Let's set this straight - No one can do 24p consistently well - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 02:58 PM
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What application is being used to change the frequency close to 23.976?

Is this CCC?

Are there other apps that do this?
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post #62 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 03:10 PM
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The premise of this thread is completely false. What FUD coming from someone who, for some reason, doesn't think that 24p is important. I guess he thinks that you shouldn't think 24p is important either.

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post #63 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

The premise of this thread is completely false. What FUD coming from someone who, for some reason, doesn't think that 24p is important. I guess he thinks that you shouldn't think 24p is important either.

Just a lot of first hand experience. I guess that doesn't count for much in your world.
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post #64 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

The premise of this thread is completely false. What FUD coming from someone who, for some reason, doesn't think that 24p is important. I guess he thinks that you shouldn't think 24p is important either.

I think it will depend on one's playback display and individual tolerance.

I for one hadnt noticed anything until last night when I started playing "Collateral" which is at 23.976 - the stutter was extremely evident.
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post #65 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mondo Rock View Post

I think it will depend on one's playback display and individual tolerance.

I for one hadnt noticed anything until last night when I started playing "Collateral" which is at 23.976 - the stutter was extremely evident.

I agree, some movies its completely or virtually unnoticeable an on others it can get to be annoying at times. Especially slower or older movies, dramas,movies mire likely to have long short scenes with not a lot of cuts in the film. It is nice to be able to correct the issue with some tweaking if you so feel inclined.

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post #66 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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It can be important if you have a 24p TV on some movies.

But for most people they don't even notice it. The fact that so many people have bought NVidia cards to "fix" the problem when it isn't really fixed and then don't come in here cussing up a storm that they were lied to is proof.
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post #67 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

It can be important if you have a 24p TV on some movies.

But for most people they don't even notice it. The fact that so many people have bought NVidia cards to "fix" the problem when it isn't really fixed and then don't come in here cussing up a storm that they were lied to is proof.

I don't think that's true. I think people don't come in this thread cursing is because it is a tad better than Intel 23.976 and they have taken 5 minutes to make a custom resolution or found another way to adjust the problem. I also think people just like other things to tweak with weather its broken or not, or fixable or not.

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post #68 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

I don't think that's true. I think people don't come in this thread cursing is because it is a tad better than Intel 23.976 and they have taken 5 minutes to make a custom resolution or found another way to adjust the problem. I also think people just like other things to tweak with weather its broken or not, or fixable or not.

I also think that the hope by many was that the Clarkdale/Sandy Bridge was billed as the perfect HTPC platform, so people who noticed the issue got annoyed that they would still need to purchase a dGPU in order to get "proper" playback (i.e. the whole purpose of the core is was to get away from needing a dGPU). Not saying whether the problem is real or not, but why I think much of the angst is/was directed at Intel

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post #69 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 04:36 PM
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I also think that the hope by many was that the Clarkdale/Sandy Bridge was billed as the perfect HTPC platform, so people who noticed the issue got annoyed that they would still need to purchase a dGPU in order to get "proper" playback (i.e. the whole purpose of the core is was to get away from needing a dGPU). Not saying whether the problem is real or not, but why I think much of the angst is/was directed at Intel

Bone - Can you explain a little more on this dGPU concept?

Is it hardwarde found on a particular video card or similar? The 5450?
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post #70 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondo Rock View Post
Bone - Can you explain a little more on this dGPU concept?

Is it hardwarde found on a particular video card or similar? The 5450?
By "dGPU" he just means a discrete video card. IE: one that is not built into the motherboard.
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post #71 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mondo Rock View Post
Bone - Can you explain a little more on this dGPU concept?

Is it hardwarde found on a particular video card or similar? The 5450?
dGPU = Discrete GPU

In general if you buy any discrete card from ATI or nVidia, you can get 23.976 Hz refresh rate for your 23.976 fps movies.

With ATI, there is a high chance of it working right out of the box. But, I have seen it lock at 23.978 for some cards, and there is no way to tweak the timing parameters that I know of.

On the other hand, with NVIDIA, the chance of it working right out of the box is a bit difficult. But, you have control over the timing parameters, and it is possible to make the playback frame rate lock at 23.976 and the refresh rate stay at 23.976 Hz most of the time, but drift on either side of that value (and I guess, averaging out over the full playback duration).

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post #72 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post
Just a lot of first hand experience. I guess that doesn't count for much in your world.
First hand experience tells me that 24p is a necessity for me. My Radeon does it perfectly.

Other people can decide for themselves whether it is important to them. I don't care what other people like or don't like. If asked, I would advise everyone to buy displays that are 24p capable and watch 24p material as it was intended. Some people like FI or other things. They have that right.

When you say that "no one can do 24p consistently well" you are spreading bad and misleading information. Why are you spreading misleading information in this way? Truth is that many cards are available that do 24p consistently well, perfectly in fact. Why not just say "be careful which card you buy because some that you think do 24p well really don't." Instead, you are seeking to minimize the 24p issue as if the people that do care about it are wrong to think that way.

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post #73 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post
When you say that "no one can do 24p consistently well" you are spreading bad and misleading information. Why are you spreading misleading information in this way? Truth is that many cards are available that do 24p consistently well, perfectly in fact. Why not just say "be careful which card you buy because some that you think do 24p well really don't." Instead, you are seeking to minimize the 24p issue as if the people that do care about it are wrong to think that way.
I would argue that is exactly what I stated. Six of one, half dozen of another.

Sure some might be able to do it well occasionally. That is an absolutely true statement.

But no one can do it consistently well also. That is also an absolutely true statement.

That was the whole point of this thread. Sorry if you missed that point.

I think the "misleading" information was what was rampant on this site prior to this thread --- that Intel was the only one that got it 100% wrong and everyone else did it 100% perfectly.
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post #74 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 05:44 PM
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Assassin,I think you have the misleading information part of your post correct. Some people thought that Intel was wrong 100% and the other were right 100%. That is false. But I think you are wrong in saying no one can consistently do 23.976. I Have personally spoken to a handful of people that can(there are a couple in this thread)and I know from personal experience that I can consistently do 23.976-23.978.

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post #75 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 05:49 PM
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I think the contention here is the use of the word "consistently" and the context it is being used in, and some ambiguity.

Some people are reading the thread title as "there is no single 24p solution that reliably and consistently delivers proper 23.976Hz refresh rate replay", whereas others are reading it as "there is no vendor that provides universally reliable 23.976Hz refresh rate output on all products in all situations"

I think assassin meant the latter - i.e. nVidia, ATI and Intel all have issues in certain circumstances in delivering 23.976Hz refresh rate output.

What is causing annoyance is that some users DO have reliable 23.976Hz output with their set-ups, and believe assasin is contradicting this.

It's a "way you read it" thing isn't it?
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post #76 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000
I think the contention here is the use of the word "consistently" and the context it is being used in, and some ambiguity.

Some people are reading the thread title as "there is no single 24p solution that reliably and consistently delivers proper 23.976Hz refresh rate replay", whereas others are reading it as "there is no vendor that provides universally reliable 23.976Hz refresh rate output on all products in all situations"

I think assassin meant the latter - i.e. nVidia, ATI and Intel all have issues in certain circumstances in delivering 23.976Hz refresh rate output.

What is causing annoyance is that some users DO have reliable 23.976Hz output with their set-ups, and believe assasin is contradicting this.

It's a "way you read it" thing isn't it?
Agreed.

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post #77 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post
I would argue that is exactly what I stated. Six of one, half dozen of another.

Sure some might be able to do it well occasionally. That is an absolutely true statement.

But no one can do it consistently well also. That is also an absolutely true statement.

That was the whole point of this thread. Sorry if you missed that point.

I think the "misleading" information was what was rampant on this site prior to this thread --- that Intel was the only one that got it 100% wrong and everyone else did it 100% perfectly.
This is not an Intel, ATI or Nvidia issue. If a card or chipset won't do 24p properly, it won't be in my system. Period. I don't care who makes it.

When you say "no one can do 24p consistently well" this is just plain wrong. Every ATI card that I have owned since the time that ATI properly implemented 24p did it consistently well. I cant say what Nvidia does or doesnt do. We know Intel has its issues.

Enthusiasts should seek to raise the bar by demanding simple things like video card makers supporting the few video standards that exist. If you don't think its a big deal, why not just keep quiet. Why go out of your way and minimize the issue and apologize for engineering failures?

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post #78 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy

This is not an Intel, ATI or Nvidia issue. If a card or chipset won't do 24p properly, it won't be in my system. Period. I don't care who makes it.

When you say "no one can do 24p consistently well" this is just plain wrong. Every ATI card that I have owned since the time that ATI properly implemented 24p did it consistently well. I cant say what Nvidia does or doesnt do. We know Intel has its issues.

Enthusiasts should seek to raise the bar by demanding simple things like video card makers supporting the few video standards that exist. If you don't think its a big deal, why not just keep quiet. Why go out of your way and minimize the issue and apologize for engineering failures?
Can I ask how you achieve this, or did you just install it and do nothing? Are you verifying it with mpchc and/or media info or how do you do it?

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post #79 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post

I think assassin meant the latter - i.e. nVidia, ATI and Intel all have issues in certain circumstances in delivering 23.976Hz refresh rate output.

That is indeed what I meant.

I thought the "consistently" part of my statement conveyed that. Apparently not.
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post #80 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 06:15 PM
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Can I ask how you achieve this, or did you just install it and do nothing? Are you verifying it with mpchc and/or media info or how do you do it?
Of course I verify it. Plus, more importantly, I can see stutters when they are present.

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That's been my experience as well. Direct connect between player and output device is the best. There will be differences between different display devices as well.

When I had my htpc outputing via hdmi to a Denon AVR to a 4in/2out hdmi switch, I had many troubles.
I was thinking about doing that. I guess I could use DVI output to projector and HDMI to AVR.
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post #82 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 07:17 PM
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Of course I verify it. Plus, more importantly, I can see stutters when they are present.
What card are you currently using?
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post #83 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mondo Rock View Post

What card are you currently using?

I use a Radeon 5750 at the moment. I think its a Visiontek. A good way to check refresh rate is with reclock. I also have a Video processor that tells me.

Using reclock with Clarkdale to fix the 24p iss works very well, by the way. The only issue is that it resamples audio so you can't really bitstream. I can't noticed any issue with audio resampling but other have.

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post #84 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post


I use a Radeon 5750 at the moment. I think its a Visiontek. A good way to check refresh rate is with reclock. I also have a Video processor that tells me.

Using reclock with Clarkdale to fix the 24p iss works very well, by the way. The only issue is that it resamples audio so you can't really bitstream. I can't noticed any issue with audio resampling but other have.

Is it just that particular model card that resamples. I havnt heard of anyone wanting to bitstream and having a problem.

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post #85 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 08:11 PM
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What Lawguy meant is: Clarkdale supports only 24.000 Hz so that ReClock increases the playback rate of the movie to match 24.000Hz, and at the same time changes the speed of the sound to force the sound to stay in sync with the video (that means resampling). This is possible only when the audio stream is LPCM. Well, this is one of the original purposes of *ReClock* (as the name indicates).
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post #86 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post

What Lawguy meant is: Clarkdale supports only 24.000 Hz so that ReClock increases the playback rate of the movie to match 24.000Hz, and at the same time changes the speed of the sound to force the sound to stay in sync with the video (that means resampling). This is possible only when the audio stream is LPCM. Well, this is one of the original purposes of *ReClock* (as the name indicates).

Oh, ok. He said he couldn't bitstream, but dosn't that mean he should still be able to bitstream tru hd and dts hd ma since no resampling is possible?

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post #87 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 08:38 PM
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Bitstreaming is always possible (with periodic repeated frame). Decoding to LPCM and resampling is also always possible (perfect playback).

There are three choices in Clarkdale/SNB (precisely speaking any GPU) + ReClock:

- video/audio/frame rate in perfect synch without bitstreaming
- video/frame rate in asynch (or synch if video clock perfectly matches the frame rate) with bitstreaming (in this case ReClock is unnecessary.)
- video/frame rate in perfect synch with crappy bitstreaming.
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post #88 of 1287 Old 05-18-2011, 11:54 PM
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Why can't we have monitors that support 48Hz or 72Hz? Then we'd solve slow desktop response and maybe make it a little easier to sync to.
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post #89 of 1287 Old 05-19-2011, 05:15 AM
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Why can't we have monitors that support 48Hz or 72Hz? Then we'd solve slow desktop response and maybe make it a little easier to sync to.
There is no need to introduce new refresh rates with the material that we have. We just need all of our equipment to adhere to the existing standards!

Most displays that support 24p don't actually show 24hz on the screen. This would be an unwatchable flicker fest. Instead, each frame is shown three or four or more times. This reduces flicker. This approach is exactly what happens with film in a movie theater, by the way. Film is 24 frames per second but projectors repeat frames multiple times to reduce flicker.

24p has its plusses and minuses. The plus is that it imparts the look of film - something that we are used to seeing in the theater. There are more minuses. 24 frames per second is really not enough frames to do motion well. We get blur and film judder. To me, this is much better than the alternatives. Watching 24p material at 60hz introduces a kind of judder that is much worse than what we get with 24p because certain frames are repeated more than others. So, we get visible starts and stops, especially on motion. These kinds of issues are why many displays now have various forms of frame interpolation. Many people like the look of frame interpolation but not me.

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post #90 of 1287 Old 05-19-2011, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by renethx View Post
What Lawguy meant is: Clarkdale supports only 24.000 Hz so that ReClock increases the playback rate of the movie to match 24.000Hz, and at the same time changes the speed of the sound to force the sound to stay in sync with the video (that means resampling). This is possible only when the audio stream is LPCM. Well, this is one of the original purposes of *ReClock* (as the name indicates).
Exactly.

People with 24p issues should give reclock a try.

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