Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 1286 Old 06-13-2013, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lagittaja View Post

All I really need is 23.976p, 24p, 25p and 50p. And I've got that through modifying my display refresh rate (multiples of 23.976/24/25 + 50)

 

^ Interesting. Since this is the 24p thread, I don't want really wanna sidetrack onto other formats. (That was not my intent above.) But I'm surprised you haven't run across any "native" 29.97/59.94 material. There's certainly alot of it floating around here in the US. smile.gif


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post #1262 of 1286 Old 06-13-2013, 02:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I agree with the general thrust of your comment above cybr. But I think you may be pickin a fight where none really exists.

The simple fact is that if you want access to the widest range of content, then there are multiple standards and framerates to contend with. The specs for Blu-ray video allow for a variety of resolutions and framerates including 1920x1080 resolution video at 23.976p, 24p, 25i, and 29.97i frames/sec (see page 18 in the following link).

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Downloadablefile/BD-ROM-AV-WhitePaper_110712.pdf

The fractional framerates of 23.976p and 29.97i are a remnant of the old NTSC system that really should have been phased-out by now. But entrenched interests in the US video industry wouldn't permit that, so we're basically now stuck with NTSC for the foreseeable future. (23.976p is now the sole 1080-resolution standard for 3D video on Blu-ray, as shown on page 37 above.)

We live in a global society now though. And I agree that the fractional framerates work perfectly well... as long as you're not trying to view content made in other parts of the world. Then it can potentially become a real headache. And if you live in other parts of the world, and are trying to view content made in the US, then you run into the same issue in reverse, because the fractional framerates aren't easily compatible with your local video system.

And yeah, you can say that if folks in other parts of the world want access to the US market, then they should adopt our funky outdated NTSC system. But that isn't always practical. And folks in other parts of the world (understandably) don't want to be dictated to.

Shedding some more of the NTSC baggage (such as fractional framerates and interlacing) during the analog-to-digital changeover probably wouldn't have solved all the difficulties, but handled properly it might have at least eliminated one of the competing "24p" standards, which could have helped somewhat. (I think even my 10+ year old 1080i CRT can probably handle a 24.00p framerate pulled down to a 30.00i signal. And most TVs like mine are now on the scrap heap.)

Maybe we'll finally get it right with 4K... I have my doubts about that though, because 4K will have to be backward compatible with our current HDTV system,... which is backward compatible with NTSC... (Hopefully you see my point. smile.gif )

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Yeah, eventually we will have the ability to move past the roots of NTSC - especially now that everything is digital. The move from analog to digital would have been a horrific time to do it and I am glad we did not. Now that analog TVs are all but gone we no longer have to worry about FM radio interference and therefor no longer need to drop slightly below 60Hz and 24Hz to fix the problem. I think we can do it with the true 4K when it comes out, after HDMI 2.0 is created. I hope so at least. All new material can be 24/60Hz while the sets also support the older 23.xxx/59xx standard. As long as the sets support both, the media does not have to.
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post #1263 of 1286 Old 06-16-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post


Yeah, eventually we will have the ability to move past the roots of NTSC - especially now that everything is digital. The move from analog to digital would have been a horrific time to do it and I am glad we did not. Now that analog TVs are all but gone we no longer have to worry about FM radio interference and therefor no longer need to drop slightly below 60Hz and 24Hz to fix the problem. I think we can do it with the true 4K when it comes out, after HDMI 2.0 is created. I hope so at least. All new material can be 24/60Hz while the sets also support the older 23.xxx/59xx standard. As long as the sets support both, the media does not have to.

 

You make some good points. I'd probably be ok with a 24/60 system. A 120Hz display would handle both of those with ease. But you know some filmmaker is gonna want some other "oddball" frame rate that doesn't easily fit that scheme (like 48p). So it would be nice to have a system that's flexible enough to accomodate some other rates.

 

23.976p, 24p and 25i/p all essentially compete for the same space though, namely traditional film content. So it would be sort of nice to effectively phase one or two of those rates out, and be able to watch traditional film material at it's native 24 fps rate without any speed-ups, slow-downs, or 3:2 judder... now that we're no longer limited by the frequencies of power generators and radio signals as you point out above.

 

There's alot of native 25i (50-field/sec) PAL/SECAM legacy content that wouldn't easily fit into a 24/60 scheme though. I suspect Benny Hill, AbFab, Upstairs/Downstairs, As Time Goes By, and most other video-based Britcoms are probably 50-fields/sec. And it would be nice to be able to watch those at their native rate as well. So maybe some sort of a hybrid 100/120Hz or 96/100/120Hz system would work better?... Not really sure though.

 

Digital audio is still a bit of a mystery to me btw, so I don't fully understand how digital recordings can be sped-up or slowed-down to 23.976p or 25i/p without some loss in audio quality. If the audio source is analog (ie optical or tape track), then I suspect it is/was fairly easy to compensate by adjusting either the physical speed of the playback/recording device (ie telecine), or the sampling rate when converting to digital formats. If the audio source is digital to begin with though, and captured/recorded at a certain number of samples/sec., then surely it has to be resampled to accomodate the slightly different video frame rates. Maybe the sampling rates are so high on professional audio gear though that the difference is undetectable when sampled down to 48 kHz?


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post #1264 of 1286 Old 06-17-2013, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

There's alot of native 25i (50-field/sec) PAL/SECAM legacy content that wouldn't easily fit into a 24/60 scheme though. I suspect Benny Hill, AbFab, Upstairs/Downstairs, As Time Goes By, and most other video-based Britcoms are probably 50-fields/sec. And it would be nice to be able to watch those at their native rate as well. So maybe some sort of a hybrid 100/120Hz or 96/100/120Hz system would work better?... Not really sure though.
I think its kinda funny how US people always get worried when someone mentions 25/50p content, while the EU TV Models are all designed as hybrid 50/60 or 100/120 devices, and support usually 25i and 50p, in addition to 23.976/24 and 59.940/60. Considering that 25p or 50p is just that, 25.000Hz/50.000Hz, i think we are fine keeping those, and just cleaning up the US NTSC mess. biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Digital audio is still a bit of a mystery to me btw, so I don't fully understand how digital recordings can be sped-up or slowed-down to 23.976p or 25i/p without some loss in audio quality.

Who claimed there is no loss? smile.gif
The real question is if you can hear the loss. Good resamplers do exist, and they do provide really good output.

---
In any case, there is loads of content that uses 23.976 or 59.940 today, and the production houses are not going to re-create the Blu-rays in clean 24.000, so TVs are not going to drop 23.976 support. We can only hope that new content may one day stop using the NTSC rates, but even this i don't see today. Maybe once we move to a higher refresh rate, but they already have 59.940, so the risk is they might use that, even if content goes to 60 fps progressive.
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post #1265 of 1286 Old 06-17-2013, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

I think its kinda funny how US people always get worried when someone mentions 25/50p content, while the EU TV Models are all designed as hybrid 50/60 or 100/120 devices, and support usually 25i and 50p, in addition to 23.976/24 and 59.940/60. Considering that 25p or 50p is just that, 25.000Hz/50.000Hz, i think we are fine keeping those, and just cleaning up the US NTSC mess. biggrin.gif

One benefit of living in a PAL area is that most good sets can handle both PAL and NTSC formats. Here in the US, almost none of the traditional TV sets can handle 50p. Last time I was looking at sets I looked for PAL support and it was pretty much non-existent on the flat panel TV's. Every time I want to watch a PAL program, I do it on my projector because it CAN handle 50p. TV's are high enough volume that they make a special set for the NTSC market that leaves out PAL support. Projectors are lower volume, so they just typically make one for both markets.
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post #1266 of 1286 Old 06-22-2013, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

The real question is if you can hear the loss. Good resamplers do exist, and they do provide really good output.
Let's not forget that the main benefit of using ultra high resolution audio (like for example 24/192) is to provide headroom to allow DSP to be applied (be it before the signal enters the consumer's playback chain, or as part of that playback chain, or both...) without it mucking up the final sound. A resampler will inevitably eat up some of this headroom, should it exist, and, as per definition of the term "headroom", will start to produce audible artifacts where no such headroom is present / no longer is present. With digital room correction technology becoming ever increasingly advanced, DSP in the playback chain is slowly but surely starting to grow popular, even among "audiophiles" these days. Not wanting to steer this too far off topic, I should mention that I own a home theater preamp/processor (Emotiva UMC-200) that features a built-in, 11-band, Parametric EQ. Though it is not as advanced as Dirac Live or TacT Audio RCS, this Parametric EQ has proven very useful to me, and IMO it is definitely much better than Audyssey. Needless to say, I am not such a big fan of audio resamplers, even though I realize the fact there can be audible improvements to be had, on some systems, using upsampling from 48 kHz to 96 or to 192 kHz.
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post #1267 of 1286 Old 07-01-2013, 07:49 PM
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Anybody have a good custom resolution to try that is working for them on the newest Nvidia drivers for a good 23.976?



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post #1268 of 1286 Old 07-13-2013, 12:42 PM
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^ Sorry, I can't help with that cheezit73.

 

I appreciate the elaboration above re audio resampling and international frame rates though. Hopefully my comments didn't digress too much from the main theme of this thread.

 

I do have a couple other questions though, and this seems like the place where people would probably know. Since I don't actually own a 24p capable TV, I was wonderin if most 24p TVs can handle both true 24p and 23.976p via HDMI, or do they only tend to support just the latter 23.976p framerate?

 

And if you're speeding up a 24p video encode to 23.976p (presumably because the TV only supports 23.976p), and resampling its 48 kHz audio track, can you hear the difference?


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post #1269 of 1286 Old 07-13-2013, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I do have a couple other questions though, and this seems like the place where people would probably know. Since I don't actually own a 24p capable TV, I was wonderin if most 24p TVs can handle both true 24p and 23.976p via HDMI, or do they only tend to support just the latter 23.976p framerate?

I'm not aware of any display that supports 23.976 but not 24.

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post #1270 of 1286 Old 08-18-2013, 02:04 AM
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Hello guys, noticed the discussion about the new Haswell chips doing an excelled job @ 23.976 but not sure if that would solve my problem of audio and video slowly going out of sync. I also would like to avoid ReClock as what was suggested to me as I want to do bitstreaming of TrueHD and DTS-MA.

My setup is HTPC -> Denon AVR-4311CI -> LG Plasma TV

Is there any recommended guide showcasing how to setup/debug your HTPC to avoid this "slowly going out of sync" annoyance (specifically something that involves an AVR in between for audio bitstreaming)?

Thanks

Came across this: http://www.missingremote.com/forums/mkv-audio-video-drift-out-sync-during-playback
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post #1271 of 1286 Old 08-18-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by e2g_ View Post

Is there any recommended guide showcasing how to setup/debug your HTPC to avoid this "slowly going out of sync" annoyance (specifically something that involves an AVR in between for audio bitstreaming)?
Reclock or an equivalent is the only fix. LAV Filters is capable of bit-perfect lossless decoding, so there's no reason to limit yourself by decoding in the AVR.
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post #1272 of 1286 Old 08-18-2013, 09:46 AM
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Reclock or an equivalent is the only fix. LAV Filters is capable of bit-perfect lossless decoding, so there's no reason to limit yourself by decoding in the AVR.

I am not sure if I understand this. Also, I want to throw in there that I only experience this problem when I switch my display to 24p via XBMC. Having playback set at 60p with TrueHD/DTS-MA works fine.
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post #1273 of 1286 Old 08-18-2013, 09:47 AM
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I am not sure if I understand this. Also, I want to throw in there that I only experience this problem when I switch my display to 24p via XBMC. Having playback set at 60p with TrueHD/DTS-MA works fine.

He's telling you (I think) to run Windows so you can use Re-clock and other things to fix the issue.
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post #1274 of 1286 Old 10-06-2013, 12:04 PM
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Hi every1. I have a Nvidia Geforce GTX 780, running at 23 Hz (Playing with PowerDVD 11 only). I noticed a frame drop in "Life of Pi" after 2 hours, at the movie end. What can I do to avoid this? Wich sample rate - or custom sample rate - I can use in order do avoid these frames skips? Thank you! 

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post #1275 of 1286 Old 10-06-2013, 01:20 PM
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You might spend a few minutes perusing this thread, since the info you are asking for is probably in here already. Generally speaking, since you are running Windows you will need to use re-clock or something similar to change the playback speed from 23.976xxx to 24.000 since your video card, like all the other ones, is not capable of perfect 23.976 playback.
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post #1276 of 1286 Old 10-07-2013, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

You might spend a few minutes perusing this thread, since the info you are asking for is probably in here already. Generally speaking, since you are running Windows you will need to use re-clock or something similar to change the playback speed from 23.976xxx to 24.000 since your video card, like all the other ones, is not capable of perfect 23.976 playback.

 

Thank you for your reply. I already use reclock (on Windows 7 64), and believe me, it was a bad experience. I never get a normal playback. Sound pops and frame drops always. Then I only changed the display rate to 23 Hz without reclock and everything goes fine. I don't know if nvidia fixed this issue by running movies at 23 Hz. Maybe was a malfunction on my BD drive. I must watch this movie again. Oh, I forget to say that I'm watching on 3D. I tryed to create a custom resolution, but 3D settings goes crazy! Maybe I must live with it? Do I have a solution, usying 3D?  

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post #1277 of 1286 Old 10-07-2013, 10:37 AM
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I never got reclock working well with PowerDVD or the other commercial players either, only directshow players like MPC-HC. (though I now use JRiver with its own VideoClock feature)
I'm not sure there's much you can do other than changing players if reclock is not working for you.
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post #1278 of 1286 Old 10-07-2013, 04:08 PM
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post #1279 of 1286 Old 10-07-2013, 07:23 PM
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Feel the difference: driver vs it's hardware :)

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1477460/theory-about-intels-hdmi-quantization-range-setting-full-0-255/60#post_23812454

 

I don't understand. I found this option (0 - 255) only in Nvidia Control Panel. By changing to it (0 - 255) maybe I can end with my issues? Is that it?

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post #1280 of 1286 Old 10-09-2013, 03:16 PM
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Now I see that if I change my Ivy Bridge for a Haswell, maybe I can solve my issues. After 2 hours there is a frame drop in any video. But I can't understand something yet, maybe for disinformation: If I change my CPU for a Haswell, but keeping my Geforce GTX 780, I'll still have frame drops or it is something without fix? Because I can't create a custom resolution for 3D video. Neither use reclock with powerdvd. So, this is a issue with nvidia cards or with the processor, in this case, a Ivy bridge? If you read this article, you'll see that no VGA is used: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7007/intels-haswell-an-htpc-perspective/10 . So there is no way to solve this?

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post #1281 of 1286 Old 10-09-2013, 11:52 PM
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... keeping my Geforce GTX 780 ...

 

You out video by one GPU. Ask youself, how fixes done in second, _other_ GPU may solve your problem?

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post #1282 of 1286 Old 05-10-2014, 10:47 AM
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I've just set up an Intel NUC D34010WYK (Haswell Core i3), with an Onkyo 727 receiver and Sony KDL-46W905A.

 

From what I understand this Haswell version is supposed to have no problems doing 23.976, but when I change my refresh rate to 23Hz (which is supposedly actually 23.976) on Windows and play a movie (either through MPC-HC or MediaPortal/XBMC) on Windows 8.1 the audio goes out of sync (the audio precedes the video by a few msecs).

 

What could be the problem? And is there a way to check whether all the refresh rates the NUC is allowing my to choose actually work on my hardware? 

 

Edit: Here's the output of ModInfo for my receiver: http://pastebin.com/jnP1STDk

 

Thanks!

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post #1283 of 1286 Old 05-12-2014, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mikevm View Post

I've just set up an Intel NUC D34010WYK (Haswell Core i3), with an Onkyo 727 receiver and Sony KDL-46W905A.

From what I understand this Haswell version is supposed to have no problems doing 23.976, but when I change my refresh rate to 23Hz (which is supposedly actually 23.976) on Windows and play a movie (either through MPC-HC or MediaPortal/XBMC) on Windows 8.1 the audio goes out of sync (the audio precedes the video by a few msecs).

What could be the problem? And is there a way to check whether all the refresh rates the NUC is allowing my to choose actually work on my hardware? 

Edit: Here's the output of ModInfo for my receiver: http://pastebin.com/jnP1STDk

Thanks!

The best way is to download/install madVR and configure MPC-HC to use it. After starting playback press Control+J to enable madVR's stats display. It will tell you what the refresh rate really is.

Make sure you have the latest FW on the Onkyo AVR, earlier generations had an issue where they would convert 23.976->24 that was fixed in a FW release.

Also, there should be a A/V sync setting in the HDMI settings on the AVR. If it's not enabled, enable it. If it is enabled try disabling it to see if that has any affect.

Do you have any VPP features enabled on the display? This can cause the issue you're describing. If the sync issue is constant, and you want to keep the VPP the AVR should have a setting that allows you to delay audio by a static value.
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post #1284 of 1286 Old 05-12-2014, 04:13 AM
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The best way is to download/install madVR and configure MPC-HC to use it. After starting playback press Control+J to enable madVR's stats display. It will tell you what the refresh rate really is.

Make sure you have the latest FW on the Onkyo AVR, earlier generations had an issue where they would convert 23.976->24 that was fixed in a FW release.

Also, there should be a A/V sync setting in the HDMI settings on the AVR. If it's not enabled, enable it. If it is enabled try disabling it to see if that has any affect.

Do you have any VPP features enabled on the display? This can cause the issue you're describing. If the sync issue is constant, and you want to keep the VPP the AVR should have a setting that allows you to delay audio by a static value.

 

Thank you very much!

 

I tried madVR and it does appear that my refresh rate is being changed properly.

 

The problem seems to be with my Sony TV. There is a "Scene Select" feature which lets you pick among various modes: Auto, Auto (24p), General, Cinema, ..., Photo, Games, Graphics.

I had General selected as it seems to show the best PQ (it seems identical to Photo) and I also fiddled with it to make it look the way I like. The Auto (24p) mode is just like Auto, except when it detects 23.976Hz/24Hz and then switches to Cinema mode. When I use Auto (24p) and change refresh rates, it does appear to switch to Cinema automatically!

I don't like Cinema mode though: a) it still lags b) it changes the color temp to "Warm 2" which seems to make everything yellower (why in god's holy name would you want this???) c) I think it also makes the image a little less crisp.

 

Anyway, it appears that the lag is fixed when I choose either Games or Graphics modes. In fact, even the mouse appears to move faster now at my default 50Hz refresh rate (I couldn't figure out why it was so slow when I set up the HTPC).

 

Looks like I have to spend the next couple of days trying to get to know this TV better. The on-screen manual has rather vague explanation of what each of these modes does.

I think it goes beyond just the Picture settings. I tried to find out a particular Picture setting that reduces the lag (by turning each one on/off and seeing if it affects the speed of the mouse), but it nothing helps... maybe the Games/Graphics mode have something additional in them and they aren't only disabling the various TV features in the Pictures settings screen :-/.

 

P.S. Any idea why 23.976Hz would cause this lag on the TV and not 50Hz?

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post #1285 of 1286 Old 05-12-2014, 05:00 AM
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"Warm 2" on Sony TVs is the appropriate color temperature for a white point of 6500K, btw, which is what you are supposed to watch movies at.

Its also quite normal for a TV to have a bit of "lag", any video player typically has an option to compensate for this. I need around 140ms for my Sony TV.
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post #1286 of 1286 Old 07-08-2014, 05:58 PM
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I have 2 780's as my gpus, via nvidia. Currently I watch ripped blurays on a 2560x1440p 60hz monitor. How would I go about getting 23.976 refresh rate?

Also I am getting a HDTV soon, a vizio e 50" smart tv. Any opinions on what I should do?
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