Totally Confused RE: ATI 1080p/24Hz - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 11-03-2010, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I've been researching and reading the various threads, messages, and comments on what to do to get the correct 24Hz (23.976) signal out of an ATI HDMI connection.

So to get 23.976 Hz out of my ATI 5850 (CCC 10.9a), do I put it on 24Hz or 23Hz in CCC? I had it on 24Hz, but noticed a slight skip in the picture every so often. My worry is if the good ATI folks didn't know 24Hz is actually 23.976Hz in AV-land, why would 23Hz be 23.976 instead 23.000. I suppose I could try it, but the problem is that I'm running the signal through a DVDO Duo, so I'm worried that it sort of compensates and it is not easily discernible. (Ok, and I'm too lazy to rewire everything).

I'm hesitant to use ReClock, because based on my readings on this forum, it causes problems with Hi-Def Audio bitstreaming, which took me a long time to get working.

Can someone please put me out of my misery? And while we're at it, should I have the 1080i/60Hz on 1080i/59Hz because of the whole 59.96Hz thing?

Thanks in advance.

Cam
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post #2 of 27 Old 11-03-2010, 01:05 PM
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So many people were so confused by 23.876 that ATI and I beleve Nvidia also use 24 for 24.000 23 for 23.976. (The just present the first 2 digits of the frequency and nothing to the right of the decimal point)
I belive from a PC you should also use 59 instead of 60 also so that the audio is properly trasmitted and you don't get stuttering.
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post #3 of 27 Old 11-03-2010, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your guidance, but I still have a couple of problems:

1) There is no 23Hz option in the CCC menu, so I have no idea how to make that happen.
2) When I try to set the 1080i/60Hz to 1080i/59, the CCC changes the resolution to 1080p. It won't accept 1080i/59, but does take 1080p/59.

Just shoot me now...I have no idea why these guys make this so difficult. It's not like they had to invent this stuff from scratch; the AV requirements were defined and implemented before the HTPC vendors jumped in. And they all do it, Intel, Nvidia, and ATI. Very sad...
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post #4 of 27 Old 11-04-2010, 08:20 AM
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So everything works OK as 1080i/60?
What is your souce of 24fps content?
Are you sure your display will accept 1080p/24 over HDMI?
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post #5 of 27 Old 11-04-2010, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, 1080i/60 looks okay but it is harder to catch glitches because it is a TV signal from a cable tuner. The 1080p/24 signal from Blu-ray drive definitely shows the tiny hiccup every 3-4 minutes (using TMT3). I've used a PS3 with my Pioneer Plasma and DVDO Duo for watching BDVD movies for quite some time, so I'm pretty sure the issue is with the HTPC.
One thing to mention is that I had to use an Onkyo receiver's EDID data to get the bitstream audio to work because I have a Denon AVR. The DVDO Duo supposedly passes through the EDID info from the TV and the AVR, but since I overrode it, the CCC thinks I'm connected to an Onkyo receiver. But I don't know why that would impact the 24Hz vs. 23.976Hz thing.
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post #6 of 27 Old 11-05-2010, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone think that making a custom EDID file for Pioneer Plasma + Onkyo Receiver (in place of real Denon) would at least give me the option of selecting 1080i/59 and 1080p/23?

Or should I just give up and live with the tiny hiccup during Bluray playback?
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post #7 of 27 Old 11-05-2010, 03:50 PM
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I can't help you any more I don't have an ATI card and I don't have a blue -ray drive.
I do beleive the problem can be solved by someone who a configuration close to yours.
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post #8 of 27 Old 11-05-2010, 07:49 PM
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I have an ATI 5000 card with TMT3 also and I get stutters no matter what I do

If I agree with you then we will both be wrong
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post #9 of 27 Old 11-06-2010, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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So I figured out that if I uncheck the GPU Scaling, then I see the 23Hz value in the drop down list, but CCC still doesn't let me select it.
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post #10 of 27 Old 11-06-2010, 03:26 PM
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Don't know if this is your issue or not but this is what I had to do in order to get 23Hz and 59Hz to show up in Windows' options. Switching to them in CCC itself was a no-go. Force 1080p24 and 1080p60 should add 23 and 59 to the dropdown.. yes, very confusing...

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post #11 of 27 Old 11-06-2010, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Don't know if this is your issue or not but this is what I had to do in order to get 23Hz and 59Hz to show up in Windows' options. Switching to them in CCC itself was a no-go. Force 1080p24 and 1080p60 should add 23 and 59 to the dropdown.. yes, very confusing...

You would lose 24.000 and 60.000 doing this.

The easiest way is to select 23 from drop down list of screen refresh rates.
LL
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post #12 of 27 Old 11-07-2010, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so I tried selecting 23Hz from Windows Control Display Control Panel, and that works, but then the problem is that because CCC doesn't support it, I can't use Hot Key's to switch between 23Hz for Bluray movies and 59Hz for watching TV. So I found a solution here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post18039274

Which in summary says to create CCC Profiles for 24Hz and 60Hz (really 30Hz Interlaced), and then go into the individual profile files (e.g. 1080p24.xml) and modify the refresh rate values to be 23Hz and 29Hz. So I've tried that and Windows Display Control Panel correctly shows 23Hz and 29Hz Interlaced for each profile, and my DVDO Duo shows the incoming signal at 24Hz and 60Hz interlaced, respectively. The latter validates that 23Hz is really 23.976Hz which shows up in the DVDO as 24Hz (and the same for 59.94Hz/60Hz).

I tested a Bluray movie and didn't notice any hiccups and TV signal also looks good, so the (HTPC) world is once again a better place.

Thanks all for your help with this issue.
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post #13 of 27 Old 11-07-2010, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariner888 View Post

You would lose 24.000 and 60.000 doing this.

The easiest way is to select 23 from drop down list of screen refresh rates.

Not sure which OS you're talking about, but for me on Win7 those options are only available in the dropdown by checking the boxes I showed, and they don't disable 24.0 or 60.0.



Glad you got everything working, OP.
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post #14 of 27 Old 11-07-2010, 04:21 PM
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does your tv support 24p?

i tried doing it with mine and i get bad tearing about 1/3 way from the bottom of the screen and my tv doesn't support 24p (panny p50s1).
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post #15 of 27 Old 11-07-2010, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camnito View Post

Okay, so I tried selecting 23Hz from Windows Control Display Control Panel, and that works, but then the problem is that because CCC doesn't support it, I can't use Hot Key's to switch between 23Hz for Bluray movies and 59Hz for watching TV. So I found a solution here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post18039274

Which in summary says to create CCC Profiles for 24Hz and 60Hz (really 30Hz Interlaced), and then go into the individual profile files (e.g. 1080p24.xml) and modify the refresh rate values to be 23Hz and 29Hz. So I've tried that and Windows Display Control Panel correctly shows 23Hz and 29Hz Interlaced for each profile, and my DVDO Duo shows the incoming signal at 24Hz and 60Hz interlaced, respectively. The latter validates that 23Hz is really 23.976Hz which shows up in the DVDO as 24Hz (and the same for 59.94Hz/60Hz).

I tested a Bluray movie and didn't notice any hiccups and TV signal also looks good, so the (HTPC) world is once again a better place.

Thanks all for your help with this issue.

Modifying the profile xml should work for single monitor configuration, but not as well in dual monitor set up. Need to make sure the actual refresh rate does not revert to 24.000/60.000.
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post #16 of 27 Old 11-07-2010, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Not sure which OS you're talking about, but for me on Win7 those options are only available in the dropdown by checking the boxes I showed, and they don't disable 24.0 or 60.0.



Glad you got everything working, OP.

1. Selecting 24/60 actually gives you 23.976/59.940.

2. Any card compliant with CEA-861-E specification ought to support 23.976/24.000/59.950/60.000 out of the box if the monitor's EDID declares support for VIC 32 and VIC 16.
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post #17 of 27 Old 11-11-2010, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariner888 View Post

1. Selecting 24/60 actually gives you 23.976/59.940.

2. Any card compliant with CEA-861-E specification ought to support 23.976/24.000/59.950/60.000 out of the box if the monitor's EDID declares support for VIC 32 and VIC 16.

Bit of a delayed response here, but you're certainly correct regarding the first point. My apologies.

I can't speak to the technical details, but I did have to do a new Win7 install in order to use the SSD I bought the other day, and for whatever reason those rates definitely don't show up for this HDTV on a stock + Catalyst install. On the other hand, my actual Dell monitor has the 59Hz/60Hz options out of the box and nothing lower.



I'm just glad the "force" option works, but if you have another solution I'm all ears.
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post #18 of 27 Old 11-11-2010, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

...


I'm just glad the "force" option works, but if you have another solution I'm all ears.

I'm afraid this is the only solution for 4x cards.
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post #19 of 27 Old 11-11-2010, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariner888 View Post

1. Selecting 24/60 actually gives you 23.976/59.940.

23 Hz option = 23.976 Hz
24 Hz option = 24.000 Hz
59 Hz option = 59.940 Hz
60 Hz option = 60.000 Hz
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post #20 of 27 Old 11-12-2010, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariner888 View Post

I'm afraid this is the only solution for 4x cards.

Well, this card (4350 silent) doesn't seem to be able to do 60i hardware deinterlacing at a stable rate, so I am looking toward a replacement at some point. Do the 5/6 series have another way to force the refresh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

23 Hz option = 23.976 Hz
24 Hz option = 24.000 Hz
59 Hz option = 59.940 Hz
60 Hz option = 60.000 Hz

I'm sure he knows that, but in this particular instance selecting 60 doesn't actually set it. It drops back to 59 immediately. Likewise for the other rate.
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post #21 of 27 Old 11-12-2010, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camnito View Post

Okay, so I tried selecting 23Hz from Windows Control Display Control Panel, and that works, but then the problem is that because CCC doesn't support it, I can't use Hot Key's to switch between 23Hz for Bluray movies and 59Hz for watching TV.

You can also use ResChange. It exposes every resolution/rate supported by the display driver for mapping to a hotkey combo and works with any GPU.
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post #22 of 27 Old 11-12-2010, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Well, this card (4350 silent) doesn't seem to be able to do 60i hardware deinterlacing at a stable rate, so I am looking toward a replacement at some point. Do the 5/6 series have another way to force the refresh?
The 5x cards should give you all refresh rates without using the force NTSC option.

Not sure about 6 series. Perhaps you could ask Rene about it.
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post #23 of 27 Old 11-12-2010, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
I'm sure he knows that, but in this particular instance selecting 60 doesn't actually set it. It drops back to 59 immediately. Likewise for the other rate.
Ah, I was confused to why he would say that when I was sure that he knew. I understand now.
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post #24 of 27 Old 11-17-2010, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so I jumped through the hoops and manually modified the profile xml files for CCC to be able to get 1080p at 23Hz (as reported by Win 7 Screen Resolution properties), but that doesn't work either, and it is actually worse than before when I had the refresh rate at 24Hz.
With 23Hz, the Bluray is playing fine, but then every few minutes several frames start slowing down (about 3-5 seconds) as opposed to the tiny hiccup when I had it on 24Hz (small hiccup every few minutes).
I'm starting to think that 24Hz=24.000Hz and 23Hz=23.000Hz and there's no way to get to 23.976Hz. This is really getting irritating. Thanks everyone for helping, otherwise I'd just lose my mind.
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post #25 of 27 Old 11-17-2010, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camnito View Post

Okay, so I jumped through the hoops and manually modified the profile xml files for CCC to be able to get 1080p at 23Hz (as reported by Win 7 Screen Resolution properties), but that doesn't work either, and it is actually worse than before when I had the refresh rate at 24Hz.
With 23Hz, the Bluray is playing fine, but then every few minutes several frames start slowing down (about 3-5 seconds) as opposed to the tiny hiccup when I had it on 24Hz (small hiccup every few minutes).
I'm starting to think that 24Hz=24.000Hz and 23Hz=23.000Hz and there's no way to get to 23.976Hz. This is really getting irritating. Thanks everyone for helping, otherwise I'd just lose my mind.

23hz is not 23.000. It's either 23.976 or 24.000 depending on the card.

With a 4x card, it's 24.000 out of the box. Need to use force NTSC option to get 23.976.

This flaw is supposedly rectified in the 5 series, but apparently not in your 5850. Try using the force NTSC option.

There may be a number of causes for your playback problem. Use a tool like PowerStrip, Reclock or MPC to measure the actual refresh rate.
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post #26 of 27 Old 11-18-2010, 11:01 AM
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I've played around with this setting - on my ATI 5450 - for a while and found that setting it to 24hz provided the smoothest playback, but I started noticing that the lipsync was off and no amount of fiddling with the refresh rates, using reclock (bitstreaming) or messing with my receiver would fix it. In the end I switched back to 60hz and just dealt with some of the micro-stutters.
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post #27 of 27 Old 11-18-2010, 11:37 AM
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Please post the full model of your TV. Only a few of the newest plasmas will take a 24hz input IIRC. Your PS3 has settings for "Off" and "Auto", so if you put it on Auto and your TV won't support it, it'll just send 60.
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