Originally Posted by assassin
Which are appropriate buttons to press if you are noticing something strange or abnormal on the screen. If not then why check?
I was talking about the dismissive implication that you wouldn't be noticing these things without hitting Ctrl+J (eg here
I am watching the new "Marley" documentary right now the on-screen reading is going between 23.975 and 23.978 with my Intel iGPU. I don't notice anything abnormal and am enjoying the film (which looks fantastic btw).
That's great, and I'm glad you're happy with your solution. I know there are things I've seen that I wish I could "unsee" and just be happy. I've learned in my experience in this hobby (HT in general) that it's not a bad thing to be unaware of "problems", but that doesn't mean they aren't there, or diminish them any.
RBE is a good example, I don't see it (or at least I see it so rarely that it doesn't bother me), but I know there are others who are driven literally into pain by it. The fact that I, or even that the vast, vast majority of people don't see it doesn't diminish the relevance for that those that are physically affected by it.
I understand the annoyance when those of us who don't notice the issue bring it up as "not relevant" (let's also be clear that I have never stated that the problem doesn't exist for some).
That's the thing, you're not the final arbiter of relevance.
But please also understand our point as well when those of use who don't notice the issue are called "ignorant" for not noticing what evidently drives you absolutely insane.
I'm not calling anyone ignorant, and I agree with the assertion/POV that noobs need not go looking for it, but the constant echo of "We don't see it, it's not relevant" anytime anyone does bring up the issue is... well tiring.
Originally Posted by babgvant
There are also apps that do a decent job w/ refresh rate switching (JMC for e.g.), but real native output isn't going to happen on the HTPC.
The problem is these apps just aren't integrated. If/when I switch from using SageTV and it's extenders as my solution, I don't want to go to a solution where I have to jump back and forth between applications (which IMO is harder to automate that switching devices) to get the functionality I want. We're veering OT, but JRMC is just too far away from my needs to be used for TV, and MPC-HC just isn't going to cut it for integration to have MB or MM switch to it for playback from WMC.
That said, I'm not sure it really matters; for most users the HTPC will have the strongest VP (or at least matching) of any device in the playback chain.
Frankly I don't care about "most users", I care about my "needs". I've got two devices that have better video proessing than a PC, and I haven't even got a Radiance (yet?). As much as I like to help folks and answer questions, I'm not in this hobby for some theoretical alternative to mass-market products that an "average person" would be happy with, I'm in it for my own desires. And frankly the last few years have made me appreciate the value of Kaleidscape more, though not quite enough to push me to get one. Though if they were maybe a quarter the price I would be tempted/likely to jump.
Intel's GPUs (SNB+) use an excellent combination of scaling algorithms, and madVR provides a degree of flexibility and capability for HD4000 or dGPU users unmatched in the CE world (at least at a reasonable price point).
Too bad MadVR doesn't work in much.
Might be worth a look at the EDID. I am testing a very similar setup right now and it works great (qualified in the context of this thread of course
I did, all the resolutions I expected to see were there, as I would expect since my HD300 autodetected everything.
I will remain optimistic. We've come a long way w/ HTPC.
Honestly, I just don't see it. IMO the pinacle of the HTPC was probably right before Blu-ray and HD DVD came out. We had great software with high levels of HT integration/automation capabilities like Theatertek, and it could play any movie you would buy, with full functionality (menus), ripped or right off the disc. Of course you could do the same in WMC, or SageTV, or just about anything. WMC supported just about everything TV wise (though CableCard was still not quite here yet), but so did SageTV and some other options. That was probably the time I was happiest with my HTPC setup.
As much as I love HD, it's really thrown a wrench in everything. We're stuck with with Blu-ray software from companies in a race to see who can make the worst software and add the most useless and annoying features, DVR software has all but dried up. Cable Card opened some new options but clobbered usability and compatibility, as has Blu-ray. And to top it all off, nothing really changed in the overall playback "quality" area since my HTPC with a 6800GT. We've still got video level problems, drivers still constantly break and unbreak stuff. HDMI/HDCP/EDID handshaking makes for issues like my i7/AVM50V disaster. But then again I got into things early, and I never really found hooking a PC up via component or VGA to a projector difficult. That and I've never been one to want to use "PC" functionality on my TV anyway so that reduced some of my issues.
Given your preferences and existing HW, a CE device is probably a better fit. Unfortunately, the HD300 is EOL and SageTV is dead. Those of us still using it will need to start planning exit strategies pretty soon.
Which is why I'm on the Echo beta. Worst case I guess I can use the Echo on my auxiliary TVs, and my Xbox 360 in the HT (where it already is) for TV, and shift to a Dune or something for media (ie Blu-ray/DVD rips).
I like bling, it also helps the members of my family who cannot yet read.
Bling is nice, but it's way at the bottom of my feature list.
Originally Posted by assassin
No, its not "willfull ignorance". And how is this "stifling discussion"? Because I, and others, don't agree with your viewpoint?
Seeing issues with frame drops isn't an opinion or a "viewpoint" it's an observation/fact and not something you can disagree with anymore than you can disagree with "Blu-ray discs are round".
Frankly Its a waste of time for some to start their movie and immediately push ctrl+j repeatedly despite not seeing any abnormalities, buying numerous graphic cards to try to improve 23.976 from the onset of building a HTPC, trying numerous programs, killing HD audio bitstreaming in the process, etc because someone on a forum tells me that it I should see this because it absolutely does exist for all or most and that by not seeing it I am somehow "ignorant" to it all. Give me a break.
The fact remains that for SOME HTPC users will use their HTPC and not need to worry about these issues. Others won't be satisfied until the 23.976 is locked in with 100% accuracy even if the display reads that a drop won't occur for 5 hours during a 2 hour movie.
See here's what bugs me, 23.976 is irrelevant, or it should be. Displays can lock on to anything close, video processors as well, as to standalone devices. I have no idea what exact frame rate my HD300 outputs for film, it could be 24.123Hz for all I know, but it doesn't matter because it syncs the audio and video clocks automatically (without dropping audio or video frames), my AVM50V locks on as well, and so does my Planar 8150, so regardless of what the exact output frequency of my HD300 is, everything in the chain locks on and plays happy without any dropped frames or anything.
Then you go to the PC world where there are two separate, disconnected clocks, one for audio, and one for video, and we're left to the mercy of random chance or something as to whether they'll happen to play nice together, leading us to resort to bandaids like reclock (which drops audio frames or resamples the audio to adjust for the discrepancy between audio and video clocks), or to fiddle with custom resolutions/timings trying to force the video clock to match the audio clock, or to just live with it and hope they're close enough on this build, this combination of hardware/software, this time of the celestical cycle that the discrepancy in clocks isn't big enough to cause noticeable issues.
Something so easy in a "consumer electronic device" environment is effectively impossible in the PC world due to the hardware/software architecture that even after a decade or more really hasn't changed to address the issue. And frankly I don't know why it would give the microscopy of the HTPC market.
Originally Posted by Sammy2
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to observe it does it make any noise?
There are people there to hear it no matter how much you wish there weren't.