Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sound dropouts View Post

I used all three cards and never was able to get perfect playback. I must have very sensitive eyes, but I saw EVERY frame skip/drop. I could tell the time to within 5 minutes because of the periodic nature of the frame skip. With intel it was every 40 seconds, with ati it was every 7 minutes, with nvidia every minute.

Eventually I just moved to a sagetv extender and now I have no issues.

So the sage does it fine huh? They need to make a special video card that is designed for media playback that can handle refresh rates like a blu ray player, that would be sweet.
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post #32 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 03:16 PM
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None of the manufacturers (AMD/ATI/Intel) are going to invest R&D funds into something that would only target 2% of an already very small group/portion of people/the population (i.e. AV fanatics).
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post #33 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

None of the manufacturers (AMD/ATI/Intel) are going to invest R&D funds into something that would only target 2% of an already very small group/portion of people/the population (i.e. AV fanatics).

They may be aiming at a larger market with CE devices. Some of the Intel Atom processors with integrated graphics are going into standalone Blu-ray players, such as the Sony Google TV BD player. I wonder if they get 23.976 right.

Bazinga!

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post #34 of 1286 Old 05-08-2011, 01:29 AM
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Doesn't Zacate do all this correctly?
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post #35 of 1286 Old 05-08-2011, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by theFan View Post

Doesn't Zacate do all this correctly?

None of them do it perfect. And seamless switching is also a big issue. I guess xbmc can do it pretty well.
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post #36 of 1286 Old 05-08-2011, 08:30 AM
 
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I am happy that I am in the majority of people who do not notice the problem.

I would like to see the industry start to use a good fps rate...24fps is horribly slow and causes issues in action movies even if played at the exact rate they filmed it at.
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post #37 of 1286 Old 05-08-2011, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I am happy that I am in the majority of people who do not notice the problem.

I would like to see the industry start to use a good fps rate...24fps is horribly slow and causes issues in action movies even if played at the exact rate they filmed it at.

I also notice the skips like an annoying hiccup every minute or two with my GT430 HTPC but don't see it on my Oppo BDP.

I frame double my HTPC output to 48Hz.

Recently I have begun experimenting with frame interpolation and have been getting very good results on 720p and lower resolutions.
This is on a Core i3-530 and the GT430. I do not get the "clay faces" look or flashes/tearing on fast moving scenes

1080p and fast moving scenes is still out of reach of my HTPC setup.
The cheeseslices test is one example

As an experiment, I set up a Core i7-950@4GHz with a pair of GTX460s.

I am using The Smoothvideo Project for interpolation, CoreAVC for decode and MadVR for rendering. All three support GPU offload.

This will pass the cheese slices test @1080p/48Hz, so for the moment a mini render farm is still needed at 1080p
but looks like things have begun to change as the GPU and CPUs become faster and run cooler.
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post #38 of 1286 Old 05-08-2011, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorthocar View Post

They may be aiming at a larger market with CE devices. Some of the Intel Atom processors with integrated graphics are going into standalone Blu-ray players, such as the Sony Google TV BD player. I wonder if they get 23.976 right.

That Intel Atom is CE4100. It is x86 compatible (I think) but it's not available for PCs, only for set-top boxes and TVs. It is in Boxee box and many Sony BD players so it must get it right.
I agree that video card manufacturers may not have enough incentive to make it perfect. Unless it's easy to fix, like do a minor tuning to clock generator, then there is a chance.

Anand wrote in Sandy Bridge review that "Intel has committed to addressing the problem in the next major platform revision, which unfortunately seems to be Ivy Bridge in 2012."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4083/t...-2100-tested/7
However, he also claims that "Currently AMD's Radeon HD 5000 and 6000 series GPUs correctly output a 23.976Hz refresh rate if requested".

So, precision is still questionable. I have AMD HD6850 and I personally think that even if one frame stutters once in 7 minutes it is unnoticeable, but opinions may differ.
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post #39 of 1286 Old 05-08-2011, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboy714 View Post

None of them do it perfect. And seamless switching is also a big issue. I guess xbmc can do it pretty well.

Are you saying that the AMD Fusion E-350 (Zacate) hardware/firmware can do it fine, but it's the application software (ie XBMC) that struggles to detect the source framerate, and output the image at the framerate of the source?

From what i've read in the Zacate thread, this cpu/gpu is 100% at outputting the correct framerate. micksh's quote suggests that Anand agrees.
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post #40 of 1286 Old 05-08-2011, 11:03 PM
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I have to say that ATI is consistently close to the real 23.976 Hz refresh rate required by the videophiles. Personally, I always tend to watch videos with the default monitor refresh rate of 60 Hz, so it doesn't bother me too much. That said, I can't speak for others. Since a lot of AV enthusiasts here want exact 23.976 Hz, it is the responsibility of the GPU vendors to provide that or risk having that as a negative aspect.

Here are some screenshots I grabbed while playing Wall-E using the 6450 and 23 Hz CCC setting. Only in one of the shots do I see 23.977 Hz. The rest are all between 23.976 and 23.977 Hz:

















With the ATI card, the maximum deviation around the expected 23.976 Hz refresh rate during the middle of playback was only +- 0.001 Hz. There are other places where the ATI card is not up to the mark (say, high frame rate 1080p H264), but 23.976 Hz is something they have got correct, so let us give them the credit

Ganesh T S
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post #41 of 1286 Old 05-08-2011, 11:41 PM
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It's interesting how they measure frame rate so precise in MPC-HC.

As a software developer I know that common way to measure time with microsecond precision is to use API that is bound to CPU clock. Either direct reading of CPU registers or some Microsoft specific API. But CPU clock is not 100% stable, you can even see that even in some monitoring software (Turbo boost and power management are taken into account). System quartz-based clock has 10 millisecond granularity which is not enough to calculate refresh rate with 0.001 Hz precision in real time.
The error from relying on CPU time can be as big as 2-4 minutes per 24 hours run.

With that said I trust that refresh rates on PC may not perfectly match 23.976 Hz in different cases with different video cards.
However, it must be so subtle so only very careful people notice that. In my case I probably either blink or there is some fast-paced action happens when one frame stutters, so I don't notice it. At least with my AMD HD6850.
I'm not going to set up a freaking timer and be scrutinizing TV when stutter is supposed to happen every few minutes.

I played with 23Hz a bit, it worked good enough to me, and then I switched HTPC permanently to 60Hz. Because 23-24Hz are too slow for desktop and I didn't like "automated" refresh rate switching solutions.
I know 60Hz sucks, slow camera pan motions, etc, but it happens so rarely. Mostly I don't care.

Besides, to my shame, I can't find how to select 23Hz in new AMD drivers so I can't measure. I haven't looked at MPC-HC stats when I had 23Hz set up.
I could do 23Hz in Catalyst 10.10, but how to do it with new interface in 11.2? 24Hz is obviously not it.
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post #42 of 1286 Old 05-08-2011, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micksh View Post

It's interesting how they measure frame rate so precise in MPC-HC.

As a software developer I know that common way to measure time with microsecond precision is to use API that is bound to CPU clock. Either direct reading of CPU registers or some Microsoft specific API. But CPU clock is not 100% stable, you can even see that even in some monitoring software (Turbo boost and power management are taken into account). System quartz-based clock has 10 millisecond granularity which is not enough to calculate refresh rate with 0.001 Hz precision in real time.
The error from relying on CPU time can be as big as 2-4 minutes per 24 hours run.

There was an interesting thread where I believe madshi (author of madVR) claimed that his way of measuring the refresh rate stats was quite accurate (much more precision than 0.001 Hz). I think babgvant ran some tests with the MPC-HC stats and madVR stats and actually didn't find much difference between what was reported by the two tools.

Quote:


Besides, to my shame, I can't find how to select 23Hz in new AMD drivers so I can't measure. I haven't looked at MPC-HC stats when I had 23Hz set up.
I could do 23Hz in Catalyst 10.10, but how to do it with new interface in 11.2? 24Hz is obviously not it.

I was flummoxed for some time too (I was able to do it quite easily when I was testing out a 5570), but finally figured out that disabling 'Enable GPU Scaling' and 'Enable ITC Postprocessing' enabled 23 Hz in the refresh rate setting.

Ganesh T S
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post #43 of 1286 Old 05-09-2011, 01:17 AM
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I've had accurate 23.976 on my HTPC using an HD3870 for years. Its rock solid in both TMT and MPC HC.

I have some small issues with 50Hz in Live TV in MC however I can usually get it to lock down if I trigger the camera button in powerstrip a few times.

This is currently feeding VGA 1368x768 and 1080p (to a panasonic plasma however I did use the same machine to feed 23.976 and 50Hz to a JVC HD1 over hdmi with even less trouble than the plasma.

Things in my experience that screw up good playback are :

Itunes , I don't know why I just know from experience that it introduces stuttering , probably because some updating componenet is trying to phone home with ridiculous permissions even though updates are supposedly off.

Adobe updates ( for anything) similar problems to itunes for similar reasons.

The java updater ...make sure its behaving too.

Reclock has always been pretty useful in my experience even if its just to help confirm you have a lock on 23.976.

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post #44 of 1286 Old 05-09-2011, 02:30 AM
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I think another issue in this is what you're accustomed to watching.

I grew up in Europe, with 50Hz TV, 2:2 pulldown and 4% speed-up. We never really had 3:2 sources until imported Region 1 DVDs and then Blu-rays arrived. As a result we're really not used to 3:2 and I find it really difficult to watch content with 3:2 cadence. On the other hand I've never really been that conscious of the 4% PAL speed-up (apart from when I went to the US and heard theme tunes at their normal speed!) - yet I know some producers think it totally messes up comedy timing. (Both ways - as 25fps UK shows are sometimes slowed down to 24fps for the US market these days)

I suspect if you grew up in the US, where 3:2 pulldown and no speed-up are the norm, you may not notice the 3:2 as objectionable, but the speed-up may be really annoying.

When I bought my first HDTV it was a 50/60Hz (aka 50/59.94Hz) only model, which was fine for watching UK HD TV at 1080/50i. However when we got our PS3 and started to watch 1080p Blu-rays we had to watch them at 60Hz/59.94Hz with 3:2 pull-down, both my partner and I realised we couldn't cope with the 3:2. We ended up reverting to DVDs. Even the opening 20th Century Fox animation was horrific for us. Within 6 months we'd replaced our HDTV with a 24p True Cinema compatible version (which I think must refresh at 2:2 48Hz - but being LCD with a constant backlight means there is no large area flicker, unlike plasma or CRT)

I now work hard to get my HTPCs to run as close to 23.976Hz as I can. I can and do spot 24/23.976Hz repeated frames every 40" or so, so I've done my best to get as close to 23.976Hz as possible. However an occasional repeated frame is infinitely preferable to permanent 3:2 - well at least for this European who never grew up with it!
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post #45 of 1286 Old 05-09-2011, 02:54 AM
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I get 23.9765xxx out of my NVIDIA card, which is only 0.0005 off the target 23.9760 - but this is not a default mode, i did some tweaking to achieve this with a custom resolution.

The measurement is from madVRs OSD, and while bitstreaming audio, i haven't noticed any frame drops - madVR estimates one every 40 something minutes, but i can't say i have noticed any.

Like others pointed out, you cannot be sure how accurate that refresh rate estimation is, but just from the other stats (dropped frames) its alot better then the default 23.972 you get out of the default 24p resolution, and close enough not to see any drops on my setup.

If you're not bitstreaming audio, and rather decoding to PCM, you can always use ReClock, and get super smooth playback without any drops at whatever rate the 24p mode gives you. Of course even when bitstreamign you can instruct ReClock to rather give you perfectly smooth video and eventually drop one audio frame, which might give you an audio glitch rather then a video glitch, if thats more preferable for you.
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post #46 of 1286 Old 05-09-2011, 09:04 AM
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Hi

are there any test which proves that 50hz and 59.94hz are any more perfect? just a thought.
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post #47 of 1286 Old 05-09-2011, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post
There are other places where the ATI card is not up to the mark (say, high frame rate 1080p H264), but 23.976 Hz is something they have got correct, so let us give them the credit
There must be variance b/w ATI cards. I've never been able to get it perfect w/ my 5550 (23.978 if memory serves), and a AMD GPU I'm testing now is the worst I've every seen (it's all over the place).
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post #48 of 1286 Old 05-09-2011, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post
I have to say that ATI is consistently close to the real 23.976 Hz refresh rate required by the videophiles.
Exactly. My ATi 5670 card's results look precisely like this for every movie I play when I match desktop refresh to video framerate. It is the same for material that happens to be at exactly 24.000 too and I match that with a 24.000 (24Hz) desktop refresh.
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post #49 of 1286 Old 05-09-2011, 09:24 PM
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For Nvidia, using the current beta drivers, the 23Hz pre-defined setting results in a 23.9769 or 23.977 in madVR/MPC-HC. This results in a repeated frame every 18minues or so.

You can get almost perfect sync using a custom res defn based on 23Hz which results in a dropped frame every day or so
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post #50 of 1286 Old 05-09-2011, 10:57 PM
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The exact refresh rate you get doesn't only depend on your card, its also about interaction with your AVR and TV - i have had numerous people report that when they connect straight to the TV, its usually much better then if they connect to an AVR.
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post #51 of 1286 Old 05-10-2011, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

The exact refresh rate you get doesn't only depend on your card, its also about interaction with your AVR and TV - i have had numerous people report that when they connect straight to the TV, its usually much better then if they connect to an AVR.

Seems broken/wrong that the GPU would do that... any ideas (cable length, etc.) on what could cause that?
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post #52 of 1286 Old 05-10-2011, 09:20 AM
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to enable 23hz in ati catalyst you have to apply 1080p24 support in the hdtv setting page. 23 then pops up!

i cannot stand watching 24p stuff at 50/60hz. but agree the desktop looks dreadful if left at 24. more importantly as mine is a htpc only menus in media center look bad too
i use aut refresh changes in madvr and autofrequancy and even displaychanger to load TMT at the corect rate
also use reclock to get the final bit of stutter out and slow down PAL

this seems complicated but essential for proper playback on a pc untill someone comes up with and all in one player that will do all the above
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post #53 of 1286 Old 05-10-2011, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

i have had numerous people report that when they connect straight to the TV, its usually much better then if they connect to an AVR.

I even thought to split streams - direct HDMI connection to TV for video and S/PDIF connection to AVR for sound. Only this way I could use 50, 60 Hz refresh rates without troubles. Don't want to loose HD sound though...

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post #54 of 1286 Old 05-10-2011, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

The exact refresh rate you get doesn't only depend on your card, its also about interaction with your AVR and TV - i have had numerous people report that when they connect straight to the TV, its usually much better then if they connect to an AVR.

That's been my experience as well. Direct connect between player and output device is the best. There will be differences between different display devices as well.

When I had my htpc outputing via hdmi to a Denon AVR to a 4in/2out hdmi switch, I had many troubles.
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post #55 of 1286 Old 05-10-2011, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

I think another issue in this is what you're accustomed to watching.

I grew up in Europe, with 50Hz TV, 2:2 pulldown and 4% speed-up. We never really had 3:2 sources until imported Region 1 DVDs and then Blu-rays arrived. As a result we're really not used to 3:2 and I find it really difficult to watch content with 3:2 cadence. On the other hand I've never really been that conscious of the 4% PAL speed-up (apart from when I went to the US and heard theme tunes at their normal speed!) - yet I know some producers think it totally messes up comedy timing. (Both ways - as 25fps UK shows are sometimes slowed down to 24fps for the US market these days)

I suspect if you grew up in the US, where 3:2 pulldown and no speed-up are the norm, you may not notice the 3:2 as objectionable, but the speed-up may be really annoying.

When I bought my first HDTV it was a 50/60Hz (aka 50/59.94Hz) only model, which was fine for watching UK HD TV at 1080/50i. However when we got our PS3 and started to watch 1080p Blu-rays we had to watch them at 60Hz/59.94Hz with 3:2 pull-down, both my partner and I realised we couldn't cope with the 3:2. We ended up reverting to DVDs. Even the opening 20th Century Fox animation was horrific for us. Within 6 months we'd replaced our HDTV with a 24p True Cinema compatible version (which I think must refresh at 2:2 48Hz - but being LCD with a constant backlight means there is no large area flicker, unlike plasma or CRT)

I now work hard to get my HTPCs to run as close to 23.976Hz as I can. I can and do spot 24/23.976Hz repeated frames every 40" or so, so I've done my best to get as close to 23.976Hz as possible. However an occasional repeated frame is infinitely preferable to permanent 3:2 - well at least for this European who never grew up with it!

+1.

For years I was blissfully unaware of "PAL speed up" (sadly no longer) but 3:2 pulldown for BD or (worse?) BD at 50 is terrible. Compared to either, Intel's decimal point problem is minor BUT still noticeable to me. Definitely worst of the "three" in this respect but in other areas they do very well these days. SD (true) deinterlacing is still the worst of the bunch from my tests despite significant improvements over generations.

Good to see you're still around seals .

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post #56 of 1286 Old 05-13-2011, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

I get 23.9765xxx out of my NVIDIA card, which is only 0.0005 off the target 23.9760 - but this is not a default mode, i did some tweaking to achieve this with a custom resolution.

The measurement is from madVRs OSD, and while bitstreaming audio, i haven't noticed any frame drops - madVR estimates one every 40 something minutes, but i can't say i have noticed any.

Like others pointed out, you cannot be sure how accurate that refresh rate estimation is, but just from the other stats (dropped frames) its alot better then the default 23.972 you get out of the default 24p resolution, and close enough not to see any drops on my setup.

If you're not bitstreaming audio, and rather decoding to PCM, you can always use ReClock, and get super smooth playback without any drops at whatever rate the 24p mode gives you. Of course even when bitstreamign you can instruct ReClock to rather give you perfectly smooth video and eventually drop one audio frame, which might give you an audio glitch rather then a video glitch, if thats more preferable for you.

Nev I'm curious how you get near perfect 23.976, especially since we use the same software and close gpu. You have the gtx 430 right? I have a couple projects going but I'm using a gtx 460 and trying to setup my perfect player inside mpchc. I'm using your filters and cuvid,madvr, and reclock. I'm also messing around with autofrequency and just tweaking my NVIDIA custom settings. I've been able to touch 23.976 a few times but I average out at 23.978. It sounds like you have it dialed for the most part, care to share your settings? Do you use autofrequency? What settings do you use in reclock and what about timings for your custom res's?

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post #57 of 1286 Old 05-13-2011, 01:40 AM
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I do not use any automatic frequency changers, i have a bunch of shortcuts on my desktop to switch between 24p, 50p and 60p.

My 24p resolution is pretty standard, just created a resolution for 24Hz, switched to manual timings, and changed the refresh rate to 23.978 (yes .978 - that gives me the closest output to 23.976), leaving everything else default. This worked fine for me, of course this highly depends on your AVR and your TV, so YMMV.

If your rate is too high, try to reduce it slightly, if its too low, increase it. You can additionally try to tweak the "total vertical pixels" number, but change those one point at a time, because it may have a significant effect.

I have a GTS450, btw.
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post #58 of 1286 Old 05-13-2011, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

I do not use any automatic frequency changers, i have a bunch of shortcuts on my desktop to switch between 24p, 50p and 60p.

My 24p resolution is pretty standard, just created a resolution for 24Hz, switched to manual timings, and changed the refresh rate to 23.978 (yes .978 - that gives me the closest output to 23.976), leaving everything else default. This worked fine for me, of course this highly depends on your AVR and your TV, so YMMV.

If your rate is too high, try to reduce it slightly, if its too low, increase it. You can additionally try to tweak the "total vertical pixels" number, but change those one point at a time, because it may have a significant effect.

I have a GTS450, btw.

Yeah that's what I've been doing, setting my timings to 23.978 on a 23hz res.

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post #59 of 1286 Old 05-13-2011, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

Yeah that's what I've been doing, setting my timings to 23.978 on a 23hz res.

Note he said he did it on a 24hz res.... maybe that's key?

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post #60 of 1286 Old 05-13-2011, 02:11 PM
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Note he said he did it on a 24hz res.... maybe that's key?

Ahhaa, thank-you.

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