Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Let's set this all straight and start to re-educate people. I am probably the loudest critic of the whole "24p" bug.

Intel continues to get slammed by most of you yet actually can do 24p as well as any of the others.

As tested by AVS users (and others) the big three companies output the following when trying to do correct 23.976...

ATI: 23.978 (+0.002)
There are numerous reports of ATI being inconsistent at best with correct 24p playback.
http://www.google.com/search?q=ati%2023.978&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=593&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=XsL&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&biw=1366&bih=593&source=hp&q=site:avsforum.com+ati+23.978&aq=f&aqi=&aql=f&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=44b3839bd44fe786

NVidia: 23.972 (-0.004)
One example: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=480
UPDATE: NVidia with recent drivers and custom resolution seems to be more consistently getting 23.976 +/-0.002 which is about as good as you can get out of the box.

Intel with UAC off: 23.973 (-0.003)
Intel with UAC on: 24.000 (+0.024)


So for those of you with the opinion that Intel is the only one that can't get this correct I would think again.

I would also question what those of you who bought an ATI or NVidia card to "fix" the Intel problem are really seeing/experiencing in regards to the "24p bug".

Looking forward to your comments/backlash/criticism/anger/confusion/arguments.


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post #2 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 06:51 AM
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Well I have an ATI card, but I didn't buy it because of the 24p playback bug. I bought it because the integrated graphics of the intel i3 was not cooperating with my system at the time. I have considered trying it again since all the updates have come out. (SP1, driver updates, etc.)

However, I would really like to know the REAL WORLD effects of these frame rates. In other words, it seems like being off by 2 or 3 or 4 one thousanths of a second would not really affet the picture much. For myself, although I do not look for skipped frames or slight pauses, I never see them when playing back video at either 59.9~ (59hz) or 23.9~ (23hz).

So I am just trying to figure out what everyone else sees . . .
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post #3 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketlaw View Post

Well I have an ATI card, but I didn't buy it because of the 24p playback bug. I bought it because the integrated graphics of the intel i3 was not cooperating with my system at the time. I have considered trying it again since all the updates have come out. (SP1, driver updates, etc.)

However, I would really like to know the REAL WORLD effects of these frame rates. In other words, it seems like being off by 2 or 3 or 4 one thousanths of a second would not really affet the picture much. For myself, although I do not look for skipped frames or slight pauses, I never see them when playing back video at either 59.9~ (59hz) or 23.9~ (23hz).

So I am just trying to figure out what everyone else sees . . .

I'd be interested to see what differences you notice, if any, if you tried the intel graphics again.


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post #4 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 08:28 AM
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Is that "with UAC off" only for Sandy Bridge or does it work with Clarkdale too?

And how does the coordinate with having to have it on to use Shark007 to get HD Audio?

At any rate, I don't even notice a problem with it.

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post #5 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Is that "with UAC off" only for Sandy Bridge or does it work with Clarkdale too?

And how does the coordinate with having to have it on to use Shark007 to get HD Audio?

At any rate, I don't even notice a problem with it.

Edit: Corrected. This seems to only apply to SB.


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post #6 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Yes, it will work with Clarkdale as well.

You sure about this? From what I recall, the UAC off fix only works for Sandy Bridge...
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post #7 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ilovejedd View Post

You sure about this? From what I recall, the UAC off fix only works for Sandy Bridge...

Actually I misread that while researching the information for this thread.

You are correct in that Sandy Bridge appears to be the only platform capable of this.


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post #8 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketlaw View Post

So I am just trying to figure out what everyone else sees . . .

Me too. I've had an ATI card for a while now, tried the whole 59/60 vs 24p thing and never noticed a difference. So I just set it to 60hz and never looked back. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
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post #9 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mslide View Post

Me too. I've had an ATI card for a while now, tried the whole 59/60 vs 24p thing and never noticed a difference. So I just set it to 60hz and never looked back. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

That is not ignorance. This is having enough knowledge to be able to just enjoy what you have.
My eyes are my judge. When I like what I see, I am also content to watch the video/movie in its entirety.

In all my years of PC video playback, I have never once concerned myself with fps data.

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post #10 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark007 View Post

That is not ignorance. This is having enough knowledge to be able to just enjoy what you have.
My eyes are my judge. When I like what I see, I am also content to watch the video/movie in its entirety.

In all my years of PC video playback, I have never once concerned myself with fps data.

Sage advice from Shark007. I just see so many people on here worried about the 24p problem or waiting until Llano/IvyBridge/etc to jump into a HTPC.

And this whole thing is really not an issue.


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post #11 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 12:07 PM
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And would only be an issue if your TV was actually outputting at 24p *and* you have sensitive enough eyes to notice it. Pretty rare combination. Not to say it doesn't drive some people mad, but the vast majority will never see it, even if they do have a true 24p HDTV.

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post #12 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 02:10 PM
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Having once been a diehard audiophile I have since learned that if you aren't aware that a problem exists, don't go looking for it. I don't know what to look for in detecting the "24p bug" and I have no desire to find out what it is I should be seeing. I'm perfectly content watching Blu-Ray rips on my HTPC the way things are. If I knew what the 24p bug looks like it would ruin whatever enjoyment I get out of the media.
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post #13 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 02:29 PM
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What does turning UAC off do? and how do I do it?
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post #14 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanly2 View Post

What does turning UAC off do? and how do I do it?

Start
Control Panel
Action Center
Change User Account Control Settings
Move the slider to the bottom most setting Never Notify
Accept the change


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post #15 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 05:20 PM
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But what does it do for or against me?
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post #16 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 05:55 PM
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UAC prevents somebody (your wife, children etc.)/something (virus) from changing the system accidentally/intentionally. If I were a system integrator, I would never recommend my customers to turn it off (as I can't take responsibility for results). Personally I never turn it off for the same reason.

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post #17 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post
UAC prevents somebody (your wife, children etc.)/something (virus) from changing the system accidentally/intentionally. If I were a system integrator, I would never recommend my customers to turn it off (as I can't take responsibility for results). Personally I never turn it off for the same reason.
Eh. There are a lot of people on here that find it an annoyance and turn it off with no ill effect.


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post #18 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post
UAC prevents somebody (your wife, children etc.)/something (virus) from changing the system accidentally/intentionally. If I were a system integrator, I would never recommend my customers to turn it off (as I can't take responsibility for results). Personally I never turn it off for the same reason.
You seriously leave that thing on on your own pc? I can see for someone you built or whatever, but that annoying thing is the first thing I kill after a reformat.
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post #19 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 07:06 PM
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Is that so annoying? (Vista's UAC is surely annoying.) I tested virus and UAC was pretty effective to protect OS (perhaps those who mention disabling UAC casually have never experienced this). It has been also very good to stop my wife/kids changing the system. Anyway I would always add a comment on possible consequences when mentioning disabling UAC to somebody.

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post #20 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 07:22 PM
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Ok so how does it benefit us to disable it? I haven't disabled it and so far everything seems to work, even movies in mb and live tv and I don't know what everyone is talking about stuff "breaking"?
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post #21 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by hanly2 View Post
Ok so how does it benefit us to disable it? I haven't disabled it and so far everything seems to work, even movies in mb and live tv and I don't know what everyone is talking about stuff "breaking"?
Have you ever noticed stuttering every 42 seconds when you play movies with the desktop resolution set to 24Hz? If no, disabling UAC won't benefit you at all.

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post #22 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hanly2 View Post
Ok so how does it benefit us to disable it? I haven't disabled it and so far everything seems to work, even movies in mb and live tv and I don't know what everyone is talking about stuff "breaking"?
If you don't notice it then don't change it (unless you are the only one using your HTPC and find the UAC extremely annoying which some do - as stated above).

Some users just can't be happy unless everything is "perfect" or "99.99% perfect" even if they don't notice anything wrong. These are mainly the people that constantly post/complain/wait to build/ about the "24p bug".

So for those users trying to achieve perfection even when everything is already perfect requires disabling the UAC to try to get closer to "correct" 24p.

In summary: Its mainly for the perfectionist that thinks he can see the 24p bug and can't/won't be happy until it is "fixed".


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post #23 of 1286 Old 05-06-2011, 11:44 PM
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I have an ATI 5670 card and the 23.976 occasional stutter irritates me. I use TMT3 for Bluray playback and the occasional stutter seems to throw out the sync of TMT3 and then it will begin to stutter a lot. Some times I wish I had just stayed with DVD.

Well I've been considering trying another video card, but if all cards are having this problem I will just save my money for now. Thanks for the info.

Gary.
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post #24 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 12:06 AM
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Intel HD Graphics supports only 24.000 Hz refresh rate (if you don't disable UAC [disabling UAC could cause A/V synch issue]), so if you play a movie of 23.976 fps, you will see an extra frame inserted every

1/(24.000-23.976) =

41.666... seconds. That's the cause of a periodic stuttering (but not everyone can notice it). If a Radeon card supports 23.978 Hz refresh rate, then you will see an extra frame inserted every

1/(23.978-23.976) =

500 seconds = 8 minutes 20 seconds. It's still a periodic stuttering, but it's even harder to notice it (and as a matter of fact everybody thinks it's practically perfect).

If someone feels stuttering is irritating, perhaps the cause is entirely different from the imprecise refresh rate.

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post #25 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 03:09 AM
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For some people, turning UAC off is the cause of a mutitude of problems that I cannot explain.

I run my own (playback) forum and occaissionally a user with weird things going on can correct their problem(s) by removing my software, re-enabling UAC, and re-installing my software. For some reason (and for only some people) which is beyond my understanding, choosing to disable UAC does not allow codecs to register properly or the registry to be manipulated as designed by my settings interface.

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post #26 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 06:04 AM
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UAC turned off can effect other software as well. I normally have it off on my non-HTPC's but when having a lot of trouble installing Logitech web cam software on my wife's computer and I turned UAC back on for her and it installed perfectly. So Shark, your software (or the codecs in general) isn't the only thing that seems to need UAC on to install/run properly.

It's weird. I personally just keep UAC on now on all my Win 7 machines. Frankly once I have everything installed I rarely ever see a UAC notice. It's really not that annoying on you're installed and all set.

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post #27 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grcass View Post

I have an ATI 5670 card and the 23.976 occasional stutter irritates me. I use TMT3 for Bluray playback and the occasional stutter seems to throw out the sync of TMT3 and then it will begin to stutter a lot. Some times I wish I had just stayed with DVD.

Well I've been considering trying another video card, but if all cards are having this problem I will just save my money for now. Thanks for the info.

Gary.

That is a different problem, and I've noticed it when using ATI 5000 series cards with TMT3 or TMT5. In my experience, it doesn't happen if you stay in Aero. Or, you could use reclock to force vsync and it won't happen. If you can get past this problem, ATIs are close enough to 23.976 that I haven't noticed duplicated or dropped frames when watching BDs.

With Clarkdale or Sandy Bridge integrated graphics, I definitely notice the duplicated frame every so often. I don't notice it every time that it happens, but I'll notice it a few times during a typical movie.

Bazinga!

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post #28 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 08:49 AM
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seems like a lot of trouble to go 24p. Why not just stick with 60hz and do 3:2 pulldown inverse telecine. So what pan shots are jerky?
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post #29 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 10:13 AM
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I purchased a Intel Clarksdale when they first came out, thinking 24p would work OK, and could just their Internal graphics. But none of the reviews bother mentioning Intel only output 24hz. So I saw the jerk/stutter within probably 2 minutes of the first thing I played. Then I checked the output output on my DVDO and front PJ, and saw 24hz.

Well, I knew right then it would jerk because I already had wasted lots of time trying to get 23.976 before the Clarksdale, using a Nvidia card at that time. Even though at first there were arguments in the Clarksdale thread about it, I didn't have to look for the stutter, its just there to see.

Sure, it kind of depends what type of motion is going on at the time to really see the jerk clearly, but happened enough (~40 sec) that I wasn't interested in using it. Also, After watching 23.976 I can see the difference between it and 59.94, or in Intel's case 60hz. Plus most blu-ray is encoded 23.976. Maybe screen size matters also.

When SB came out I waited to see if a review would mention 24p and this time of course they did, plus adding that it was a Hardware problem all along. Which is nice since Intel wouldn't admit it with Clarksdale, and time was wasted trying to deal with their useless support. So of course I had no reason to buy a SB for HTPC myself after hearing that. If I had who knows, maybe I wouldn't have noticed a problem since I always turn UAC off when I install windows 7. But I'd have to see it for myself.

The ATI 5450 card I picked up works fine and I don't see any stutter. Apparently its close enough. Clarksdale's 24hz isn't. SB I don't have and never will. Might for another computer but not for playing Blu-ray.

I'm waiting to see how AMD's Llano will work. I really don't care about what numbers are showing regarding 23.976, as long as I don't see that stutter. Plus with a HTPC many other things can cause video jerk. But for me, the Intel Clarksdale was a waste of time.
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post #30 of 1286 Old 05-07-2011, 12:57 PM
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I used all three cards and never was able to get perfect playback. I must have very sensitive eyes, but I saw EVERY frame skip/drop. I could tell the time to within 5 minutes because of the periodic nature of the frame skip. With intel it was every 40 seconds, with ati it was every 7 minutes, with nvidia every minute.

Eventually I just moved to a sagetv extender and now I have no issues.
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