Nvidia route.

I was looking at both the Radeon 5670 and 5750 AMD/ATI stuff...

I've used ATI cards forever...never had an Nvidia that I recall. Is the driver support similar in both? One better than the other as far as Video goes? I'm not really much of a gamer so that's not really an issue.
gorthocar's Avatar gorthocar 04:25 PM 12-11-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

The new nVidia cards that support bitstreaming (430/450/etc) are fine, but make SURE it supports bitstreaming. Some of the new 5xx cards DON'T. TMT5 supports nVidia, AMD, and Xonar bitstreaming, so, those are your options.

Those are your bitstreaming options for add-in cards, but TMT3/5 also supports bitstreaming with Intel integrated graphics on Core i3 & i5 + H55/H57 chipsets, and I assume it will also support the next gen "Sandybridge" integrated graphics coming soon. That may be more of a change than you want to deal with, though.

If you go the nvidia route, do your homework because not all of the 4xx cards support bitstreaming either.
Paul E. Fox, II's Avatar Paul E. Fox, II 07:21 PM 12-11-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorthocar View Post

If you go the nvidia route, do your homework because not all of the 4xx cards support bitstreaming either.

So far, I'm leaning toward the GTS 450.

Found the Asus version with a regular HDMI connection that I like and the feedback seems to indicate that it's very quiet and cool under normal loads.

From what I can find, it does support bitstreaming and the HiRes Audio Codecs. I see that Arcsoft is listed as "supported by".

Not really sure if the manufacturer matters much...just not sure I'd jump on a name I didn't recognize without checking here first.
markabuckley's Avatar markabuckley 06:28 AM 12-12-2010
has anyone else tested DTS re-encode via SPDIF ?

I can't get it to work - playing a Bluray with TruHD track, no matter what settings I use (and you can't change them on the fly while playing) I get 2 channel PCM audio

should be re-encoding to DTS ... but its not - any ideas ?
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 08:41 AM 12-12-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul E. Fox, II View Post

Yeah...I'm actually thinking 450 if I go the Nvidia route.

I was looking at both the Radeon 5670 and 5750 AMD/ATI stuff...

I've used ATI cards forever...never had an Nvidia that I recall. Is the driver support similar in both? One better than the other as far as Video goes? I'm not really much of a gamer so that's not really an issue.

They all have their own set of issues. No solution is perfect and all have little flaws that can be annoying at times. That being said, I'm not having any issues with my current setup on either machine.
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 08:42 AM 12-12-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorthocar View Post

Those are your bitstreaming options for add-in cards, but TMT3/5 also supports bitstreaming with Intel integrated graphics on Core i3 & i5 + H55/H57 chipsets, and I assume it will also support the next gen "Sandybridge" integrated graphics coming soon. That may be more of a change than you want to deal with, though.

If you go the nvidia route, do your homework because not all of the 4xx cards support bitstreaming either.

Yes, that's right, I did forget about Clarkdale. Sandybridge is where I want to be with my next laptop, but, hopefully they fix the 24Hz issues with it. Clarkdale probably could be fixed with a driver but to my knowledge there's still some flakiness with 24Hz playback.
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 08:44 AM 12-12-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul E. Fox, II View Post

So far, I'm leaning toward the GTS 450.

Found the Asus version with a regular HDMI connection that I like and the feedback seems to indicate that it's very quiet and cool under normal loads.

From what I can find, it does support bitstreaming and the HiRes Audio Codecs. I see that Arcsoft is listed as "supported by".

Not really sure if the manufacturer matters much...just not sure I'd jump on a name I didn't recognize without checking here first.

That's the exact card I have in my bedroom HTPC. It's a great card. Very quiet, very cool considering I've got it stuffed into an HTPC case, and performs very well. It doesn't really like my receiver all that much (pio 820-k) but I've learned how to make them play nice together. This is what I mean about little annoying glitches that you have to work around. They all have their idiosyncracies.
Paul E. Fox, II's Avatar Paul E. Fox, II 09:17 AM 12-12-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

It doesn't really like my receiver all that much (pio 820-k) but I've learned how to make them play nice together. This is what I mean about little annoying glitches that you have to work around. They all have their idiosyncracies.

Little curious as to what you mean by this.

I had a Pioneer Elite receiver in here before I got my Onkyo and I could NEVER get it to work with HDMI between the HTPC and the Receiver.

Do you have handshake problems or is it just weird resolution issues?
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 09:27 AM 12-12-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul E. Fox, II View Post

Little curious as to what you mean by this.

I had a Pioneer Elite receiver in here before I got my Onkyo and I could NEVER get it to work with HDMI between the HTPC and the Receiver.

Do you have handshake problems or is it just weird resolution issues?

Neither. My issue was far more complicated than that. On some interlaced videos that were recorded and played back in 7MC, I would get the video dropping out. I'd get several frames of black, then a few of video, then black, then video, etc. It drove me insane. Then I discovered a setting the nVidia control panel (mine's crashing when I try to bring it up right now....another story for another time...so I can't check the exact setting name) that basically tells the receiver that it's sending video. When set to automatic or (I think) desktop, I'd get this problem. Setting it to the video setting, the problem went away and I haven't had an issue since. Also interesting to note is that this problem did NOT occur when the 450 was attached directly to my TV. It only happens when connected to the Pio. I love the receiver (and love my vsx-21TXH even more ) and since I have a work around it's not a big deal. It was at the time as it took me several days to figure this out. However, ALL solutions have these weird little problems from time to time. So, pick your poison and learn how to work around any issues that come up.
gorthocar's Avatar gorthocar 01:06 PM 12-12-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post

Yes, that's right, I did forget about Clarkdale. Sandybridge is where I want to be with my next laptop, but, hopefully they fix the 24Hz issues with it. Clarkdale probably could be fixed with a driver but to my knowledge there's still some flakiness with 24Hz playback.

As you said, they all have their issues.

Intel's 24 Hz playback is 24.000 Hz instead of 23.976 Hz, and just like clockwork, you can see a duplicated frame every 42 seconds. Although it annoys me, it annoys me less than the others. I wish TMT had the ability to speed up a movie from 23.976 to 24.000.

ATI 5xxx can display 23.976 Hz. However, after playing a BD for a while it starts dropping frames like crazy. Hitting pause and then play, it is OK, for a while. Sometimes it happens as frequently as every 10 or 20 minutes, but I have seen it go as long as 3 hours before it happens. Using reclock to force v-sync seems to fix it, but then when bitstreaming audio with reclock, my lip sync is off enough to really annoy me. Also, the video output level is wrong when playing live ATSC in W7MC; if I set the video output level to "full", W7MC ATSC is OK, but then I see crushed whites and blacks for other media.

My old nvidia + xonar had similar problems as the ATI 5xxx. It starts dropping frames after a while, and it has the wrong video output level in W7MC live ATSC.
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 01:14 PM 12-12-2010
At the moment I'm not using 24Hz on my AMD 5870 as my TV only support 60Hz. When the TV gets replaced, then I'm going to have to revisit that scenario. I always use ReClock with TMT. I've not noticed the lipsync issue, but, perhaps I've got it configured differently. (I turn off all the ReClock stuff when bitstreaming so it doesn't try to "fix" anything....) But yea, they all have issues. Pick the issues you know you can live with and go for it.
cybrsage's Avatar cybrsage 01:37 PM 12-12-2010
My 5670 and Pioneer 1120 play nicely...just as a note.
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 01:48 PM 12-12-2010
My AMD 5870 also has no problem with the vsx-21txh.
IAM4UK's Avatar IAM4UK 07:07 AM 12-13-2010
I put TMT5 through its paces by playing "Gladiator" on blu-ray. Looked and sounded great (remastered, yellow-UPC version); however, about every 45 minutes something strange happened. The picture would freeze while the audio stuttered. About five seconds later, the picture would skip as if catching up. Then, normal playback would resume.

Any ideas on what could cause this? It never happened with TMT3. The computer is a C2Duo at 3.0GHz, 4GB DDR3 RAM, Win7x64, nVidia 9600 and ASUS Xonar. The blu-ray disc itself has no visible defects, scratches or smudges.
TViewer2000's Avatar TViewer2000 08:32 AM 12-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by S1DIMMER View Post

I downloaded the trial of TMT5 and installed it. I put cloudy with a chance of meatballs 3D in and hit play then I lose signal to my TV? Just a black screen. Anyone know the fix for this?

Mitsubishi TV by chance?
S1DIMMER's Avatar S1DIMMER 02:11 PM 12-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TViewer2000 View Post

Mitsubishi TV by chance?

Nope. The TV is a Panasonic 58" VT25 3D plasma.
Davinleeds's Avatar Davinleeds 03:40 PM 12-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAM4UK View Post

I put TMT5 through its paces by playing "Gladiator" on blu-ray. Looked and sounded great (remastered, yellow-UPC version); however, about every 45 minutes something strange happened. The picture would freeze while the audio stuttered. About five seconds later, the picture would skip as if catching up. Then, normal playback would resume.

Any ideas on what could cause this? It never happened with TMT3. The computer is a C2Duo at 3.0GHz, 4GB DDR3 RAM, Win7x64, nVidia 9600 and ASUS Xonar. The blu-ray disc itself has no visible defects, scratches or smudges.

This happened to me on my i3/530 system. Turning HW acceleration off did the trick. Inception was the disk.
SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 03:47 PM 12-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davinleeds View Post

This happened to me on my i3/530 system. Turning HW acceleration off did the trick. Inception was the disk.

I'm guessing Gladiator is another one of the VC1 titles. sigh.
ArcSoft_Jason's Avatar ArcSoft_Jason 06:24 PM 12-13-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul E. Fox, II View Post

Right now I have an older Radeon 4670 installed and it's been pretty solid but without converting to LPCM, I can't access the HD Audio.

Perhaps you're just simplifying for brevity but just in case you aren't...

Everything gets converted to PCM sooner or later. A lot of people think they're going to suddenly hear better audio quality if they bitstream but bitstream isn't about that with 99% of discs with HD Audio will have the exact same bitrate (48khz) whether the player bitstreams or decodes the data. Bitstreaming is about where to decode. There are technical advantages to decoding on the AVR, but audio quality isn't one of them.

Bitstreaming has really become too synonymous with a protected audio path even though the reason why is understandable. (Same cards and B is required to do A.) PAP comes into play on a tiny tiny subset of discs, very few of them being a studio movie you've heard of.

But maybe you know all that, and you spend a lot of time listening to Dave Mathews or Chris Botti concert discs. And if that's you, cool, you're at least on a reasonable course with some potential tangible quality benefit. But I always hate to see people start down this path, navigate all the compexity, and then wonder why their AVATAR disc sounds exactly the same after all the time they've put in.
lippy2day's Avatar lippy2day 07:52 PM 12-13-2010
Did the 'looping' issue get resolved in 5? Meaning, at the of play it looped back and started playing again?

Sorry in advanced if I missed it.
babgvant's Avatar babgvant 11:25 AM 12-14-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by S1DIMMER View Post

I downloaded the trial of TMT5 and installed it. I put cloudy with a chance of meatballs 3D in and hit play then I lose signal to my TV? Just a black screen. Anyone know the fix for this?

What video card?
mikeaymar's Avatar mikeaymar 01:04 PM 12-14-2010
Jason
Good explanation of the bitrate and perceived quality of audio. However, isn't there another reason to bitstream via HDMI? Namely, to get 7.1 channels. Otherwise, with a digital path you can only get 5.1 channels, and with an analog path, while you can get 7.1, there are other potential problems - audio quaility, background hum (problem I had), ... A PC just isn't a friendly place for analog circuitry.
Maybe there aren't that many Bluray discs with 7.1 anyway, I don't know.
Thx, as usual, for your continued participation in these various user forums.
Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcSoft_Jason View Post

Perhaps you're just simplifying for brevity but just in case you aren't...

Everything gets converted to PCM sooner or later. A lot of people think they're going to suddenly hear better audio quality if they bitstream but bitstream isn't about that with 99% of discs with HD Audio will have the exact same bitrate (48khz) whether the player bitstreams or decodes the data. Bitstreaming is about where to decode. There are technical advantages to decoding on the AVR, but audio quality isn't one of them.

Bitstreaming has really become too synonymous with a protected audio path even though the reason why is understandable. (Same cards and B is required to do A.) PAP comes into play on a tiny tiny subset of discs, very few of them being a studio movie you've heard of.

But maybe you know all that, and you spend a lot of time listening to Dave Mathews or Chris Botti concert discs. And if that's you, cool, you're at least on a reasonable course with some potential tangible quality benefit. But I always hate to see people start down this path, navigate all the compexity, and then wonder why their AVATAR disc sounds exactly the same after all the time they've put in.


SamuriHL's Avatar SamuriHL 01:10 PM 12-14-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaymar View Post

Jason
Good explanation of the bitrate and perceived quality of audio. However, isn't there another reason to bitstream via HDMI? Namely, to get 7.1 channels. Otherwise, with a digital path you can only get 5.1 channels, and with an analog path, while you can get 7.1, there are other potential problems - audio quaility, background hum (problem I had), ... A PC just isn't a friendly place for analog circuitry.
Maybe there aren't that many Bluray discs with 7.1 anyway, I don't know.
Thx, as usual, for your continued participation in these various user forums.
Mike

Um, what? That's not true at all. It doesn't matter where it's decoded, as long as the decoder supports decoding to 7.1 (and ArcSoft's does while "the other guys" don't ) you will get 7.1.
ArcSoft_Jason's Avatar ArcSoft_Jason 01:27 PM 12-14-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaymar View Post

Jason
Good explanation of the bitrate and perceived quality of audio. However, isn't there another reason to bitstream via HDMI? Namely, to get 7.1 channels. Otherwise, with a digital path you can only get 5.1 channels, and with an analog path, while you can get 7.1, there are other potential problems - audio quaility, background hum (problem I had), ... A PC just isn't a friendly place for analog circuitry.
Maybe there aren't that many Bluray discs with 7.1 anyway, I don't know.
Thx, as usual, for your continued participation in these various user forums.
Mike

As Sam said, I don't think your issues are typical in regards to analog.

It sounds like maybe you're overlooking sending the decoded PCM right over the same HDMI connection?

Anyway, it's true that a SPDIF connection maxes out the bandwidth at 5.1.

And it's certainly possible your system has some hum with analog that doesn't occur with digital but I'd say that's at best not particularly common.

7.1 tracks are indeed fairly rare, but probably not as rare as high-bitrate audio if I had to bet.
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